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Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Friday June 23, 2017 @11:56AM (#14620077)
The reasons Washington can't come up with real solutions are simple: ideology and money.

A big chunk of Washington firmly believes that socialized medicine is evil, and they will fight it. It doesn't matter what the facts are, it's part of their identity at this point.

For the rest, the desires of insurance companies and similar get in the way. For example, the main, perhaps only reason the ACA didn't include a public option is because Joe Lieberman, Senator from a state where the health insurance industry is huge, refused to vote for a bill that included it and his vote was required for passage.

If lawmakers wanted to fix things, it would be easy: study the systems of other first-world countries and incorporate the things that work best into ours. But "something that works well" is way down on the list of priorities.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by pc86 on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:15PM (#14620251)
> study the systems of other first-world countries and incorporate the things that work best into ours

The problem with this line of thought is that the US is orders of magnitude larger, more diverse, and more complex than most European nations. For any single European nation I'd wager at least two of those are the case.

But we have a way to do this already without massive Federal overhauls - allow individual states to do what they want. This means the decisions are made closer to the people, so California can do what California wants while Mississippi can do what Mississippi wants. It also has the side benefit of California not paying for services in Mississippi.

Personally if one of the US states offered non-employer-based, single-payer healthcare I would move there in a heartbeat. If it's as successful as proposed, it would not take very long to most states to offer something similar. At that point, depending on individual implementations, it would be much easier to extend it to the Federal level.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:10PM (#14620801)
Why do size and diversity matter? Size is solved by just doing more of the same. If Germany, say, needs X doctors and Y administrators, then the US needs approximately 4X doctors and 4Y administrators. There are problems which get dramatically more difficult with scale, but I see no reason to think that this is one of them, let alone that a factor of 4 is enough to take it from tractable to intractable.

I can't even figure out how diversity would factor into it. Medical treatment depends very little on people's race or culture. I don't get it at all.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by kcorbitt on Friday June 23, 2017 @04:16PM (#14622401)
Diversity definitely makes implementing generous social programs more difficult politically. The average working-class voter in any country will be much more supportive of eg. universal healthcare if he feels like the benefits are going to people with backgrounds similar to his own, just perhaps a bit worse off, as opposed to (implied-minority) "welfare queens" living off the fat of the land. The larger and more diverse a population, the less said everyman will feel like his taxes are actually serving people he knows and trusts.

That said, I do think we're moving in an encouraging direction. The percentage of the developed world that's willing to recognize others from different cultures and backgrounds as part of their own society seems to be growing, ever so slowly and fitfully. There will be years and perhaps even decades feel like regressions, but on average it feels like things are getting better.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Saturday June 24, 2017 @02:15PM (#14626722)
I can see how that might make it more politically difficult to pass something, but it wouldn't make it harder to come up with a plan that works. A plan that works and can pass is a harder, but unfortunately I was already in the realm of fantasy the moment I started talking about looking at foreign countries to see what worked for them.
Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by glhaynes on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:44PM (#14620537)
If it's as successful as proposed, it would not take very long to most states to offer something similar.

IMO this isn't clearly true. Lots of states (especially those that currently have the worst health care outcomes) seem far more driven by the ideology that has caused their problems than by this kind of pragmatism. Example 1: the ACA's Medicare expansion.

Hell, it might even work the opposite way: proof that something worked in California could end up as an argument against it. "Candidate x wants to implement the same sort of government health care system that's taken over California. This November, send him a message that we don't do things that way here."

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by pc86 on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:47PM (#14620569)
That sounds like democracy working. Democracy means as many people as possible get the government they want. This get progressively easier as the government gets more local. Overall people are much happier with local, then state government than the federal government.[0] If the people Mississippi don't want single-payer health care, and the people in California do, I'm in favor of a system that gives both of them what they want.

[0] http://www.people-press.org/2012/04/26/growing-gap-in-favora...

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by glhaynes on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:00PM (#14620702)
Well, that's some type of democracy having some effect, yeah. But I was taking issue with the specific idea you put forward that good healthcare ideas would likely spread (in today's political environment) through the "laboratories of democracy" that are the states. It sounds good in theory; it's not so good if it doesn't happen in practice and you're poor and sick in Mississippi. You and I can move (and likely would have health care regardless). They mostly can't.

EDIT: also, I think this framing can badly mislead us: "If the people Mississippi don't want single-payer health care, and the people in California do, …". We get a picture in our head of Mississippi residents monolithically not wanting it while Californians monolithically do. In actuality it may be that 49% of Mississippi residents want it and 51% of Californians do. This is of course a broader topic (the benefits and failings of democracy and of various electoral systems) but I do think it's worth being aware when certain ways of phrasing might distort.

EDIT2: I don't at all mean to imply that your framing was intended to mislead; I don't think that at all.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by sjg007 on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:28PM (#14620951)
Individual states would need need to pool together to make single payer work (except for maybe California). As Congress regulates interstate commerce already you may as well go single payer.

But this is likely what will happen and we will get there eventually. If you are poor in a lower income red state you will be screwed for 20 years unless you move.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by justicezyx on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:27PM (#14620372)
> socialized medicine

When you put this word here, they succeeded. Socilized has a special meaning here, and it's installed through near 5 decades of propaganda (number could be wrong, you get the idea).

WHY pooling the society's resource for health care is "socialized"?!

WHY WHY WHY WHY...

When anyone examine this idea, everything falls apart. WHY? I don't know, and I will surprised anyone knows.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by gizmo686 on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:58PM (#14620684)
> WHY pooling the society's resource for health care is "socialized"?!

Because it is pooling some of societies wealth into the government to distribute as a good.

The only difference between this and full socialism is that this does not extend to the entire economy.

Also, keep in mind that a self proclaimed socialist is currently the most popular politician in the US.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:13PM (#14620834)
> WHY pooling the society's resource for health care is "socialized"?!

Because that's what the word means.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by humanrebar on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:11PM (#14620218)
> For example, the main, perhaps only reason the ACA didn't include a public option is because Joe Lieberman, Senator from a state where the health insurance industry is huge, refused to vote for a bill that included it and his vote was required for passage.

...there were 40 other senators who were not voting for the ACA. The bill didn't, and still doesn't, have enough popular support. You can't blame one play on a lost game and you can't blame one voter for a lost ballot.

Doubling down on employer provided healthcare with additional mandates didn't help their case.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by pc86 on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:18PM (#14620282)
> you can't blame one voter for a lost ballot

You can't do this in popular elections but you can absolutely do it in the legislature where everyone has a different constituency, policy portfolio, campaign contribution history, etc. Lieberman wouldn't vote for a bill with a public option, full stop. The math worked out such that Lieberman was necessary. Ergo, Lieberman killed the public option if there was no other Senator for whom the existence of a public option would have changed their Nay to a Yea. There was not, so you can absolutely lay the lack of a present day public option for health care in the US at his feet.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by humanrebar on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:38PM (#14621065)
I think you're letting Congress as a whole off to easy by scapegoating one senator. A more bipartisan bill that included a few Republicans could have been passed instead.
Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:41PM (#14621089)
No such bill existed. You might as well say that things would have been different if there were leprechaun senators.
Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by dragonwriter on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:41PM (#14621086)
> A more bipartisan bill that included a few Republicans could have been passed instead.

Assumes facts not in evidence, notably that there is any bill oriented to the policy objectives the ACA sought to acheive that Republican Senators would have supported at that time, and (for relevance regarding the responsibility for the absence of a public option in the ACA) that such a bill would include a public option of the type Lieberman opposed.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:07PM (#14620763)
I can and will blame one voter for a lost ballot. Republicans controlled 40 seats. Democrats controlled 58 and had two independents who mostly leaned their way. They needed all 60 of those votes to pass something. Lieberman was one of those independents, and he explicitly threatened to filibuster any bill that included a public option, while the other 59 accepted it.

Republicans were going to vote against the ACA no matter what it contained. That means they had no power over the content of what got passed. Lieberman had huge power over the content.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by humanrebar on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:34PM (#14621018)
No faction should force through a marginally popular, sweeping change by the skin of it's teeth.

This is one of the reasons why the Constitution and amendment process exist. The Supreme Court ruled that the passage of the ACA was technically OK (I disagree, but that's moot I guess) but they didn't rule whether it was wise.

I'm saying given the political and practical mess on this issue, it was unwise. I think partisan finger pointing is likewise a bad idea.

Re:Iowa insurance market collapse could ground young entrepr... by mikeash on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:10PM (#14621342)
60% shouldn't be considered "skin of its teeth" and historically wasn't. It only is now because the Senate has become fairly dysfunctional.

I don't see how it's "partisan finger pointing" to explain why the lack of a public option is the responsibility of a single independent senator. It vaguely fits for stating that the 40 Republicans were never going to vote for any form of the ACA, but that's really just a statement of fact.