Though, I'm not one to force myself onto someone like that, we all have feelings, emotions and desires. It's not always easy to read a given situation. And the those outlined in TFA are definitely over the line.

However, Level A and Level B outlined near the bottom of the article takes it too far. Treating people like children is not going to solve anything, it's just going to promote further awkwardness, fear and resentment.

Suggestions like Level A and Level B are sucking the life out of life. When implemented, they punish everyone just because a small minority don't know how to set their own boundaries and respect the boundaries of others.

Hopefully that puts your terror as a guy in perspective.

In most of these cases we hear about it's very, very clear that someone was using their position of power to attempt to coerce others. If you don't do that, you have nothing to feel terror about.

Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

When a guy asks before touching me, and of course I'm already interested, it makes me melt. It is so sexy and it definitely improves the mood. I just want to point to myself as one data-point.

If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model walks up to you and asks if she can rub your shoulders. Would you be like, "Uh, no, by communicating with me you have completely killed my interest"?

I hate to be this person, but yes that would kill my interest. I'd be put off by her asking to touch me without any attempt at building a rapport first - that's sort of weird, just like it'd be weird if you switched the gender roles. And if she established a rapport, I'd very slightly lean towards wishing she hadn't asked. All things being equal, yes, I'd prefer she just initiated without asking (after establishing a rapport).

I don't mean to invalidate your point, but I have this feeling you thought that example would sort of just "make it click", and it didn't (at least not for me). It seems like this is probably a preference thing.

I am the type of person who shies away from physical contact unless it is with people I feel close with. Physical attractiveness while important, is not enough to overcome the fact that I need to feel an emotional connection to let people near me in that way. If such a person asked me without building a connection with me, I'd turn cold towards them.

That being said, I don't claim to think that I am the norm or that my case is the case for every person. It is definitely a question of personal preferences and should not be treated as a universal.

(Writing this as someone who is happily married due to a series of verbal checks and confirmations. :) )

It's not about completely killing my interest, but my mood would be slightly lessened.

Also, there are some things where consent works better than others. Asking if you can give a back rub, that works pretty find. Asking if you can lightly brush their elbow, not so much.

Your example is spot on.

Explicit communication is not a barrier for me experiencing submissiveness because the fact I consented years ago to my partner doing such things to me does not make it any less fun.

I'm definitely willing to forgoe some fun on the first date to avoid having it done to me by someone I'm not into or don't feel safe around (separate variables!).

Honestly, that's just not realistic. Subtle touching is a key part of rapport and bonding (even in a platonic setting between men). It would be extremely bizarre if after a woman laughs at a joke I stopped and said "is it okay if I gently touch you on the elbow for a second as you laugh?"

I'm a huge fan of consent (ex. I almost always ask before kissing anyone) but that doesn't mean we need to extend it to absolutely everything. Humans are set up to be able to send touch-based signals which can escalate while allowing plenty of exit points.

We don't need hard rules like asking before ever touching another person (what if I accidentally brush against someone walking through a bar?). We need better training on reading social cues and a culture which calls people out when those cues are ignored.

A key part of healthy, mature flirting is leaving plenty of exit points and respecting them. Ex. it's normally fine to brush your leg against someone's leg. If they're not interested, they'll quickly pull away and it shouldn't cause too much discomfort. If they are, they'll maintain the contact.

TL;DR bodies can communicate. The problem isn't with these communications being non-verbal, but with people willfully ignoring those communications.

It's not bonding. It's a power thing, I think. "I can touch you, but if you call it out, then you're the one who is reacting and being 'sensitive'". (reversed, obv).

You may think it's an important part of platonic settings between men, but.. eh, stay away from me.

Accidentally brushing someone in a crowded bar is a red herring. (Unless it's an 'accident'.) That's completely different than invading someone's space to touch their elbow.

That's totally fine. I'm guessing you send off signals that you're uncomfortable with it.

Part of social skills is knowing how to read those signals and respecting them. There are definitely people who I take pains to not touch (due to the signals they send), even in a crowded bar.

I'll tell you it's definitely not a power thing. Most of the time, it is somewhat reciprocal. If it's not, then any well-adjusted person backs off.

"You're weird"

"I read signals well, therefore I wouldn't trigger this"

Maybe you do. That's great. Then again, maybe you don't and don't realize it.

The tech industry has a well known bias toward somewhat not socially adjusted people, or at least, not neurotypical, and the massive influx of money hasn't put the breaks on manipulators who are just there for the money and power.

So you get people who don't read signals well, and you get people who read signals and blow right through them on purpose. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

Oh, that sounds creepy.

If its creepy to ask in some situation it must be even more creepy to do in that situation.

Like, it's not mysterious magical rocket science. Leave a graceful exit path, start small and safe, and gauge their response before escalating. If you're not a dickwaffle, this'll get more positive responses without coming across as creepy or pressuring. If you're not making a game of pushing boundaries or starting with a huge power discrepancy, this process fails really gracefully. Like, really gracefully. Neurotypicals have probably done this dance with you without you or them noticing it.

but none of this exists in a vacuum. context is everything and i don't think there's a one size fits all for what would be considered creepy or not in the dating/relationship world. it depends on each other's attraction to one other, situation, mood, blah blah blah. sometimes it's romantic and bold(!) and other times it's creepy af.

THAT SAID, i think it's absurd that 1) given their working relationship and the hierarchy and 2) his knowledge of her current bf and the fact that it wasn't a date that he'd think any of that any of his actions were okay. and even doubly so if she refused your first advance. i mean how can you not read a situation like that?

my .02

Sorry but this is just absurd. Courtship doesn't (and will never) work that way.

Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships, about how all of our families and parents met and fell in love, and I'm honestly a little offended by your suggestion.

Im a woman and it works well for me. Do you have a specific technical reason for thinking it wont work?

> Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships

Saying explicit communication is useful and best-practice is not saying that everyone who doesn't do it is evil or every time it wasn't used someone was hurt. It's just a useful method for avoiding hurting people.

Yeah, it's robotic and, in most courtship contexts, weird. If a woman said "hey, I want you to ask permission before making any physical contact", I would certainly respect that, but I would find it odd and would probably be looking for a way out. Simply because "odd" means "red flag." Though I suppose it depends on the girl and how it's presented. I've never experienced that though, and my impression is that most girls I was dating wanting me to make the first move and read their nonverbal signals. That was certainly a learning process.

Now maybe it does work for you. But I think what people are saying (and I agree with them) is that it is very unusual for that expectation to exist in the context of courting. Thinking back to all my past relationships (including the one that led to my marriage), I can't think of a single one who wouldn't have been weirded out if I asked permission to put an arm around her, touch her neck, or go in for a kiss (in a setting that most people might find those actions to be an option). Everyone sitting here with me agrees (3 guys including me, 3 women, all early 30's).

Maybe my circle of friends is just different then yours in some fundamental way (we're all physicians, who maybe tend to be a bit more direct). But I think you'll find that most people think your position on this issue is too rigid and mechanical.

What about when at a nightclub? What about women who rely on easily misinterpret-able body language?

What if two people have totally consensual intercourse where one has more power over the other one?

The issue I take here is that people pretend like the issue is black and white, while it's incredibly nuanced. The other issue is that when gender comes into play, people become emotional, I would love to talk about this topic as if instead of sex the guy demanded money from the women in exchange for the deal, then I feel we could have a much more rational conversation about this.

There might be more anxiety involved in trying to find the line and getting as close to it as possible. Is a shoulder rub allowed? Can I touch her arms? Can I make a suggestive joke? I'd definitely be more anxious trying to keep that straight in my head.

You're in a comment thread about sexual assault for reference.

This has nothing to do with "men forums," thanks. People I know working in tech actually think holding eye contact is harassment. I had a female coworker complain about the vibe of another coworker who was clearly attracted to her; just the vibe, imagine how that affected other coworkers when that got around? You're free to dismiss this sentiment, but it's still something on the mind of a large group of well meaning guys.

Again, enumerating detailed descriptions feels like a good solution for everyone.

The guy clearly has an interest in you. There's nothing specific you can accuse him of, but he makes you uncomfortable. By persisting despite your attempts at rebuff he's implied that he doesn't respect your boundaries.

Maybe it'll turn out that he'll leave you alone entirely. He hasn't done any one thing you can accuse him of. But he's giving off a "vibe" (which is an inarticulate way of saying "engaging in subtle behaviors") that in your past experience have been a prelude to anything from uninvited touching to stalking to physical attack. Thus his presence makes you anxious and interferes with your ability to do work because your brain is in constant fear/alert mode.

Is this a tenable situation?