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Re:Metadata is the real data by cryptonector on Thursday June 01, 2017 @01:20PM (#14462333)
You can encrypt all you like. It won't help.

Suppose you encrypt all your SMTP/SUBMIT traffic. If your upstream is a commercial provider, then they will be subject to subpoenas. If you run your own upstream, then watching who it connects to will often be sufficient to gather metadata of interest.

Consider TLS. Before you can use it you must have used DNS. Today all DNS resolution goes in the clear. So game over right there. Eventually your client's DNS communication with a shared recursive resolver will not be in the clear, but the operator of that resolver will be subject to subpoenas, so game still over. Let's say we did deploy DJB's encrypted DNS solution. Well, you can still see which domains people are talking to, roughly, at least as long as they don't share nameservers, and if they do... You can see where this is going. Now let's say you did get DNS resolution securely anyways, well, now you have to connect to some IP address, and if it's not hosting many services, then game over, and if it is hosting many services, then SNI will be game over anyways (TLS 1.3 requires SNI). SNI cannot be encrypted.

The problem really is that metadata can't really be encrypted.

Mind you, criminals are defeated by data encryption -- mostly anyways.

And forcing governments to use subpoenas does mean increasing the cost of metadata gathering. Plus there won't be infinite retention requirements, perhaps. So, encryption does help somewhat, which means we must do it -- it's just not a complete solution.

Re:Metadata is the real data by super-io on Thursday June 01, 2017 @02:29PM (#14463027)
"... but the operator of that resolver..."

The operator of the resolver cache is supposed to be the user, not some third party (e.g., OpenDNS/Cisco, etc.).

IOW, the cache is meant to be running on the user's computer not some third party computer (e.g., OpenDNS/Cisco, etc.).

Using remote (i.e. third party) recursive resolver caches has never been recommended. If anyone is recommending that then they are ignoring the advice of the original author.

(There are other reasons to use a local cache, even if not to encrypt outgoing queries, e.g., it reduces/eliminates the risk of cache poisoning.)

If you look, you may find there are implementations that did follow the author's advice, e.g., a resolver that only accepts queries from 127.x.x.x.

What is missing to have a complete encrypted DNS solution? Authoritative nameservers that implement the system.

The recursive part of the system already works. It is controlled locally by users.

Authoritative nameservers for www sites however are run by third parties. Cooperation is needed.

As for TLS, there may be an alternative encryption solution forthcoming. Similar to encrypted DNS, it will be a small program running on the user's computer that encrypts outgoing packets. An ssl wrapper sort of like stunnel but better. It will not rely on establishing an "encrypted tunnel" like TLS. It will encrypt each packet separately.

Re:Metadata is the real data by cryptonector on Friday June 02, 2017 @10:55AM (#14470330)
And yet that's not how it works. Many systems are happy to use whatever resolver DHCP tells them to -- usually their ISP's or their router's. If it is close enough to the user, then all queries might as well go in the clear, and once again you're subject to metadata gathering that way.
Re:Metadata is the real data by super-io on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @08:56PM (#14502907)
I do not use DHCP. (Nor do I use ARP.) For a small home network I do not need it.

I run a private root and a private nameserver that serves encrypted DNS packets from a datacenter. "Pseudo authoritative": the zone contains the third party addresses I need. All DNS queries are encrypted. Sent from localhost resolver to private nameserver. Nothing in the clear. That is how it works.

There will always be metadata gathering on the internet (access logs). But there does not have to be unencrypted (DNS) packets or third party DNS resolvers.

Re:Metadata is the real data by ouid on Thursday June 01, 2017 @05:01PM (#14464684)
I don't know much about the technical side of this, but isn't this what onion routing is for?
Re:Metadata is the real data by cryptonector on Friday June 02, 2017 @10:57AM (#14470341)
Tor? And yet that doesn't seem to work very well. It seems U.S. agencies operate many Tor exit nodes, no? Also, if it can be fingerprinted at all (usually it can) then you stick out like a sore thumb when you use it.
Re:Metadata is the real data by mirimir on Thursday June 01, 2017 @07:33PM (#14465981)
Yes, metadata can't be encrypted. And it can't be eliminated.

But it can be obfuscated enough to be, in practice, virtually useless. A single VPN service provides no anonymity. Tor provides some anonymity, using onion routing. There are three relays in normal circuits. Each of them knows where data comes from, and where it's going to. But with at least three, the entry and exit relays don't know each other.

But there are vulnerabilities. The relay early bug allowed CMU researchers to communicate between their malicious entry and exit relays, and so de-anonymize users and onion services. That bug is fixed, but of course there may be others.

However, onion routing can also be applied to VPN services. I'm typing this through a nested chain of VPNs. And one can readily use Tor via nested VPN chains. So adversaries would need to compromise multiple servers in different jurisdictions, walking through Tor and VPNs, in order to identify me. Or they could exploit intercepts from network edges with traffic analysis. But it wouldn't be easy.

Re:Metadata is the real data by Zetaphor on Thursday June 01, 2017 @09:22PM (#14466708)
What kind of speeds do you get with that setup?
Re:Metadata is the real data by mirimir on Thursday June 01, 2017 @11:56PM (#14467325)
Through three nested VPNs, about 10 Mbps each way, with 100-150 ms rtt. Plus Tor, about 1-3 Mbps each way, with 500 ms rtt or more.
Re:Metadata is the real data by patrick_haply on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:02AM (#14467577)
You must have a really good internet connection. I pay close to $200 USD/mo for a wireless, 10Mbps max connection, and that's literally the best I can get unless I were to personally invest in running a fiber-optic line to my house.
Re:Metadata is the real data by mirimir on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:24PM (#14473431)
Yes, I have a decent uplink. And I use fast VPN services.

With 10 Mbps, you should be able to get 3-5 Mbps through nested VPNs. I use UDP for all of them, so there's no retransmission chaos. As you add VPNs to the chain, bandwidth doesn't necessarily go down. But rtt increases, of course.

Re:Metadata is the real data by bluGill on Thursday June 01, 2017 @02:19PM (#14462931)
My upstream commercial provider is not a US company, which makes a subpoena an international incident: a much higher bar. I also pay them for the service precisely because I want them to consider my best interest: they are likely to fight broad subpoenas. (they have admitted to giving data for a few subpoenas, but this is a small percent of their customers not everyone)
Re:Metadata is the real data by cryptonector on Friday June 02, 2017 @11:08AM (#14470424)
But now you live by their rules, which may or may not be as generous as the U.S. rules, and which you may not be familiar with. Worse, you may live under both rules since they may cooperate in ways you're not aware of.
Re:Metadata is the real data by amelius on Thursday June 01, 2017 @01:48PM (#14462621)
> Today all DNS resolution goes in the clear.

Yes, but I suppose you could decrease the signal-to-noise ratio by doing random DNS searches.

Re:Metadata is the real data by tgragnato on Thursday June 01, 2017 @01:57PM (#14462700)
Setting up unbound to use dnssec and tor is super-easy too.

And once you set up the router, the cost of configuration is zero.

Re:Metadata is the real data by fulafel on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:18AM (#14467433)
Dnssec still has your data in the clear, it just signs the data. (And is not supported by most domains)
Re:Metadata is the real data by cryptonector on Friday June 02, 2017 @11:11AM (#14470451)
DNSSEC only gives you two things, and only when all zones on the path to the domains you're looking at are signed: authentication of the response data, and authenticated denial of existence (NXDOMAIN).

DNSSEC does NOT encrypt requests nor responses.

Re:Metadata is the real data by cryptonector on Friday June 02, 2017 @11:10AM (#14470436)
Probably not. First of all, you'd need a large list of domains to query for randomly. Second, you'd have to actually have traffic with them, because if all you do is look up their info, but you connect only to the ones you want to talk to, then it's clear which ones you're talking to.