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Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by dahart on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:12PM (#14671649)
What's interesting to me reading this is the expectation that voice search should do things that text search currently doesn't do. If I ask Google about Bill Murray running for president, I presumably am looking for articles that mention the words "Bill", "Murray", and "President". I would expect to return articles that best match the query, and I would never expect Google to be able to tell me the difference between real and fake articles. For a server to answer the author's question it has to understand the question so well it can change the question into "What is the list of people that have run for U.S. president?" and then check if Bill Murray is in that list. That's a tall order.

We are moving past expecting the most word matches into expecting the server to understand what we really want. Voice search is more like the "I'm feeling lucky" button, because it takes longer; you only have time for one answer and the first answer has to be right. It comes without the expectation that you're lucky if the answer happens to be right, now we need the first result to be the rightest result there is.

So the glass is half empty. I personally prefer to see it half-full, but it's also true and the critique is more valuable and interesting than optimism.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by acdha on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:59PM (#14672009)
It seems like there's something akin to the uncanny valley effect going on here where a voice UI invites people to think about the other end of the conversation as a person and then be disappointed when they hit the edges of what it's designed to do.

There's a really interesting discussion to be had about how UI decisions can make that process smoother — I really liked https://bigmedium.com/speaking/design-in-the-era-of-the-algo... as a call for how you can make the failure modes of the system more graceful. I think a lot of the success in the next decade or so is going to come from the places which figure out good answers for not making a system which seems to promise more than it can deliver.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by makmanalp on Friday June 30, 2017 @05:53PM (#14673800)
> a voice UI invites people to think about the other end of the conversation as a person

It's not the voice UI that does this, it's the marketing.

If they sold it as "speak your google search terms", it'd work a lot better. It'd also be a lot less sexy, but that's still mostly what it is IMHO. Not to say that it isn't impressive stuff, it is! But it's highly oversold, still.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by dahart on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:24PM (#14672214)
Yes! Voice is sort-of "tactile" if you will. The process of speaking instead of typing may well cause us to expect a more human interaction. I bet they're already studying this effect and changing search results for voice searches accordingly, but it will be fun to watch how it unfolds.

Very nice article, I only skimmed so far, but I think I agree with all of it. It has a definitely pro-consumer bent that I wish would come true, but seems like trends are in the other direction. I suspect there's too much money in search and improving query understanding at scale for companies that get there to be as transparent and open and sharing as this author is asking.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by redler on Friday June 30, 2017 @03:32PM (#14673125)
The fact that we interact by voice leads toward a sort of inadvertent theory-of-mind about the other party, which makes the pulling away of the curtain with so many of the answers much more jarring. Voice interaction seems to recruit a much deeper evolutionary expectation than the much more recent phenomenon of typing and reading.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by acdha on Friday June 30, 2017 @04:50PM (#14673524)
Yes! I wonder whether that's an argument in favor of things like deliberately using quasi-robotic styles to help people recognize the limitations faster. It'll be interesting to see what product designers come up with and how the market adapts to this.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by Retra on Monday July 03, 2017 @01:03AM (#14685951)
That's some heavy speculation.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by redler on Monday July 03, 2017 @10:06AM (#14688322)
Well, this is Hacker News.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by seiferteric on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:26PM (#14671750)
Because it was sold as something better. When siri first came out it was billed as something revolutionary and that it would continuously improve as more people used it. Did that even happen? Outside of the "happy path" sort of questions, I find it rather disappointing with pre-canned responses, or just showing me search results most of the time. Now I really only use it for setting reminders or alarms.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by dahart on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:54PM (#14671959)
Totally. Me too, my use of Google Voice and Siri and Alexa has declined because I don't usually get what I want the first time. Reminders and alarms it always gets right, it's faster to set a reminder by voice than by typing. But I think you and I are illustrating how we expect more from voice search than text search. My use of text search hasn't declined like my use of voice search, and text search is just as fundamentally bad as voice search. I think it's because I can see & sift many results, and because I can easily iterate on my query when it's not quite right. Voice search can't do either easily.

Perhaps Amazon, Apple, Google and Microsoft all initially thought that the revolutionary part was being able to speak a query and have the query match what you said, and that the search part was already good enough.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ghaff on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:11PM (#14672112)
>I think it's because I can see & sift many results, and because I can easily iterate on my query

Absolutely. In fact sometimes I'm searching for something, whether in a search engine, at an ecommerce site, or whatever and I'm not getting what I want immediately. If I'm on a phone or tablet, I'll often grab a nearby laptop because it's just faster and easier to do a lot of typing and clicking on. (Less true with more recent tablets but my basic point is that there's sometimes a lot of fast iteration when I'm trying to find the answer to something non-obvious.)

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ncallaway on Friday June 30, 2017 @04:57PM (#14673558)
> But I think you and I are illustrating how we expect more from voice search than text search

I think @seiferteric's point was that the expectation may not be there because it is a voice search. That expectation is there because that's how it was marketed.

If the marketing for these things was: "Ask a question, and get search results by voice" I don't think I'd have the expectation that it find and deliver the correct answer to me.

But the marketing for all of these devices is: "It's a personal assistant! Ask it a question and you'll get an answer!"

I'm personally not convinced that the high expectations are because it's a voice interaction, but rather that the technology simply can't live up to the marketing pitch.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by bluGill on Friday June 30, 2017 @05:18PM (#14673662)
I think part of it is desire. Many people would love to have an assistant like that. There is a vague memory of the days of personal secretaries, a girl (those were sexist days) who could looks things up for you so that you can spend your efforts are other tasks. There are a lot of times when everybody could use help, but they don't have it.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by brians on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:06PM (#14672066)
Try a reminder including the word "play". The choice to play an album or open an app dominates, so it tells you it doesn't have an app with some nonsense name.

List decoding was invented by 1955. This is a set of hard problems, but very well studied ones.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by comex on Friday June 30, 2017 @03:58PM (#14673282)
Which assistant? It works for me with Siri: http://imgur.com/a/GiuMP
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by bronson on Saturday July 01, 2017 @03:49PM (#14678629)
Works with Google too, even capitalizing the movie correctly.

"Set an appointment to play Lost Boys tomorrow." "What time?"

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by freehunter on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:16PM (#14672152)
I do expect voice to do something text doesn't do, because text allows for interactions that voice doesn't. I can't skim a page of search results via voice. I'm not going to sit there and have Alexa read 10 page titles and URLs to me. I ask a question, I expect a concise voice response. Anything else is a complete failure of the UI.

Currently there is one way for a computer to interact with humans via voice: direct and unquestioning answers.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by hk__2 on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:25PM (#14672224)
> I can't skim a page of search results via voice. I'm not going to sit there and have Alexa read 10 page titles and URLs to me.

I think you can. Alexa can read you the titles and you can ask it more information about a specific title. It’s like asking the waiter which desserts they have then interrupting him because you don’t know what a pannacotta is.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by freehunter on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:53PM (#14672462)
You can, but I don't want to. It takes longer than reading, makes me sit and actually listen, and it just feels awkward to me.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by acdha on Friday June 30, 2017 @03:04PM (#14672972)
That's certainly true for most people sitting in front of a computer but I really liked the inclusive design guidelines from Microsoft[1] reminding us that there are many people for whom any particular assumption is untrue, often only temporarily or in a specific situation:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/design/inclusive

As an example, a coworker mentioned that his use of Alexa went from casual to heavy when they had a child and the ability to do things while carrying a baby suddenly became really important. I suspect there are more situations like that than we might think at first.

1. I know, 90s me is still getting used to saying that too

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ghaff on Friday June 30, 2017 @03:51PM (#14673238)
And I know a couple with a relatively young child and they love their Echo. All the tell a joke and other things along those lines that are kinda dumb to me. Or questions that I'd just as soon type on my phone or a computer but which are more natural to just speak in a family conversational setting.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ghaff on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:06PM (#14672559)
I think a good model to imagine is that you don't have any computers on you and you're talking to an assistant over the phone who has access to Google and other online resources. The types of responses you'd expect from that at least modestly intelligent assistant are probably not all that different from what you'd like to hear from a digital assistant.

If I were to ask a question that had a long list of potential responses, I'd expect them to ask me to clarify or narrow down what I'm looking for or at least explicitly ask me if I really wanted them to read the whole list.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by bluGill on Friday June 30, 2017 @05:21PM (#14673674)
I'd expect my assistant to know a fair amount about me and the current context. Using those clues a human can pick out what I really care about, at least in most cases. Even when there is a list of responses I'd expect an assistant to give a better summary when asking for clarification.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ghaff on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:22PM (#14673917)
Certainly learning my preferences is an important component of a personal assistant. e.g. I almost always go to the airport using a particular service.

That said, for those of us who don't have personal admins, there's a lot of opportunity for digital services that fall between purely self-service travel booking as it exists today and and having an assistant.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by scrooched_moose on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:27PM (#14671758)
I find it interesting that Google couldn't get the Bill Murray one. No matter what combination of "did bill murray run for president" I search for, I get a rich snippet on the results page from snopes.com which says

"Claim: Comedian Bill Murray is running for president and proclaimed religion to be "the worst enemy of mankind." Claimed by: Internet Fact check by Snopes.com: FALSE"

It would seem they are reasonably close but this is more of a product integration failure than a recognition failure.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by dahart on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:42PM (#14671871)
Great point! I get the same from Google. Looking back in the article, he only criticized Siri and Cortana on this question. He claimed none of them got it right, but didn't say specifically what Google did with it, and it's entirely possible it was a different answer before now.

Bigger picture though, Bill Murray is famous making it easier to answer questions like this. In general, does the wording of the author's question truly imply he's searching for a fact check, and do you expect Google to know that even if there are no articles that match the wording of the question? The snopes articles does contain the terms "did", and "Bill Murray", and "run for president", so we don't have any evidence that Google understands the question, we just have some content that matches the query.

The issue I see is that the computational question of search has long been trying to measure relevance by matching the query against the corpus. This Bill Murray question is an example of how that can break down. I might actually want the fake articles... and I might not. There's no way for the search engine to know without making an inference, and the expectation that mass market search engines make inferences seems pretty new to me - and I don't expect that when I do text searching. I guess I just expect voice search to push the need for question understanding and inference making even faster than text search has.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ancalimon on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:57PM (#14671989)
Heya,

My first Hacker News inclusion. I feel like there should be some rite of passage. Well, other than the sudden and unanticipated login attempts.

My testing device for Google was the Google Home speaker, which appears to have a different tolerance for reading search results. I've had it rattle off several sentences from web pages for other keywords in the list (see, for example, the boiling point of water), but for the Bill Murray question there seems to be some kind of limiter. I just re-checked, using the exact phrasing I had before, and it still says that it doesn't know, but it's learning all the time.

I'm guessing there is some kind of a relevance check for the speaker version compared to the phone version. The phone is probably happier to return any result (a la Siri), whereas the speaker appears to be making some attempt to understand what I'm asking for before reading search results.

This particular question appears to trigger the speaker not to read the search results. We can only speculate as to why: does it not find it relevant enough? Is there a reserved path on "Did xyz" questions when sent to Google Home? Am I unknowingly in the A/B testing group that doesn't get the answer? There's few ways of knowing black-box without massive data testing, but it is curious.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by dahart on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:26PM (#14672237)
Welcome! I don't know of any rite of passage, but maybe I gave you your first upvote? ;)

> I'm guessing there is some kind of a relevance check for the speaker version compared to the phone version.

I would bet on that & expect it too... I'm sure all these voice search products are experimenting with how voice search needs to be tuned differently than text search.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ewanm89 on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:59PM (#14672004)
What does "Google Home" speaker usually do when there is no clear result? On the phone google assistant just displays google search results in such a case, obviously that can't work on the "Google Home" speaker.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by ancalimon on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:07PM (#14672078)
Sometimes it'll read a page, e.g. it read a passage from Wikipedia a few times. But if it really can't decide, it'll say something like "I'm sorry, I don't know that one".
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by 7952 on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:27PM (#14671756)
You see this issue with Google Map searches. Over time it seems to have relied more and more on structured data and less on algorithmic results. But it still returns bad results when the software obviously lacks the data. Better to just say "nothing found" sometimes.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by Swizec on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:44PM (#14672374)
That's the thing. Google can do a lot of those crazy things with their little popup boxes. I've seen cases where I ask a really weird question and it summarizes an entire stackoverflow thread into a neat paragraph that answers my question. Clickthrough and the exact answer that Google showed me isn't anywhere on the page.

Also the query "did Bill Murray run for president" returns a Snopes article debunking the myth as the first result. This should totally be something a Siri thing could parse and tell you about.

https://www.google.com/search?q=did+bill+murray+run+for+pres...

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by rsj_hn on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:56PM (#14675291)
If I'm in front of a computer, I can find out information like whether Bill Murray is running for President. What I need to know if I am away from my computer -- which basically means I am walking somewhere or going somewhere in a car -- is not about what objects I can see from space, but whether a certain store is still open and what time will it close.

That is, the things you need from a digital assistant -- you really need, and you need them right now. Otherwise you wouldn't be using a digital assistant to look them up, you'd look them up on your laptop like everyone else. I know, I know, in Africa no one has a laptop and their only computing device is a phone, etc, but in the first world, access to fully powered machines with full keyboard interfaces are ubiquitous, people prefer to use these types of interfaces for general research rather then their phones, and we turn to voice assistants when we are in the middle of doing some task and need specific information to assist us in completing that task. Therefore the expectations are pretty high. The frustration level of say, getting bad information about a store being open that you are on your way to is way higher than getting bad information about the height of the Eiffel tower.

To this day, I can't find out the hours of the stores I am going to. The whole experience is really frustrating:

"Siri! When does cup-o-Java close?" shows directions to random stores "Siri! What are the hours of cup-o-Java" shows directions to other random stores "Siri! Is Cup-o-Java closed or open?" shows directions to more random stores

On the other hand, I was stunned that I could walk the Byzantine alleys of Venice and get precise information about turning left in 100 feet to get to my favorite campo. These are tiny mazes of backalleys some wide enough for just a single person to walk down, and in which no cars are allowed, but they're all precisely mapped out so that I'm never lost any more. You can drop me pretty much anywhere and google maps will guide me out of there. But it can't tell me whether the museum in my destination is open today, or how much admission costs today, or whether they accept credit cards.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by skywhopper on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:37PM (#14673975)
Voice search will not be actually useful until it can respond naturally to naturally voiced questions. The whole point of voice UI is to make things more natural for human interaction. If it's just a matter of how well computers can interpret speech, well, that's a fun parlor game, but it's not what is implicitly promised by a voice UI, and it's definitely not what's explicitly promised by the marketing for these services. And ultimately until these things can interact naturally, they are doomed to being a novelty.
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by kurthr on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:20PM (#14673907)
Since the voice interface can only really give one Answer, it needs to be more certain that the Answer is a good or common Answer rather than the best Answer. Variation in quality needs to be reduced rather than just optimization of PageRank.

It's a bit like pressing I'm Feeling Lucky for your result. I'd hope that it was more optimized for always good results rather than often great, but occasionally lousy.

Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by batbomb on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:16PM (#14672636)
What you are talking about knowledge base construction. Google does do some of that, in fact. Apple wants to get better, they just bought lattice.io
Re:I ask 100 information questions to four digital assistants by amelius on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:54PM (#14672472)
But text searches are expected to return multiple results, whereas a voice search is expected to return a single result.