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Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by mc32 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:20PM (#14614602)
This looks like trucking's version of off-shoring.

You get paid to train your replacements. If you don't train them, someone else will. It's a no win for them. They don't have pull or unions that commuter train operators have so it's not like they'll get to ride along and supervise the autonomous vehicle, in the long term. Instead, there may be an ops center somewhere in TX where operators intervene remotely when an irregular operating pattern pops up. Those will be fewer operators.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by infecto on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:22PM (#14615032)
I am not a trucker but from what I understood from other truckers is that this can be seen as a benefit to them. There is a lot more effort as a trucker in managing the cargo than the driving. Lots of paperwork at pickup, drop off and in between checks. There is effort to ensure the security of the cargo. I think the expectation is that wages would stay the same and truckers stop driving and start managing. Keep in mind wages are already fairly low.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by HeyLaughingBoy on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:22PM (#14615462)
Keep in mind wages are already fairly low

In comparison to a computer programmer, yes. In comparison to the nationwide average, no. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

I can immediately think of one (retired) truck driver I know who comfortably raised a family of 6 on a single salary.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by boomboomsubban on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:10PM (#14616249)
You linked a site that makes money on convincing people to spend money getting a CDL, not really a reliable source. Very few truckers are doing well, even your source wages aren't that great for most positions when you add in the other costs. And USA Today had a piece last week about one working unsafe hours and making as little as $.67 a week.

https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/news/rigged-forc...

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by taneq on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:27PM (#14616760)
The hourly wages are very low. Some truckers earn decent money because they work insane hours.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:51PM (#14615262)
Wages might stay the same, but half of them would lose their jobs.

Wages are a trucking firm's biggest expense. Why would a firm go out and buy a bunch of expensive self-driving trucks, so that they could pay the same number of people the same wages.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by infecto on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:24PM (#14615472)
Someone still needs to accompany the truck. Sure perhaps in the distant future this is not true but at least for the generation of current truckers a person will still be necessary.

Yes wages are the biggest expense but I think the big pushed for self-driving trucks is 1) Reduced liability 2) Trucks can be operating nearly 24hrs a day. 3) Greater fuel efficiency.

So sure some will lose their jobs but I think half is overly pessimistic.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by hueving on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:15PM (#14616269)
Unless the drivers are allowed to sleep while the truck is driving, then they can't operate any more hours than they operate now.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by flukus on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:36PM (#14616365)
Long stretches on open highway will be the first place we allow drivers to be completely hands off.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by mousa on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:23AM (#14617182)
I`m sure The first driverless cars for the public will start being available for rides in Silicon Valley or AZ and just on the regular roads they know very very well. I've still never seen one on the highway.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by fooker on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:10AM (#14617309)
You can spot the Google self-driving car on 101 and 280.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by mertd on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:00PM (#14615320)
You assumed that the trucking volume will stay the same when the cost goes down significantly.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:04PM (#14615357)
If the cost of electricity halves, will you start using twice as much electricity?

Halving the cost of transporting goods will not double the demand for transporting goods. Consumer budgets are fixed, and transportation is a very small fraction of the price of goods that consumers buy.

Dropping the cost of transport by 30%, because you only need to employ half the truckers, will not double demand. Unlike the before-after world of trucking, air travel, container shipping, etc, there isn't a mountain of businesses that suddenly become viable when long-haul costs get slashed by a third.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:10PM (#14615396)
It won't double it but it will be close in some locales. It would also slightly decrease the cost of a heck of a lot of things.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:13PM (#14615408)
Exactly which categories of businesses are sitting on their hands, going 'Golly - we'd make and sell so much more of our product, if only shipping & handling were 30% cheaper'?

What fraction of the economy do they make up?

What if efficiency gains are not 2x, but 10x? What if you'll only need to employ one trucker to do the job of 10? Do you think demand for trucking will go up 10x? This isn't a web framework.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by TJ-14 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:28PM (#14615492)
Everything that you buy online, in a Walmart, or is otherwise manufactured a city away from where it's sold?

Trucking costs are built into most products. My grocery store sells apples from California. If the cost of trucking them to me goes down, those apples will decrease in cost and they will potentially sell more apples.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by Spooky23 on Friday June 23, 2017 @09:08PM (#14623860)
Shipping probably cost less than the plastic container.

Automation of driving is all about making people with lots of capital richer. Efficiency is just the dream -- this stuff will dramatically increase costs of shipping as capacity is constrained.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:34PM (#14615525)
The demand will not rise 1:1, that's a given. It will rise the same way that when gas is cheap people are more likely to take road trips.

For example, I just requested quotes for waterjetting some stuff today. If LTL shipping were cheap enough to I'd look outside the high CoL sphincter of the country where I happen to reside but instead I'm stuck paying a premium because the local cost of everything is high. There's also a cylinder head in my garage for a 60s Ford I'd like to give to someone who needs it but nobody needs it bad enough to pay for me to ship it across the country.

At the higher volume levels similar stuff happens. A construction company may source steel from farther away to undercut it's competition. You can bet the logistics people at Walmart (and anyone else with a big fleet) are drooling over all the optimizations they could implement if trucks could run like call centers.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:40PM (#14615868)
> The demand will not rise 1:1, that's a given.

This is the only point I seek to make.

If salaries are 60% of the cost of shipping, and self-driving trucks make drivers twice as productive, costs will drop 30%.

This will bring a demand increase of less then 30%. Let's say 15%.

... Doing the math, it looks like 42% of truckers just lost their jobs. But at least they can buy more apples with the money they no longer have.

The bigger the productivity gain, the worse it will look for them.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by stale2002 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:28PM (#14616322)
Why would you think this?

Lots of products have price elasticity of greater than 1.

Shipping seems like a very elastic industry. If anything, demand would increase by more than 1% for every 1% decrease in cost.

This is because shipping costs if shipping costs are low enough, then you can build something for cheap somewhere else and then ship stuff across the country to high cost of living locations.

YOU wouldn't ship stuff more, but industry would.

IE imagine if something costs 1/3 if it is made in China.

If shipping costs are more then you save, then nobody would ship it. But if shipping costs go down, now you can easy get those cost benefits of across world or across country manufacturing.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:07PM (#14620762)
Amdahl's law. Shipping is only useful when you have goods to ship. Unless you're selling bricks, shipping is a small portion of the price of most products. Reducing the cost of shipping, which is already a small portion of the price of the product will not result in price elasticity of greater then 1.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by chaostheory on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:28PM (#14615787)
> If the cost of electricity halves, will you start using twice as much electricity?

Possibly since not all my cars are electric yet.

You can also see this happening for other resources

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/Making-the-Modern-World

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:43PM (#14615883)
There's an obvious difference between various resources. If a cross-country airplane ticket cost $4000, instead of $400, air travel would be much less then 1/10th what it is now. A lot of people will fly somewhere for $400. Almost nobody will fly somewhere for $4000.

On the other hand, if the price of that ticket dropped from $400 to $360, we wouldn't see a 10% increase in passenger volume. The set of people who will fly somewhere for $360, but won't for $400 is tiny.

I posit that trucking is in the latter, rather then the former category. It's already cheap.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by chaostheory on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:54PM (#14616172)
> It's already cheap.

I disagree. Given companies like Amazon, it is currently not cheap enough. I would argue that it will take longer before it's 'cheap'. The appetite for 'free shipping' is still growing and it's very different from the demand for airplane tickets. Kind of like with your electricity example, you're missing parts of the big picture.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:46PM (#14616409)
What's not cheap is the last mile. We're talking about long-haul trucking, here.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by chaostheory on Friday June 23, 2017 @10:13AM (#14619266)
For companies like Amazon and Walmart, there's no such thing as cheap enough especially when it's tied to shipping.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:05PM (#14620745)
Of course you want to cut costs.

But what percentage do trucking expenses make, of their overall sales receipts?

Will their sales double if the cost of trucking drops by a third?

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by chaostheory on Friday June 23, 2017 @06:16PM (#14623185)
in Walmart's case it would allow them to offer free shipping for even more items. For other companies it would allow them to offer free shipping or better terms for free shipping (i.e. you have to buy less to get it).

Yes I could be wrong but I feel further lowering the costs of long distance trucking would help increase eccomerce sales for retailers which in turn would further increase demand for it

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by 0xffff2 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:42PM (#14615577)
If you're still paying the same number of truck operators the same wage, how are costs going to go down at all? Self-driving trucks certainly aren't going to be cheaper to buy or maintain than their non-sentient counterparts... What other factors drive the cost of truck transportation?
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by stale2002 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:03PM (#14615681)
Because the same number of truck operators can now drive 3 trucks at once.

Cost stay the same, but trucking capacity triples.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:08PM (#14620783)
Precisely. Someone said that once driving is automated, truckers will only be responsible for cargo management, with a few people standing by for a fleet, ready to take over manually if autopilot breaks.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by eduren on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:26PM (#14615063)
Yup, end-of-the-line logistics would be an easily transitioned to stopgap measure. Some former truckers would be able to stay local and handle loading/unloading. Not as many as are currently on the road, but every little bit of transitioning helps.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by Spooky23 on Friday June 23, 2017 @08:54PM (#14623818)
Trucker wages are not low. It's a middle class job in many cases and a decent semiskilled job in others.

Most of those roles managing bullshit at the head end will go away as the robot fleets consolidate and the current carriers die off. Customers will have to take or leave on whatever terms the carrier demands -- just like the old railroad days.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by bluGill on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:22PM (#14615035)
It doesn't help that human drivers are fundamentally unsafe (even if you restrict the discussion to sober drivers). Making computers safer than human drivers (not perfect) is enough for me to restrict human drivers to private tracks. I am not the only person who has lost a loved friend because of a careless driver.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by throw2016 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:37PM (#14615153)
There is no data to make this assertion about computer driven vehicles.

There is little basis to declare human drivers 'fundamentally unsafe' given the proportion of accidents pales in comparison to the gigantic volume of vehicles on roads worldwide over varied road and traffic conditions.

It can be speculated automated vehicles may require constraints on roads in which case it becomes apples to oranges. And human drivers equipped with the kind of technology and sensors on self driven cars would be much safer.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by bluGill on Friday June 23, 2017 @11:09AM (#14619701)
> There is no data to make this assertion about computer driven vehicles.

Today that is true. I am speculating when I say that autonomous vehicles will be safer than humans drivers. There is enough effort going into developing them that we will soon have that data though.

Google's data is already showing promise that the autonomous car is likely to be safer, but they don't have enough miles to be significant.

> There is little basis to declare human drivers 'fundamentally unsafe' given the proportion of accidents pales in comparison to the gigantic volume of vehicles on roads worldwide over varied road and traffic conditions.

10.6 deaths per 100,000 people is enough for me to call humans fundamentally unsafe. (though cancer and other medical conditions are bigger)

Since humans cannot be equipped with the sensors a computer can (ie eyes on the back of your head) it isn't fair to compare the as if situation.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by adrianN on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:51AM (#14617256)
Humans have only two eyes and terrible reaction times. They also get distracted easily and tend to act emotionally often. There is little data to show that computers are better drivers, because currently they aren't, but they lack human weaknesses and are safer than humans in many other situations (planes, trains...).
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by bicubic on Friday June 23, 2017 @05:55AM (#14618040)
No, there's just not enough data.

While computers lack human weaknesses, they bring a slew of new ones. Computers have no situational awareness, no context, are vulnerable to hacking, respond in predetermined ways which can be manipulated or abused, etc.

There just is not enough evidence to make the claim that ubiquitous autonomous cars will be any safer than human drivers on shared roads. There are many known unknowns and who knows how many unknown unknowns left to discover and mitigate with this tech.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-dri...

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by kushti on Friday June 23, 2017 @07:46AM (#14618461)
But also computeres are easily being possessed by WannaCry and other malicious activities. It is pretty sad that all the praising of AI doesn't take into account the adversarial nature of the World.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vlunkr on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:41PM (#14615177)
> it's not like they'll get to ride along and supervise the autonomous vehicle

You don't think so? Seems like an unmanned truck would be a great target for theft.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by tdb7893 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:50PM (#14615251)
It's a little harder because you can lock it with a pretty significant lock, it's generally moving, and it has a ton of location and camera data. If the police are notified of your exact position when you start the robbery it's probably hard to get enough stuff to make it actually worth the risk. The hard part isn't getting the truck to stop (which is trivially easy now), it's actually getting stuff and getting away with it.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by yardie on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:49PM (#14616839)
Police aren't going to follow every automated truck on the road. And a balance has to be found or PDs will ignore shipping companies. Too many false alarms; they stop responding.

So by the time a truck is stopped, realizes a robbery is in progress, contacts command, who assesses if it's a real event, who contact local police, who send a cruiser to check investigate. They thiefs could have gotten away with quite a lot.

Btw, a grand theft rarely rises to immediate action. City PD have bigger concerns, most of the Midwest is sparsely populated. That leaves the bored suburb PD who'll be in the most responsive.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by smileysteve on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:15AM (#14617321)
What is it that you think the current person involved's course of action? Are you suggesting that the person in a truck regularly defends its load from piracy today?

2 aspects

1) If drivers are at such danger that they do more than contact police then the liability would require they have trained security with them.

2) Drivers themselves are a major security vulnerability, how susceptible is a driver to being paid off by a "pirate". [and there was a recent article in Outside about how healthy nuts go through a lot of truck theft]

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by yardie on Friday June 23, 2017 @07:50AM (#14618473)
A driver calls 911 and is immediately routed to the local PD. Do remember a robbery (a person) has a higher priority than theft (just property)
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by Retric on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:09PM (#14616245)
These trucks often have 1,000,000+$ worth of cargo. That's worth a fair amount of risk and effort even if you lose 80% of it on the black market that's still better than most robberies.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by stale2002 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:40PM (#14616381)
Sure, but you could also just rob people NOW.

Just go on an open stretch of road in the country side with a firearm and open fire through the truck windows. A truck driver isn't going to be able to defend themselves.

You might argue that this doesn't happen because criminals are afraid of getting caught by the police and sent to jail.

But, if anything, the risks would be even greater for a self driving truck that has dozens of always on cameras recording, GPS tracking, and an emergency police call system.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by lhuser123 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:31PM (#14616337)
> These trucks often have 1,000,000+$ worth of cargo.

That's true, but the problem is which one? Most of them are dry vans that you don't know what's inside, and/or not worth the risk. My loaded trailer was once opened and they didn't touch the merchandise. The only loss was the lock.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dx034 on Friday June 23, 2017 @04:59AM (#14617847)
Most Fedex trucks already have $100k+ worth of cargo and only one person driving it. Doesn't mean it's easy to rob. Going through 80,000lb of shipments to find those that are worth enough is very time consuming and the truck will be hard to hide while you're doing it.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dx034 on Friday June 23, 2017 @04:57AM (#14617839)
Much harder than a manned one. You can secure unmanned trucks better than manned trucks. Truckers need to be able to open the truck which is a weakness currently. With autonomous vehicles you don't have that. Camera data allows you to see theft earlier (currently it sometimes happens while the trucker is sleeping in the front) and directly report it to the police. The video also provides evidence and helps the police identifying the exact vehicle and location.

I would compare it to banks. ATMs are still a target of theft but it's much harder to crack them compared to robbing a bank where tellers have access to cash. The same will be true for trucks. There will be some thefts that are more sophisticated (and successful) but the overall rate will go down.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dx034 on Friday June 23, 2017 @04:52AM (#14617818)
I think the concept looks good. They will still use truckers for some parts of the trip (and will have to do so for a while). The good thing is that those truckers can work 8 hour shifts close to home. And it won't really be a topic for outsourcing because the latency would be too high, so control centers will have to be somewhat close to the truck (at least same continent).

Semi-autonomous driving of trucks could change the job for the better. It would cost a lot of jobs but then again, few people become truck drivers because they love being on the road for days. For most it's a job and they'd be happy to take another one. And there is currently little evidence that no new jobs would come up as they always have for past disruptions.