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Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by graphitezepp on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:53PM (#14403441)
The notion of not knowing why recording sound could be useful to me is hard to grasp as someone who has always been around it. It is extremely difficult to understand societies of the past.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by digi_owl on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:29PM (#14404416)
Well keep in mind that most places had some kind of live musical venue.

I seem to recall that when the early recording studios were opened, musicians were not interested. This because they considered themselves entertainers, not assembly line workers.

And frankly i find that the best musicians are those that focus on the stage first and foremost even today. Those that gets remembered most fondly are those that can get up on stage and actually adapt to and interact with the audience rather than just go through a routine and bow out.

Never mind that early on the equipment was sensitive and fiddly. The Edison design involved either paper or solid cylinders wrapped around a rotating shaft. And the output was a mechanically driven membrane attached to a bullhorn.

The vacuum tube, and thus the amplifier, didn't show up for another 30 years.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by cr0sh on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:08PM (#14405361)
Technically, Edison invented the vacuum tube - he just didn't completely understand it or its usefulness entirely.

That's why what was later termed "thermionic emission":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermionic_emission

...is also known as the "Edison Effect" (though the effect was discovered by others much earlier, and re-discovered over time - Edison being just one in the chain).

His whole purpose was in trying to find out why his light bulbs filaments broke and burned out, and why there was darkening near the positive terminal of the bulb.

I won't go further with this, but I do often wonder if Tesla, while he worked with Edison, had any contact with this part of Edison's operations? In everything I've read on both inventors, it would seem like the answer is "no"; Tesla started working for Edison in June of 1884, and Edison took out a patent on the effect in 1883, and exhibited it in 1884.

The timeline is close, but for some reason Tesla either didn't have contact with the device, or dismissed it - as far as I can tell, though, it was likely the former, because I've never read anything from him where he discussed it.

Which is a pity. Had they not had the "breakup" of the century (which resulted in an insane rivalry ala "War of the Currents") - I am certain that Tesla would have both seen and understood the usefulness of the work, and would have been able to scientifically describe its workings most likely. Electronic technology would have been advanced by almost 30 years or so (whether or not that would have been a good thing we cannot know).

EDIT: years

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by nebabyte on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:29PM (#14406952)
ala -> aka "The War ...

Not sure of the specifics but by context I'm assuming that was the intent.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by pavlov on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @12:10AM (#14407562)
I think French "à la" was the intent.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by wutbrodo on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @12:56AM (#14407693)
Yes, and I think the intent of the correction was that "a la" is incorrect and AKA is correct in context. The rivalry described wasn't "along the lines of" The War of Currents, it _was_ (also known as) The War of Currents.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by VLM on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:01PM (#14405308)
Critically there was a pecking order and enormous social signalling and numerous middlemen working it.

A random piano player didn't appear in a random bar, there were agents working things such that your 60th percentile musician tended to appear in the 60th percentile bar (or at least 60th percentile of PAYMENT regardless of bar quality LOL).

Everyone involved in the system was very interested in their relative position in the pecking order vs money greasing the wheels.

Proposing that you scrap that and play a recording is very strange. First of all it was a long time until a random bartender could operate the playback machine as a secondary task. So you need a musical specialist and its not immediately apparent that a record mechanic or record engineer is going to be cheaper than some random vocalist. Meanwhile you lost your spot in the pecking order and people who want to hear music while drinking and dancing are going to be confused. Instead of paying a small amount of untaxed undocumented revenue to the band your agent found, you now have to raise capital and you have to purchase and install hardware and you have to maintain it when it breaks and you have to operate it. Note the latter has a lot of both "you" doing labor and "you" financing whereas the old system your agent took care of making a guitar player show up with the guitar the player purchased and tuned and maintained. Its not that great of a deal for the venue owner.

As an analogy, locally there is a college marching band that is competitive with other marching bands and they put on quite a show. Technically I could replace their instruments with MIDI connected drum machines and they'd sound better. I could replace the whole marching band with a 90s audio CD boom box and a single veteran soldier who can march. In practice they see themselves as a competitive marching band team, not as a commodity source of drum music. The ideal commodity source of drum music is a CD boombox, but football games have marching bands perform which is a totally different situation.

I wonder if in the history of marching band competition anyone has ever entered a dude carrying a boombox playing the output of a computer MIDI interfaced drum machine. I think a good audio engineer could produce a recording that technically sounds superior to any human powered marching band, but it misses the point of the greater marketplace its a part of.

You could model it as the ancient guild system and there's already an entrenched guild operating very successfully in the space.

(edited to also add, at the time, there were mechanical sources of music and they were the absolute bottom of the pecking order, only a total dive bar would have an "organ grinder" or literally a jewelry music box, so here's a nicer mechanical source of music, but mechanical music is bottom tier, and here you are trying to get the nicest dive bar in town to make a massive capital and labor investment, not gonna happen... A good analogy today would be, um, inflatable women are not seen as a high status symbol, household good, but supposedly AI will make something like the cult classic "Cherry 2000" movie a reality for better or worse someday, although the guy selling "Cherry 3.11" or "Cherry 95" or "Cherry 98" is going to have a rough time selling until Cherry 2000 hits the market, and no I'm not making this up there really is a legit cult classic movie "Cherry 2000")

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by caseysoftware on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:23PM (#14411718)
I wonder if musicians of the time complained about the "automation" of their jobs?
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by gosheroo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:11PM (#14403661)
Yes. Past attitudes were absurdly parochial.

Half of Bach's manuscripts were lost. Writing was invented for tax purposes. Even natural selection sat on the genetic code for a billion years before branching out into multicellular life.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by jacobolus on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:00PM (#14405304)
Actually, some of the earliest writings we have (in Mesopotamia) are for managing beer production supply chains.

Other early mathematical/written work was for taxes and debt records, but also recording business transactions, adjudicating land boundary disputes, managing subcontracted work quotas, and so on. Then later of course we get written legal codes, astronomical records, religious texts, satirical stories complaining about scribes’ incompetent and hypocritical bosses, personal letters, ...

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by ceejayoz on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:53PM (#14407051)
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by pjmlp on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @02:31AM (#14407972)
Great read, it might be around 4000 years old and yet feels so actual.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by crottypeter on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:41PM (#14405624)
> taxes and debt records

Probably along the lines of "X owes me a beer!"

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by nebabyte on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:31PM (#14406955)
Early hieroglyphics: "tipcoin! 1 beer"
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by Nition on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:45AM (#14407833)
Back when the blockchain was a chain of blocks.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by greaterscope on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:44PM (#14403975)
You made me lol. Thank you :-)
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by gosheroo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:51PM (#14404633)
Fine! Most of the credit goes to Chapter 6 of David Deutsch's The Beginning of Infinity.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by coldtea on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:53PM (#14404081)
>Half of Bach's manuscripts were lost.

So? How does that make "past attitudes" any more "absurdly parochial" than ours, since the vast majority could care less for Bach and classical music today?

>Writing was invented for tax purposes.

Well, taxes were invented to help build cities and defend them, so there's that.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by jtraffic on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:22PM (#14404338)
I don't believe missing the value of new technology can be relegated to "societies of the past."

Personal computers and the internet both had really slow starts, for two really big examples.

I'm sure there are technologies sitting around right now with vast potential that our society doesn't value.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by digi_owl on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:32PM (#14404444)
Yeah the net didn't really boom until we could use the web to shop, effectively turning it into a more accessible mail order catalog.

These days it seems to have turned into something akin to TV shop, with the addition of an interactive link on top of the video stream.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by Banthum on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:20PM (#14404948)
Eh, I think the net boomed without needing online shopping. Lots of people were and are using the Net 99%-100% of the time for non-shopping purposes. The net boom drivers were:

-Email

-Funny cat pics/videos, etc. eBaumsWorld etc

-News/blogs/forums

-Online gaming

-Porn

-YouTube (see above)

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by digi_owl on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:59PM (#14406155)
Outside of email what you list largely came after the dot-coms bubble crashed.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by eru on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:42PM (#14414021)
Porn was alive and well before. Forums as well. Blogs came later, if I remember right. Online gaming existed, but was much smaller (of course).
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by dragonwriter on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @06:48PM (#14414045)
Blogs were around long before, and the term "blog" to refer to them was even coined around the beginning of the .com bubble (1997) , not after the crash (2000-2002).
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by eru on Thursday May 25, 2017 @04:02PM (#14419745)
Thanks!
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by 2845197541 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:22PM (#14404967)
Some things seem so obvious. How can those old people not immediately realize the implications of recorded and proliferated sound? How could Charlie Chaplin possibly think that talkies were a passing fad? How can people today think that our media isn't heading towards the virtual, our computation towards brain interfacing?
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by jclardy on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:06PM (#14405791)
I think it is just the environment. We grew up with computers. Technology is advancing at a crazy rate compared to what it was 100 years ago. The idea of things constantly changing just didn't exist...because things generally didn't change.

In my lifetime people went from a single family landline phone to every family member carrying an internet connected smartphone over just 20 years. There just wasn't that rapid pace of change in any time period before now.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by digi_owl on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:06PM (#14406212)
Different kinds of technology accelerate at different rate.

Most of the time it follows some kind of S curve, and i dear say that the IC, and thus the computer, is hitting the flattening top of the S these days.

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by kalleboo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:52PM (#14407493)
Lots of people today think electric cars are a fad, renewables are unworkable, climate change doesn't exist, automation/self-driving cars won't replace manual labor, etc etc. Some of those will seem obvious with hindsight.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by tdeck on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:37PM (#14406707)
It wasn't useful because you couldn't play it back. The title of this article is awful; it encourages all these comments fixating on the "no one cared" aspect while if you read the article, it's quite obvious why no one cared. When we think of "recorded sound", being able to listen to those sounds is implicit in our minds. This invention is only recording sound in the technical sense, not the colloquial sense.
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by JadeNB on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:11PM (#14406868)
> The notion of not knowing why recording sound could be useful to me is hard to grasp as someone who has always been around it.

This seems like (from their point of view) the Blub paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(computer_programm... ), and (from our point of view) something of its converse. From their point of view, they couldn't see the importance of sound recording because they didn't have any existing mechanisms to make use of it. From our point of view, we can't not see the importance of sound recording, because we have so many ways of making use of it.

(Kind of like how, once you know the effect being demonstrated in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo , you not only no longer experience it, but find it hard to believe that you ever did.)

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by charlesism on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:31PM (#14406670)

    > The notion of not knowing why recording sound could 
    > be useful to me is hard to grasp
Because that clearly isn't the whole story.

Culture hasn't change as much as you seem to think in the past 150 years. Heck, some institutions, like the Catholic Church, have been trucking along since the Roman Era!

Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by transposed on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:58PM (#14407072)
Since I studied how humans sometimes have poor judgments for a briefly, I had the opposite reaction: I immediately imagined some young person from the 1800's saying "Well gee why would you want to record sounds when you go can go hear them live!"
Re:At The Dawn Of Recorded Sound, No One Cared by gotthemwmds on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @03:36AM (#14408169)
Check out something the historians call "presentism". It's really enlightening in regards to helping think about why past breakthroughs were not fully realized.