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Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ionised on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:21AM (#14593144)
I think (at least a lot of) those of us that voted remain knew there would be a massive watering down of civil liberties and protections should we leave the EU.

The UK has never suffered occupation under National Socialism or Soviet Union like most of Europe did so we don't have the same fear of authority creep, which is unfortunate because it absolutely is happening here.

People in the UK are infuriatingly trusting of their rulers.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by DaiPlusPlus on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:14AM (#14593347)
> People in the UK are infuriatingly trusting of their rulers.

No, just the readers of the reactionary black-top press.

What's infuriating is erosion of civil liberties that has happened under both Labour and Conservative governments in the past 30+ years - I blame it on the fundamental design of the office of the Home Secretary - whose job-description is seemingly to always put matters of national security (and the reactionaries' opinions...) above such trivial concerns as privacy or liberty. Fortunately this trend can be reversed if an equivalent opposing office, a hypothetical "Secretary of Sensibleness", existed with veto rights over the Home Secretary.

I thought we came close with the new Secretary for Culture, Media and Sport, but it seems like a holding position for unwanted or up-and-coming MPs than a position of any consequence (London Olympics notwithstanding).

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ue_ on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @07:22AM (#14593622)
As a loony lefty myself, I find it really disappointing that Labour has decided to take the turns it has with regard to protecting civil liberties. This is just about my only qualm with the leftist parties in the UK; they have little or no emphasis on protecting the right to privacy, freedom of expression etc. and even the right to possess certain drawings, which was made illegal in 2009, as I remember via the proposal of a Labour MP.

Is it really so much to ask for a democratic Socialist party that favours protecting civil liberties? One would think it's in the interest of the proletariat. Oscar Wilde would be in favour of it.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ionised on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:44AM (#14594134)
> I find it really disappointing that Labour has decided to take the turns it has with regard to protecting civil liberties. This is just about my only qualm with the leftist parties in the UK; they have little or no emphasis on protecting the right to privacy, freedom of expression etc.

The issue here is that Labour governments under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were decidedly NOT leftist. They were very much a Tory-lite neoliberal party. Remnants of those priests of a dying religion still plague the PLP today and spent the better part of Corbyn's leadership attempting to undermine him.

My MP is Angela Eagle. A self-described socially progressive lesbian that you would imagine would be on the side of civil liberties and democracy, yet her record speaks for itself;

- Refused to vote against Tory welfare cuts

- Voted in favour of the war in Iraq

- Voted in favour of the bombing of Libya

- Voted three times to block investigations into the decision to go war in Iraq

- Voted in favour of national identity cards

- Voted in favour of Theresa May's Investigatory Powers Bill (legalised mass surveillance of Britain)

She is the kind of 'leftist' that made the Labour party utterly right-wing.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by mcv on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:01AM (#14594239)
A couple of years ago, when the LibDems supported Cameron's government, I concluded that the UK's political system was made up of 3 conservative parties. Both Blair's New Labour and the LibDems are an utter disappointment.

If I lived in England (I don't), I'd be pissed I couldn't vote for the SNP. They seem to be the only sane party there. It would be interesting to see them gain seats south of the border.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ue_ on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:55AM (#14594209)
That's an interesting point and I'm inclined to agree with you there. I don't know if it's an urban legend or not, but apparently when Thatcher was questioned on what her greatest acheivement was, she answered 'New Labour'.

It's a real shame what the options have been in terms of electable leftist parties and policies in the past few years, so I'd very much agree with you. As to what Corbyn is going to do about it, I don't know, but I'm not a pessimist in this regard.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by gadders on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:28AM (#14594876)
>> even the right to possess certain drawings

These would be drawings of child pornography, just to clarify.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ue_ on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:58AM (#14595122)
Are you implying that the restriction is right, because of the content, even how disgusting as it may be? I don't think drawings should be censored, and I see no basis behind censoring them.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by gadders on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:00AM (#14595133)
I think that it is a relevant factor for people to consider to make a view on whether the policy is correct or not.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ue_ on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:04AM (#14595149)
It's worth viewing in the larger context though - it shows that the legislature has no problem censoring things, even possession of certain things, without evidence. In my opinion that sets a rather big precedent, whether you disagree with the specific content in this instance or not.

In terms of the principle, the actual content shouldn't matter in the slightest.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Radim on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:34AM (#14593199)
That's an interesting read -- wasn't the main "leave" argument pretty much to avoid Socialism, the new Soviet Union and creepy external authority (EU)? Preserve freedom?

From the outside, hilariously, it looks like both sides claim the same ultimate goal.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ionised on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:52AM (#14593266)
My opinion as someone who wished to remain in the EU despite its (many) problems is that those who voted to leave based on a wish to preserve sovereignty, freedom and democracy were woefully misinformed and perhaps even deliberately led astray by demagogues and fascists.

But then again they might say the same about my wish to remain part of the union.

I value effective regulation, worker protections, considerations of civil liberties and democracy and I made a choice to vote remain in the EU knowing full well that it is far from perfect.

I trust the EU to act in my interests a hell of a lot more than my own country's shit-show of career-politician Eton schoolboys, unelected Lords and sycophantic royalists embodying the very notion of hereditary privilege.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:52AM (#14593264)
Leavers seemed to fall into one of two camps, one was primarily concerned with high levels of immigration, the other talked about freedom from EU bureaucracy.

The agitators mostly seemed to come from the second group but were happy enough to stoke the fears of the first.

Neither group appeared to have any coherent arguments to me.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by arethuza on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:07AM (#14593319)
Those on the right in the UK see the EU as a fundamentally a socialist enterprise as the EU has views on workers rights and human rights.

Those on the (far) left in the UK see the EU as a fundamentally a capitalist enterprise as it is about free trade and ensuring supplies of cheap labour to keep wages depressed.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by deepnet on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:09AM (#14593327)
Quite the opposite actually.

The UK is a mixed economy, we have both Capitalism and Socialism and we like it - our safety-net welfare state and the NHS save lives everyday.

EU membership is a shield for former soviet satellite states to join the West and escape Russian influence.

The main leave "argument" was £350,000,000 was being given to the EU and could save the beloved NHS - this turned out to be a downright lie.

Many of the other popular arguments were equally false and fearmongery about out of control EUrocrats legislating on the curvature of bannanas and attacks on the British sausage and that farmers would be better off outside the common market - all very jingoistic.

It has emerged that there was a lot of carefully crafted individually targeted Facebook adverts that played on voters fears derived from personal data held outside the UK (and outside UK data laws), sadly these went undocumented so we may never know the extent of the falsehoods or their level of influence.

The UK electoral commission has expressed concern over this type of campaigning as no-one knows what is being promised or how much was spent on it.

There has been an effort to try to document these dark ads for the recent election where they seem to have been much less effective.

Many Brits feel conned as the referendum was pitched as being only advisory but is now being taken as iron-clad and a 4% majority of those who offered an opinion is very little mandate to enact such major constitutional change.

As the realities for science funding, farming subsidies have kicked polls are reporting many Brexiters have changed their tune. Goldman Sax's relocation to Europe is a bellweather for the realities for the financial industry which is close enough to Tory hearts that one hopes they'll snap out of their dreams of Empire and Commonwealth.

Hopefully the staggering level of incompetence so far demonstrated by David Davis' negotiating team will be the rope that hangs them and we'll get a second real referendum.

The alternative Red White and Blue Hard Brexit promised by Teresa May is not good for anyone in the UK unless they are shorting the pound.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by nvarsj on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:24AM (#14593996)
I agree with a lot of what you said. But it's simply not true that "Many Brits feel conned". The majority still wants to leave EU. That's why both Labour and Conservative MPs are pro brexit. Only LibDems are pro-remain, and they only got a handful of seats in the last general election. The brexiteers won, unfortunately. The only question now is how bad it will be.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ionised on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:35AM (#14594077)
> The majority still wants to leave EU. That's why both Labour and Conservative MPs are pro brexit.

This is not really accurate.

Firstly, the majority that initially voted to leave was 37% of the population. As far as I am aware that number has slightly decreased in terms of supporters, but even if the opposite were true it is still less than half of the population that actively support leaving.

Secondly, these MP's are only 'pro-Brexit' insofar as they know it has to happen regardless of their own beliefs and coming out against it now would be political suicide. No matter what you think here, in this last General Election people did not vote for parties based on their Brexit stance. They voted based on whether they wanted 5 more years of Tory rule. Tht issue was a far higher priority than Brexit.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by gadders on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:53AM (#14595076)
You're quite correct. The proper phrase "The majority of people that could be bothered to vote still wants to leave the EU".
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:03AM (#14594260)
You have to remember we have FPTP voting, not STV or any other form of PR.

I'd have voted LibDem but you only get one vote and my main concern was "try to halt NHS privatisation" leaving me to vote against the Tories and so for whoever has most chance of winning against them.

There's no scope in General Elections for any nuance in voting.

LibDems openly supported this line, "vote against the Tory party".

Meanwhile in Scotland it seems SNP lost votes not because of their governance, per se, but because people were using it as a proxy for voting against a further Scottish referendum.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by mcv on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:30AM (#14594439)
True. If the Brits really wanted to undo the referendum, they should have voted en-masse for the LibDems. They didn't. Worse: the Tories remain the largest party despite their losses. Clearly a lot of Brits still support the hard-line Brexit of Theresa May.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by deepnet on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:43AM (#14595002)
It is impossible to conclude this given Brexit was far from the only issue - ending austerity and saving the NHS were big priorities too.

This doesn't work so well under the UK's First Past The Post system.

If you wanted to get the Tories out then feeling one was throwing away a vote for the Lib-Dems in a seat were they are too far behind is one argument for proportional representation.

Also the Lib-Dems lost a lot of trust with the coalition with the Tories, many left the Lib Dems as they felt betrayed by this.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by mcv on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @04:27AM (#14601937)
True, proportional representation would have given a far more accurate representation, and the Tories didn't get as many votes as their number of seats suggests, but still, they got enough votes to remain the largest party. That's far more support for May's mad rampage than I expected.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by jacquesm on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:49AM (#14593472)
The main reason for brexit that I have sussed out is that it makes the Tories more powerful because they'll be the same sized fish but in a much smaller pond. So on a relative level their power increases and as long as the country doesn't collapse to such a degree that this undoes the advantages they come out ahead.

That last assumption may end up not to hold water in the longer term.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by mcv on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:25AM (#14594406)
Basically the UK doesn't want the EU government forcing freedom on them.

Homegrown oppression over foreign freedom.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by skocznymroczny on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:54AM (#14593490)
It's ironic, because many people that were under Soviet Union feel like European Union is creeping dangerously closely towards it, with centralized planning (Germany) and silencing of dissenting voices (if people vote against something in referendum, just run a fear campaign and repeat the referendum).
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by jussaying2 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:20AM (#14593967)
Do you have any sources to support your assertions on centralized planning done by Germany, or decisions overturned by repeated referendums?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by NLips on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:37AM (#14594084)
This is an oft-mentioned idea in the UK. See here for a list of state EU referenda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_Eur...

The only repeat referenda seem to be ones where: 1) a motion was denied 2) ammendments were made to change or garuantee parts of the motion 3) the motion was subsequently passed

In the anti-EU crowd, this has morphed into "repeatedly re-run a referendum until they get the result they want"

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by gadders on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:25AM (#14594854)
I think leaving the EU was absolutely fear of authority creep, the increasing authority creep of the EU.

I'd be interested to see what authority creep you think is happening in the UK right now. I can see no evidence of it.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by nf05papsjfVbc on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:42AM (#14593446)
Given that the British were on the other side of that transaction for quite some time (occupying territories, leaving people fighting etc.), it's unlikely they think of such things as a risk.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by dom0 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @07:37AM (#14593708)
The UK is already a solid police state, they didn't need to leave the EU to implement that. Of course, it can always get worse.