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Re:Who Owns England? by branchless on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:23PM (#14405487)
Because land is where the real power is and the establishment don't want you to know that. They tax income instead of land. They don't want the tide turning on rentiers.
Re:Who Owns England? by pm90 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:28PM (#14405539)
This is wayy too close to the truth. Historically, the wealthy and elite have dis-proportionally been landowners. And unlike money or precious metals, land actually holds value pretty well and, most importantly, can easily be handed down generations.
Re:Who Owns England? by mattgibson on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:56PM (#14405720)
> the wealthy and elite have dis-proportionally been landowners

I'd put that the other way around, saying the land owners have disproportionately ended up as the wealthy and powerful. The ownership of land and the huge unearned income derived from renting it to the masses looks more like cause than effect to me.

Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:12PM (#14405828)
If you think people are wealthy and elite because they have got land, how do you explain how they got the land?

I think either they bought it from the Crown, because they were wealthy, or they were granted it from the Crown, because they were part of the elite and did something for the Crown.

Since you think it was the other way around, how do you explain how they got the land?

Re:Who Owns England? by mattgibson on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:02PM (#14406178)
In the England at least, the system was roughly that the crown owned all the land through conquest (1066), then gave chunks of it to trusted nobles as a quid pro quo for fighting in the war that they just won. The nobles used the rent from these lands to maintain private armies which kept the peasants in check and the rent flowing, provided they raised an army on demand for the king as and when required.

There was no necessity to be wealthy first (although as you point out, this was often the case). Trouble is, if they were wealthy to start with, how did this happen? It just pushes the same question a bit further back. I suspect that in most cases, there are smaller conquests of local areas by a local family who gradually expand their reach, then lend military support to the king in exchange for being left alone.

Also, without the constant income the rents provide, you would not stay wealthy for long even if you had cash to start with, which is why land is so important. Getting money via trade and industry means you have to both be good at what you do and accept a profit margin which may vary depending on market conditions. Renting out land requires no skill and is impervious to competition. Constant cash flow forever with no effort. In order to accumulate serious wealth in the age before industrialisation, there was no better way.

Re:Who Owns England? by Bakary on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:34PM (#14406687)
This interesting passage from Wikipedia:

In Marxist economics and preceding theories, the problem of primitive accumulation (also called previous accumulation, original accumulation) of capital concerns the origin of capital, and therefore of how class distinctions between possessors and non-possessors came to be.

Adam Smith's account of primitive-original accumulation depicted a peaceful process, in which some workers laboured more diligently than others and gradually built up wealth, eventually leaving the less diligent workers to accept living wages for their labour . Karl Marx rejected this explanation as "childishness," instead stating that, in the words of David Harvey, primitive accumulation "entailed taking land, say, enclosing it, and expelling a resident population to create a landless proletariat, and then releasing the land into the privatised mainstream of capital accumulation". This would be accomplished through violence, war, enslavement, and colonialism.

I don't endorse this theory but I thought it was relevant.

Re:Who Owns England? by plafl on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:30AM (#14407968)
I find Marx theory more plausible in this case. It is well known that land and wealth has been acquired by expulsion of people from different faith from your territory (I'm thinking for example expulsion of Jews and Moors from Spain) or taking it from natives of new territories (America, Africa). Also I don't think that skill got you very far in Europe 200 years ago as a general rule. Once you have power you spend it on the things more important to you, for example, your descendants. You don't leave things to chance like natural born abilities.
Re:Who Owns England? by hutzlibu on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:47AM (#14409583)
". You don't leave things to chance like natural born abilities."

Thats why you choose a proper partner.

Wealth still helps a lot, obviously, but thats why things went wrong and many people married for money and not for fitting genes.

Re:Who Owns England? by SnakePlissken on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @10:23AM (#14410199)
>>It is well known that land and wealth has been acquired by expulsion of people from different faith from your territory (I'm thinking for example expulsion of Jews and Moors from Spain)

The problem with this line of argument is the land always belonged to somebody else first. The Moors took it from the Visigoths, who took it from the Roman Empire, who took it from Carthage, who took it from Celt-Iberian tribes that had been taking it from each other since time immemorial.

>>or taking it from natives of new territories (America, Africa)

Who were engaged in near constant tribal warfare against each other for the possession of territory. The Conquistadors had such an easy time toppling the Aztecs because two of their abused vassal states rose up in rebellion and joined the Spaniards (providing the bulk of Cortes' forces at one point). Africa's tribal kingdoms and regional empires show the same bloody history of conquest as any other region in the world.

Although it's certainly unsettling, one of the ever-present themes across human history is the legitimacy and endurance of conquest. Any attempt to challenge that legitimacy requires a coherent framework for dismantling the hierarchy and replacing it with a "fair" one (a fool's errand). This is precisely the task at which Marxism and its various Critical Theory descendants fail so spectacularly.

It's all well and good to say the current distribution of things is unjust and demands to be addressed. It's another thing entirely to actually do so "fairly" (and more importantly, peacefully). It seems to me far more likely that whatever agency or panel is authorized the enormous power necessary to affect such a change will inevitably abuse that power and merely replace the current hierarchy with a new one of their choosing. And the odds are that if mere government dictate could not accomplish it, they would resort to the same "violence, war, enslavement" that Marx was denouncing (i.e., conquering the conquerors). Friedrich Hayek put it this way: "Even the striving for equality by means of a directed economy can result only in an officially enforced inequality - an authoritarian determination of the status of each individual in the new hierarchical order."

I'm reminded of the thought experiment in Rawls' Theory of Justice that he calls the "veil of ignorance"[0]. In short: before individuals enter a society they are totally blind to their own place in it (race, class, gender, wealth, etc), like a randomized spawn in a game. They are then asked to deliberate on the distribution of rights and resources before entering the society. Rawls concludes that everyone would agree on the most equitable distribution because they cannot know who they will be in this new society (e.g., a lopsided society where most people are incredibly poor or enslaved is a huge gamble to take).

What Rawls doesn't do is take things a step further and imagine what that utopian society would be like in practice. Once everyone "spawns" in and begins living (pursuing opportunities, acting out passions, planning for the future, etc) there are guaranteed to be unequal outcomes when some are more successful/economically valued/powerful/attractive/politically manipulative/etc than others. Soon enough the once-equals have established a new hierarchy, as human societies tend to do, and we're back to square one.

Marx was wrong to call Smith "childish", especially when his own ideals are so naively hopeful. Even in a hypothetical world where one could implement a completely "fair" redistribution of possessions, once people begin exercising their will and making choices, inequalities will inevitably emerge and Smith's view of original accumulation would play out.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

Re:Who Owns England? by plafl on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:54PM (#14412482)
I think you read more in my comment that was written, probably because it's usually the beginning of a rant in favor of communism.

I don't share Marx's view on the solution, but my point is that he correctly addressed the problem. All the examples you gave about previous violence in conquered territories just strengthen the point that meritocracy and wealth had nothing in common. Now, I actually believe strongly on personal merit and nowadays it can get you much further than before although I think we could do much better to give more similar chances to everyone at birth.

Re:Who Owns England? by Bakary on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:12PM (#14411593)
Very interesting post. This reminds of a passage in Asimov's memoirs where he informs Elie Wiesel that even Jews acted as oppressors during the single occurrence where they obtained significant political power. I recall reading that and suddenly being struck by a wave of melancholy.

Regarding Rawls, it seems as though the point is more to avoid a situation where there is a glut of people living truly miserable lives, such as the world we live in today. Inequalities are inevitable, but if almost everyone has a tolerable standard of living and there is no major dystopic framework in place it's no longer such a huge gamble to be born in this hypothetical world. It's definitely commendable to try to reduce the spectrum of inequality, or to redesign the system so that rent-seeking behavior no longer becomes problematic.

Re:Who Owns England? by StillBored on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:35PM (#14413653)
Adam Smith's account simply fails to note that war making is a form of work...
Re:Who Owns England? by ue_ on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:05AM (#14408826)
>If you think people are wealthy and elite because they have got land, how do you explain how they got the land?

By being given it by a state (which you have already said, in turn used force) or by forcefully taking it. It's primitive accumulation in the second instance and favouritism in the first. However both methods involve the creation of the concept of this type of property and further to take it, which requires as Proudhon put it, barbarism.

Re:Who Owns England? by gknoy on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:46PM (#14406067)
Swords.
Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:53PM (#14406121)
I think you're still making this argument in circles. Where do you get the men and weapons to take land by force if you aren't wealthy or part of the elite?
Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:12PM (#14406252)
I'll take transitional government techniques for 1000 karma thanks Paul. What is an armed revolt?
Re:Who Owns England? by pjc50 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:30AM (#14408402)
Great Britain is unusual in having had only one successful armed revolution in the past thousand years, and the resulting theocratic dictatorship was so bad it resulted in people demanding the monarchy back.

(The "glorious revolution" of 1688 contained no fighting, although it did involve foreign troops. There was a successful armed revolution in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, but this was more of a decolonisation than a class-based revolution.)

Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:49PM (#14406480)
Which major English land owner do you think got their land this way?

If you look at how major English land owners got started it all goes back to elites being granted land by the Crown for service.

Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:09PM (#14406566)
> Which major English land owner do you think got their land this way?

Is this a trick? The Crown got all their land by conquest: the Roundheads, Normans, the Danes, the Romans, &c.

Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:12PM (#14406580)
You said revolt and now you're saying conquest which aren't the same thing. Of course the Crown got it by conquest. But nobody got land by armed revolt did they? Can you name any major land owning families in England that didn't start off by patronage? I can't think of any.
Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:16AM (#14407940)
The Crown. You think the exchange of property has been politely arranged through the Land Registry since the first Brython clonked his annoying boss man on the head?
Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:56AM (#14408042)
Mate you can't describe the Norman invasion as an 'armed revolt'. That's just not what what the word 'revolt' means.

I'm talking about people except the Crown. 1066 and all that reset everything. Otherwise who's patronage would I be referring to?

Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:37AM (#14408434)
Turns out, it was a trick.
Re:Who Owns England? by nugget on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:57PM (#14405728)
> and, most importantly, can easily be handed down generations

Only if your ancestors win the battles and can stick around to defend it. Land was won and kept with blood, sweat, and tears (in that order).

Re:Who Owns England? by branchless on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:39PM (#14406713)
Nonsense. The state protects land for the wealthy using taxes from labourers.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COQgS0MUcAA7-RK.png

Re:Who Owns England? by stass on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:02PM (#14407311)
This is just a Marxist propaganda. How did wealthy become wealthy?
Re:Who Owns England? by andybak on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:47AM (#14408487)
The trivially true answer is "by a variety of means" but obviously it's trends and patterns that are of real interest.

And this brings us close to studies of "social mobility" (glossing over the difference between class and wealth - which - taking a long perspective - can be assumed to be roughly synonymous).

And with social mobility between generations usually fairly low in general - the next most trivially true answer is "because their ancestors were".

Attempts to trace this back to some origin myth is slightly silly but on the whole your answer to the "where did it all begin" question indicates your political colour.

If you tend to answer "Because they stole it by force" then you're probably on the left. And if you tend to answer "Because they created a strong leadership that protected a group from other groups" that places you on the right.

Of course - pure examples of bandits vs noble warrior kings are rare but I suspect there's more of the former in history than the latter. ;-)

Re:Who Owns England? by tormeh on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:23PM (#14411711)
In feudalism, land is the reward you get from the Crown by being useful to the Crown. Land lets you charge rent. Rent makes you rich.
Re:Who Owns England? by boomboomsubban on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:00PM (#14406528)
Yeah, one generation likely won a war for it, a few more probably had to pick the right sides during the various civil wars, but beyond that keeping land in your family doesn't take blood sweat and tears. It takes a little political bickering and lot of family infighting.
Re:Who Owns England? by DKnoll on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:07PM (#14406213)
I doubt tears did much to win and hold land... I think it would be more of a byproduct.
Re:Who Owns England? by simonh on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @03:41AM (#14408192)
Property is included in inheritance tax, which is 40% of the total estate value over £325k (or £425k if you're smart about it). So big land owners do get hammered trying to pass it on down generations.

You can try and mitigate that by gifting to your children, but the tax free limit for that is only £3k per year and is still taxed if it's given less than 7 years before you die. Not really enough to do extensive property owners much good.

Re:Who Owns England? by unculture on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:13AM (#14408332)
If this were the case, then we wouldn't still have aristocrats. Inheritance tax doesn't apply at this scale. They just put it in trust, even though no one seriously pretends that they don't control the money.

E.g., the Grosvenors, who own 3% of London. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/11/inheritance-ta...

Re:Who Owns England? by Steve44 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:57AM (#14408799)
By using trusts does help highlight another aspect. The 'owners' are more like custodians of the estate, a historical institution to be kept running. Yes they do control it and clearly benefit from it but if you have a look at their spending and lifestyles compared to the new rich they are very different.
Re:Who Owns England? by AmirS2 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:00AM (#14409326)
You can give any amount to your kids tax free ... if this is within 7 years of your death then Inheritance tax applies to amounts given over 3k per year (on a sliding scale). So works fine if you want to give away large amounts of assets long enough before you die.

If you want to give away property, then you have to make sure you don't continue living in the property rent-free for it to count for IHT.

As others have mentioned, serious estates just use trusts etc. instead.

http://www.money.co.uk/guides/gifting-money-to-your-children...

Re:Who Owns England? by crdoconnor on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:15AM (#14408338)
Re:Who Owns England? by stordoff on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:09AM (#14408598)
IIRC, until relatively recently, it was more or less trivial for large estates to avoid most inheritance tax - put the property in a trust, and pass on the interest in the profit generated rather than the property per se.

I think the recent changes have made it more difficult to completely avoid inheritance tax, but a proper trust setup will drastically reduce it.

Re:Who Owns England? by jamessb on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:35AM (#14408951)
> So big land owners do get hammered trying to pass it on down generations.

Many can get tax relief as a "national heritage asset" by opening to the public [1].

[1]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tax-relief-for-national-heritage...

Re:Who Owns England? by ascorbic on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:48AM (#14408494)
All properly rich people avoid this by using trusts. Inheritance tax is just for the normal well off.
Re:Who Owns England? by noja on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:29AM (#14408398)
No rich people pay inheritance tax on property, you are leaving in a fairytale if you believe that. They have estate planners, and estate planners use trusts.
Re:Who Owns England? by blackguardx on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:47PM (#14405660)
I'm shocked that there is no property tax in the UK. It seems like the only way to ensure land is maximally utilized.
Re:Who Owns England? by dogma1138 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:41PM (#14406029)
There are council taxes which are payed yearly (usually in monthly installments) depending on the value of the property these taxes average over a 1000 GBP a year for residential properties, (there are different schemes for businesses properties and agricultural land).

There is also a registration (stamp) tax any time you want to register a property in your name, these start on properties higher than 125K GBP however you would be very hard pressed to find anything beyond a parking space or a storage lot for that low in the UK.

On average when you purchase a property you will pay about 4% of it's value in tax.

So saying that there isn't a property tax in the UK is a bit of a stretch.

Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:57PM (#14406140)
A property tax is levied yearly on the value of the land; council tax was once a fair approximation to one but the various freezes have caused it to veer far away from the actual fair market value of the properties. And of course, it's paid by the occupier, not the owner.
Re:Who Owns England? by redblacktree on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:35PM (#14406972)
> it's paid by the occupier, not the owner.

This is true of property tax in the US as well. Not directly, perhaps, but renters are most definitely paying the property tax for their landlords.

Re:Who Owns England? by _delirium on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:56PM (#14407061)
Not true in most U.S. real-estate markets (especially in cities), where rental prices bear very little relationship to costs to the landlord. Prices are set more by a mixture of demand and supply, where supply is more constrained by zoning and planning policy than by maintenance costs. Raising or lowering property taxes in that kind of market will raise or lower profit margins for the landlord, but not raise or lower the prevailing rental prices, which are already set as high as demand allows.

One way to verify that not even landlords believe this "pass on the costs" theory is to see what they lobby for. U.K. landlords are adamant in lobbying against any attempt to convert the council-tax system into a property-tax system, and California landlords strongly lobby against any modification to Proposition 13. If it were equivalent either way with all costs just paid by the renters, landlords wouldn't care enough to lobby.

Re:Who Owns England? by logfromblammo on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @10:51AM (#14410404)
If rental income is not sufficient to cover property tax and other property maintenance costs, the property either gets sold instead of leased, or the owner is speculating on an increase in the value of the property and just rents to slow the bleeding until the market is willing to pay the target sale price. Self-storage businesses are often used for the latter purpose. If you see a self-storage out in the middle of nowhere, it usually means that someone is betting that area will see a development boom soon.

Property tax hits all landlords in an area in roughly equal measure, so it establishes a rental price floor without any of the illegal and impractical forms of collusion. Rental prices below that floor generally do not exist unless some kind of funny business is going on, because few people are willing to operate a business that continuously loses money without some kind of plan for getting it into positive cash flow.

Later on, if property taxes increase by a marginal amount, rental prices may increase by less than that marginal amount, but they will also eventually cause the cheapest rents to exit the market, as the tax increase causes them to cross the boundary of profitability, so further into the future will increase the surviving rents due to contraction in supply, and possibly increase in demand, depending on what the property taxes get spent on.

As such, if you are a land-owner in the US, and own property that rents at above-median rates, it would benefit you to lobby the local government to increase property tax rates, improve the public school system, and invest in public infrastructure. This tends to force out your cheaper competition, who might then sell out to you or convert to condominiums, and attract new tenants willing to pay higher rents. Tax increases come out of your tenants' pockets. But if you are at the cheapest end of the rent scale, you would likely prefer to lobby for zoning and occupancy restrictions, and to keep property taxes low. Your tenants have a hard limit on what they can afford to pay, and so the tax increases come straight out of your pockets. So there are valid reasons for landlords to lobby, both for and against.

Re:Who Owns England? by to3m on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:44PM (#14407006)
Council tax is paid directly by the tenant, who is liable for it personally, and whose name appears on the demand.
Re:Who Owns England? by dogma1138 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:31AM (#14408700)
Not exactly, most rent contracts require you to register with the council and pay the tax bill but there is nothing that prevents the property owner from paying the bills for you.

If you rent via an all inclusive scheme then you are not liable for it personally.

As long as someone is paying the tax and no discounts (single occupancy, benefits etc.) are applied on the tax the council doesn't really care who and how many people live on the property.

Re:Who Owns England? by strictnein on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @12:58PM (#14411493)
Renters can claim property tax refunds, at least in my state. I don't quite get why, to be honest, but the concept does exist.
Re:Who Owns England? by gutnor on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:39PM (#14406436)
Council Tax is more a general purpose local tax. It contains everything that in other countries would fall in various tax like municipal tax, local authority tax, recycling tax, driveway tax, ... and as such it is paid by the person living in the property, not the person owning the property (leaseholder or landlord).

Property tax would be taxing the landlord or at worst the leaseholder exclusively.

Re:Who Owns England? by james1071 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:55PM (#14406503)
Council tax is not a tax on property values.

The amount that a person has to pay depends on the budget of the local council and the banding of the property that the person lives in.

Re:Who Owns England? by stevekemp on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @12:54AM (#14407678)
Technically true, but a given property is placed in a specific band based upon the value of the property.

The only real reason why this isn't a direct link is that the banding is not reassessed regularly.

I do know some people who successfully persuaded their local council to move their property to a lower-priced band based upon the alleged fall in property value..

Re:Who Owns England? by kobeya on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:59PM (#14406154)
Wait, what is a property tax if it is not those things?
Re:Who Owns England? by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:15PM (#14406278)
In the US, the tax is attached to the property. In England, its attached to the occupant. The 15th Duke of Whatever with vacant land doesn't pay anything.

It has advantages and disadvantages. In my city, abandoned property often gets saddled with old tax liens and cannot be given away.

Re:Who Owns England? by Mao_Zedang on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:23PM (#14406329)
`It has advantages and disadvantages. In my city, abandoned property often gets saddled with old tax liens and cannot be given away. `

Surely this means the land has a negative value, and should get a positive tax, seems silly to have liens that are > than the value of the property.

Re:Who Owns England? by blackguardx on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @12:17AM (#14407581)
In Colorado, property with tax liens is seized and auctioned to the highest bidder after a certain period of time.

What state/country do you live in?

Re:Who Owns England? by ErrantX on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:34AM (#14407805)
If the vacant land has a property on it then he sure does; the owner is liable for a portion of the tax on unoccupied buildings.
Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:10PM (#14406240)
A yearly levy, based on a fair market valuation of the property (+ improvements), paid for by the landholder.

To put it another way, a property tax would be paid by the freeholder, not the leaseholder. This wouldn't make much of a difference for renters (as the owner would simply pass the cost on), but for owners of leasehold property it would be a stunning boon (and for freeholders who have sold the lease a disaster).

Re:Who Owns England? by kobeya on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:27PM (#14407398)
The fact that this county tax is paid by the leaseholder not the property owner is what was missing from the context. (And it boggles my mind why this is the case.)
Re:Who Owns England? by pjc50 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:37AM (#14408958)
England is run by landowners who are really hostile to the idea of property tax. The last big attempt at reforming the ancient "council rates" system in the 90s converted it to a per-person "Poll Tax". This was incredibly unpopular, widely boycotted, and resulted in riots. The system was dialled back to a system based on the value of the property in 1991, paid by the occupiers, with exemptions for students and empty properties, and a 25% discount for people living alone (mostly pensioners).
Re:Who Owns England? by DanBC on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:41AM (#14408972)
> with exemptions for [...] empty properties

https://www.gov.uk/council-tax/second-homes-and-empty-proper...

Empty properties are not always exempted. It's up to the council. Sometimes they are, sometimes there's a discount, sometimes there's no discount, sometimes people have to pay extra for empty properties.

Re:Who Owns England? by pjc50 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:22AM (#14408669)
Applying it to freeholders of very-long-lease property would be a fiasco for all those "99 year lease" properties that behave almost, but not quite, like freehold.
Re:Who Owns England? by caf on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:06PM (#14407105)
The owner's ability to pass the cost on depends on the conditions of supply and demand in the market, as always.
Re:Who Owns England? by DanBC on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:03PM (#14405772)
Do you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_Sta...

I guess one English equivalent is the "Council Tax".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax

And there are "business rates" for commercial properties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_rates_in_England

Re:Who Owns England? by waqf on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:56PM (#14405721)
Lack of property tax doesn't prevent a free market from operating, and ideal free markets cause optimal utilization (which admittedly is not the same as maximal utilization, but then, why would you want the latter?)

Now stamp duty, that is something which prevents land in the UK from being optimally utilized.

Re:Who Owns England? by soVeryTired on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:02PM (#14405755)
Ideal markets cause pareto-efficient utilisation, not optimal utilisation. But those markets have very little to do with markets in the real world.
Re:Who Owns England? by waqf on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:07PM (#14405797)
Right, but I still don't understand what underutilization problem is solved by property tax that isn't already solved by the fact that you could sell your underutilized land and receive money — unless your goal is to increase utilization beyond what's efficient.
Re:Who Owns England? by blackguardx on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:13PM (#14405832)
People aren't rational actors. This has been demonstrated in many econ experiments. Tax is a pain that is reoccurring. The government even reassess the value of your land periodically. Many people don't do this and may not know their land is underutilized. It is essentially a little nudge every year.

In this case, maximum utilization means maximum economic output, which is good for GDP and good for the country. It may not be the best for the local society, though. That part is hard to quantify and controversial.

Re:Who Owns England? by jdavis703 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:31PM (#14405974)
Why are there abandoned buildings, parking lots and urban farms in downtown and near downtown neighborhoods in most US cities? I lived in a converted former warehouse that sat empty for decades because the owner had a dream that a factory would eventually rent the space again. It took the owner's death and his son inheriting​ the property for it to be put to "efficient use" again.
Re:Who Owns England? by panglott on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:50AM (#14409600)
The Georgist argument is that the problem is property taxes aren't based solely on land value, and this creates excessive deadweight loss from taxation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

Under a system of pure land value taxes, an empty lot downtown would be taxed at the same rate as the highrise next to it, and taxed much higher than an empty lot in the outskirts—a huge incentive to put that empty lot to more productive use.

The proliferation of parking lots is a regulatory/zoning issue.

Re:Who Owns England? by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:19PM (#14406306)
Worthless property is worthless and the carrying cost is low.

If you have the capital, sitting on low value property can make you a lot of money.

Also, if you are a real estate investor, you can "launder" your profits to avoid taxes. That's why old shopping plazas will degrade until there is only a kung-fu place and a dollar store. It literally has a value sopping up real profits from thriving holdings with paper losses.

Re:Who Owns England? by digi_owl on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:16PM (#14406283)
Why do so many places in London owned by foreigners that never live there?

As old Marx put it, a commodity has two values. A use value, and a exchange value.

In the case of land, usage would mean building on it, farming it, or some such activity.

But even if nothing like that happens, the exchange value remains. Meaning that someone out there is willing to trade you for it.

Re:Who Owns England? by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:17PM (#14406285)
It isn't really.

In a discussion about problems with urban property in the US, an HN thread would decry property tax and wax on about land value tax.

Re:Who Owns England? by mattgibson on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:53PM (#14405695)
There is stamp duty land tax, but it's only charged on sales over a certain threshold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_duty_in_the_United_Kingd...
Re:Who Owns England? by gozur88 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:39PM (#14406019)
Don't you pay more council tax if you have land?
Re:Who Owns England? by branchless on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:42PM (#14406728)
You pay less on a second home than the person next door. The "logic" is you are using less "services" but then that's not land value tax. You are occupying the land, there is an opportunity cost, you should pay full whack.

The UK is a total nightmare for this and the education level is very low especially in economics so any mention of it is met with "it's me house".

Re:Who Owns England? by to3m on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:49PM (#14407031)
I paid more on my second home (for the 2 months I had one...) as the council only offered a single person discount on one's primary residence.
Re:Who Owns England? by branchless on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:13PM (#14407125)
Re:Who Owns England? by to3m on Thursday May 25, 2017 @07:58AM (#14416753)
The Second Homes section of https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/home/council-tax/council-tax-di... describes the applicable rules in this case.
Re:Who Owns England? by pjc50 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:27AM (#14408919)
This depends entirely on what you're using the land for. If you have a farm with a farmhouse on it, you pay council tax on the house but not on the farm (greatly oversimplified from http://manuals.voa.gov.uk/corporate/publications/Manuals/Cou... ).

There are all sorts of exemptions. A common source of complaints is that it's possible to have a huge area of Scotland as grouse moor but not pay business rates on it.

Re:Who Owns England? by branchless on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @11:30AM (#14410729)
And the establishment shoot grouse so they create a rule that lets them do what they want whilst the poor suffer.
Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:03PM (#14406189)
No, properties are allocated to 'bands' (A-H, +I in Wales), and the rates set as a percentage of the 'D' band.

Generally, properties are assigned bands according to density/cost of providing services to an area: an area with a difficult garbage pickup route may get a higher band, or a place with more schools.

More typically, bands are allocated based on the ability of the occupiers to pay, and the funds are combined (reallocated) at the local authority level so that deprived areas can be subsidised by wealthy areas.

Re:Who Owns England? by laurencerowe on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:12AM (#14407926)
Council tax bands are based on the property's value on 1 April 1991 (a couple of years before it was introduced.) Within a local authority, the cost of providing services to a property does not effect the band.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understand-how-council-tax-bands...

Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:18AM (#14407943)
Great correction to my post.
Re:Who Owns England? by ascorbic on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:08AM (#14408595)
Insofar as a house with lots of land attached will probably have a higher value, then yes. But not directly, and only for land that is within the curtilage of the residential property.