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Re:Who Owns England? by pm90 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:28PM (#14405539)
This is wayy too close to the truth. Historically, the wealthy and elite have dis-proportionally been landowners. And unlike money or precious metals, land actually holds value pretty well and, most importantly, can easily be handed down generations.
Re:Who Owns England? by mattgibson on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:56PM (#14405720)
> the wealthy and elite have dis-proportionally been landowners

I'd put that the other way around, saying the land owners have disproportionately ended up as the wealthy and powerful. The ownership of land and the huge unearned income derived from renting it to the masses looks more like cause than effect to me.

Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:12PM (#14405828)
If you think people are wealthy and elite because they have got land, how do you explain how they got the land?

I think either they bought it from the Crown, because they were wealthy, or they were granted it from the Crown, because they were part of the elite and did something for the Crown.

Since you think it was the other way around, how do you explain how they got the land?

Re:Who Owns England? by mattgibson on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:02PM (#14406178)
In the England at least, the system was roughly that the crown owned all the land through conquest (1066), then gave chunks of it to trusted nobles as a quid pro quo for fighting in the war that they just won. The nobles used the rent from these lands to maintain private armies which kept the peasants in check and the rent flowing, provided they raised an army on demand for the king as and when required.

There was no necessity to be wealthy first (although as you point out, this was often the case). Trouble is, if they were wealthy to start with, how did this happen? It just pushes the same question a bit further back. I suspect that in most cases, there are smaller conquests of local areas by a local family who gradually expand their reach, then lend military support to the king in exchange for being left alone.

Also, without the constant income the rents provide, you would not stay wealthy for long even if you had cash to start with, which is why land is so important. Getting money via trade and industry means you have to both be good at what you do and accept a profit margin which may vary depending on market conditions. Renting out land requires no skill and is impervious to competition. Constant cash flow forever with no effort. In order to accumulate serious wealth in the age before industrialisation, there was no better way.

Re:Who Owns England? by Bakary on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:34PM (#14406687)
This interesting passage from Wikipedia:

In Marxist economics and preceding theories, the problem of primitive accumulation (also called previous accumulation, original accumulation) of capital concerns the origin of capital, and therefore of how class distinctions between possessors and non-possessors came to be.

Adam Smith's account of primitive-original accumulation depicted a peaceful process, in which some workers laboured more diligently than others and gradually built up wealth, eventually leaving the less diligent workers to accept living wages for their labour . Karl Marx rejected this explanation as "childishness," instead stating that, in the words of David Harvey, primitive accumulation "entailed taking land, say, enclosing it, and expelling a resident population to create a landless proletariat, and then releasing the land into the privatised mainstream of capital accumulation". This would be accomplished through violence, war, enslavement, and colonialism.

I don't endorse this theory but I thought it was relevant.

Re:Who Owns England? by plafl on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:30AM (#14407968)
I find Marx theory more plausible in this case. It is well known that land and wealth has been acquired by expulsion of people from different faith from your territory (I'm thinking for example expulsion of Jews and Moors from Spain) or taking it from natives of new territories (America, Africa). Also I don't think that skill got you very far in Europe 200 years ago as a general rule. Once you have power you spend it on the things more important to you, for example, your descendants. You don't leave things to chance like natural born abilities.
Re:Who Owns England? by hutzlibu on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:47AM (#14409583)
". You don't leave things to chance like natural born abilities."

Thats why you choose a proper partner.

Wealth still helps a lot, obviously, but thats why things went wrong and many people married for money and not for fitting genes.

Re:Who Owns England? by SnakePlissken on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @10:23AM (#14410199)
>>It is well known that land and wealth has been acquired by expulsion of people from different faith from your territory (I'm thinking for example expulsion of Jews and Moors from Spain)

The problem with this line of argument is the land always belonged to somebody else first. The Moors took it from the Visigoths, who took it from the Roman Empire, who took it from Carthage, who took it from Celt-Iberian tribes that had been taking it from each other since time immemorial.

>>or taking it from natives of new territories (America, Africa)

Who were engaged in near constant tribal warfare against each other for the possession of territory. The Conquistadors had such an easy time toppling the Aztecs because two of their abused vassal states rose up in rebellion and joined the Spaniards (providing the bulk of Cortes' forces at one point). Africa's tribal kingdoms and regional empires show the same bloody history of conquest as any other region in the world.

Although it's certainly unsettling, one of the ever-present themes across human history is the legitimacy and endurance of conquest. Any attempt to challenge that legitimacy requires a coherent framework for dismantling the hierarchy and replacing it with a "fair" one (a fool's errand). This is precisely the task at which Marxism and its various Critical Theory descendants fail so spectacularly.

It's all well and good to say the current distribution of things is unjust and demands to be addressed. It's another thing entirely to actually do so "fairly" (and more importantly, peacefully). It seems to me far more likely that whatever agency or panel is authorized the enormous power necessary to affect such a change will inevitably abuse that power and merely replace the current hierarchy with a new one of their choosing. And the odds are that if mere government dictate could not accomplish it, they would resort to the same "violence, war, enslavement" that Marx was denouncing (i.e., conquering the conquerors). Friedrich Hayek put it this way: "Even the striving for equality by means of a directed economy can result only in an officially enforced inequality - an authoritarian determination of the status of each individual in the new hierarchical order."

I'm reminded of the thought experiment in Rawls' Theory of Justice that he calls the "veil of ignorance"[0]. In short: before individuals enter a society they are totally blind to their own place in it (race, class, gender, wealth, etc), like a randomized spawn in a game. They are then asked to deliberate on the distribution of rights and resources before entering the society. Rawls concludes that everyone would agree on the most equitable distribution because they cannot know who they will be in this new society (e.g., a lopsided society where most people are incredibly poor or enslaved is a huge gamble to take).

What Rawls doesn't do is take things a step further and imagine what that utopian society would be like in practice. Once everyone "spawns" in and begins living (pursuing opportunities, acting out passions, planning for the future, etc) there are guaranteed to be unequal outcomes when some are more successful/economically valued/powerful/attractive/politically manipulative/etc than others. Soon enough the once-equals have established a new hierarchy, as human societies tend to do, and we're back to square one.

Marx was wrong to call Smith "childish", especially when his own ideals are so naively hopeful. Even in a hypothetical world where one could implement a completely "fair" redistribution of possessions, once people begin exercising their will and making choices, inequalities will inevitably emerge and Smith's view of original accumulation would play out.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

Re:Who Owns England? by plafl on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:54PM (#14412482)
I think you read more in my comment that was written, probably because it's usually the beginning of a rant in favor of communism.

I don't share Marx's view on the solution, but my point is that he correctly addressed the problem. All the examples you gave about previous violence in conquered territories just strengthen the point that meritocracy and wealth had nothing in common. Now, I actually believe strongly on personal merit and nowadays it can get you much further than before although I think we could do much better to give more similar chances to everyone at birth.

Re:Who Owns England? by Bakary on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:12PM (#14411593)
Very interesting post. This reminds of a passage in Asimov's memoirs where he informs Elie Wiesel that even Jews acted as oppressors during the single occurrence where they obtained significant political power. I recall reading that and suddenly being struck by a wave of melancholy.

Regarding Rawls, it seems as though the point is more to avoid a situation where there is a glut of people living truly miserable lives, such as the world we live in today. Inequalities are inevitable, but if almost everyone has a tolerable standard of living and there is no major dystopic framework in place it's no longer such a huge gamble to be born in this hypothetical world. It's definitely commendable to try to reduce the spectrum of inequality, or to redesign the system so that rent-seeking behavior no longer becomes problematic.

Re:Who Owns England? by StillBored on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:35PM (#14413653)
Adam Smith's account simply fails to note that war making is a form of work...
Re:Who Owns England? by ue_ on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:05AM (#14408826)
>If you think people are wealthy and elite because they have got land, how do you explain how they got the land?

By being given it by a state (which you have already said, in turn used force) or by forcefully taking it. It's primitive accumulation in the second instance and favouritism in the first. However both methods involve the creation of the concept of this type of property and further to take it, which requires as Proudhon put it, barbarism.

Re:Who Owns England? by gknoy on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:46PM (#14406067)
Swords.
Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:53PM (#14406121)
I think you're still making this argument in circles. Where do you get the men and weapons to take land by force if you aren't wealthy or part of the elite?
Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:12PM (#14406252)
I'll take transitional government techniques for 1000 karma thanks Paul. What is an armed revolt?
Re:Who Owns England? by pjc50 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:30AM (#14408402)
Great Britain is unusual in having had only one successful armed revolution in the past thousand years, and the resulting theocratic dictatorship was so bad it resulted in people demanding the monarchy back.

(The "glorious revolution" of 1688 contained no fighting, although it did involve foreign troops. There was a successful armed revolution in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, but this was more of a decolonisation than a class-based revolution.)

Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:49PM (#14406480)
Which major English land owner do you think got their land this way?

If you look at how major English land owners got started it all goes back to elites being granted land by the Crown for service.

Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:09PM (#14406566)
> Which major English land owner do you think got their land this way?

Is this a trick? The Crown got all their land by conquest: the Roundheads, Normans, the Danes, the Romans, &c.

Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:12PM (#14406580)
You said revolt and now you're saying conquest which aren't the same thing. Of course the Crown got it by conquest. But nobody got land by armed revolt did they? Can you name any major land owning families in England that didn't start off by patronage? I can't think of any.
Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:16AM (#14407940)
The Crown. You think the exchange of property has been politely arranged through the Land Registry since the first Brython clonked his annoying boss man on the head?
Re:Who Owns England? by chrisseaton on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:56AM (#14408042)
Mate you can't describe the Norman invasion as an 'armed revolt'. That's just not what what the word 'revolt' means.

I'm talking about people except the Crown. 1066 and all that reset everything. Otherwise who's patronage would I be referring to?

Re:Who Owns England? by falsedan on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:37AM (#14408434)
Turns out, it was a trick.
Re:Who Owns England? by nugget on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:57PM (#14405728)
> and, most importantly, can easily be handed down generations

Only if your ancestors win the battles and can stick around to defend it. Land was won and kept with blood, sweat, and tears (in that order).

Re:Who Owns England? by branchless on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:39PM (#14406713)
Nonsense. The state protects land for the wealthy using taxes from labourers.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COQgS0MUcAA7-RK.png

Re:Who Owns England? by stass on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:02PM (#14407311)
This is just a Marxist propaganda. How did wealthy become wealthy?
Re:Who Owns England? by andybak on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:47AM (#14408487)
The trivially true answer is "by a variety of means" but obviously it's trends and patterns that are of real interest.

And this brings us close to studies of "social mobility" (glossing over the difference between class and wealth - which - taking a long perspective - can be assumed to be roughly synonymous).

And with social mobility between generations usually fairly low in general - the next most trivially true answer is "because their ancestors were".

Attempts to trace this back to some origin myth is slightly silly but on the whole your answer to the "where did it all begin" question indicates your political colour.

If you tend to answer "Because they stole it by force" then you're probably on the left. And if you tend to answer "Because they created a strong leadership that protected a group from other groups" that places you on the right.

Of course - pure examples of bandits vs noble warrior kings are rare but I suspect there's more of the former in history than the latter. ;-)

Re:Who Owns England? by tormeh on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:23PM (#14411711)
In feudalism, land is the reward you get from the Crown by being useful to the Crown. Land lets you charge rent. Rent makes you rich.
Re:Who Owns England? by boomboomsubban on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:00PM (#14406528)
Yeah, one generation likely won a war for it, a few more probably had to pick the right sides during the various civil wars, but beyond that keeping land in your family doesn't take blood sweat and tears. It takes a little political bickering and lot of family infighting.
Re:Who Owns England? by DKnoll on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:07PM (#14406213)
I doubt tears did much to win and hold land... I think it would be more of a byproduct.
Re:Who Owns England? by simonh on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @03:41AM (#14408192)
Property is included in inheritance tax, which is 40% of the total estate value over £325k (or £425k if you're smart about it). So big land owners do get hammered trying to pass it on down generations.

You can try and mitigate that by gifting to your children, but the tax free limit for that is only £3k per year and is still taxed if it's given less than 7 years before you die. Not really enough to do extensive property owners much good.

Re:Who Owns England? by unculture on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:13AM (#14408332)
If this were the case, then we wouldn't still have aristocrats. Inheritance tax doesn't apply at this scale. They just put it in trust, even though no one seriously pretends that they don't control the money.

E.g., the Grosvenors, who own 3% of London. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/11/inheritance-ta...

Re:Who Owns England? by Steve44 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:57AM (#14408799)
By using trusts does help highlight another aspect. The 'owners' are more like custodians of the estate, a historical institution to be kept running. Yes they do control it and clearly benefit from it but if you have a look at their spending and lifestyles compared to the new rich they are very different.
Re:Who Owns England? by AmirS2 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:00AM (#14409326)
You can give any amount to your kids tax free ... if this is within 7 years of your death then Inheritance tax applies to amounts given over 3k per year (on a sliding scale). So works fine if you want to give away large amounts of assets long enough before you die.

If you want to give away property, then you have to make sure you don't continue living in the property rent-free for it to count for IHT.

As others have mentioned, serious estates just use trusts etc. instead.

http://www.money.co.uk/guides/gifting-money-to-your-children...

Re:Who Owns England? by crdoconnor on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:15AM (#14408338)
Re:Who Owns England? by stordoff on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:09AM (#14408598)
IIRC, until relatively recently, it was more or less trivial for large estates to avoid most inheritance tax - put the property in a trust, and pass on the interest in the profit generated rather than the property per se.

I think the recent changes have made it more difficult to completely avoid inheritance tax, but a proper trust setup will drastically reduce it.

Re:Who Owns England? by jamessb on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:35AM (#14408951)
> So big land owners do get hammered trying to pass it on down generations.

Many can get tax relief as a "national heritage asset" by opening to the public [1].

[1]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tax-relief-for-national-heritage...

Re:Who Owns England? by ascorbic on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:48AM (#14408494)
All properly rich people avoid this by using trusts. Inheritance tax is just for the normal well off.
Re:Who Owns England? by noja on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @04:29AM (#14408398)
No rich people pay inheritance tax on property, you are leaving in a fairytale if you believe that. They have estate planners, and estate planners use trusts.