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Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by bjt on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:03PM (#14248871)
This feels like the proverbial dollar left on the street that economists say should not exist, so I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what's stopping chains from replicating this. I wonder whether this alternate network is as scrupulous about source tracking and food safety regulations. Those costs could be driving up prices on the traditional retail side.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by naravara on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:19PM (#14249049)
>I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what's stopping chains from replicating this.

Scale.

Anything living has a level of variability and likelihood of failure/damage/spoilage to it that gets harder and harder to manage as your scale gets bigger.

When you're a small shopkeeper who sells about 3 baskets of apples a day, it's both easier to sift through it and throw out the bad ones AND easier to find 3 basket's worth of apples that meet your quality expectations.

When you have to move 3 pallet-loads of apples, though, not only does QC become a more complicated endeavor, but you have to find 3 pallet-loads of apples to sell at a competitive price, so you may not have the luxury of being so choosy. When pallet-loads scale up to shipping-containers. . . you can see where I'm going with this.

And then there are logistics issues. If you're a large retailer you have to bring everything into centralized warehouses and then send them out. This means things need to travel longer distances and/or have longer shelf-lives. The upshot of that is they have a higher chance of either being past their prime by the time they get to you, or that had to get picked before they were properly ripened on the vine.

When you're smaller, have smaller scale suppliers, and less complicated distribution networks a lot of that extra burden falls away. Starbucks had this problem when they first started to get big too. A lot of people give them flack for over-roasting their beans and giving everything a charred/muddied flavor. When they were small they were able to be choosier about the beans. As they grew the scuttlebutt is that there just weren’t enough beans of that quality level on the market, so they had to lower the quality threshold and move to darker roasts. They still sell better beans, but only in select locations.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by ThrustVectoring on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:45PM (#14249310)
There's also the matter of what trade-offs customers are willing to accept. I suspect that the customers here care a lot more about price, whereas the typical suburban supermarket customers are willing to pay premiums for things like later operating hours, selection of goods, higher likelihood of availability, and the "organic" label on produce.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by athenot on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:23PM (#14249701)
And taste. And freshness. I find a much better selection of flavors at my local Asian mart, and produce is usually a lot fresher since it moves off the shelves fast. Contrast with my local supermarket which sees that same bunch of brussel sprouts stay out all week, until it shrivels up and end up tossing half in the trash.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by mncharity on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:54PM (#14249420)
I wonder whether this might change with increasingly powerful computer-human hybrid systems.

So instead of "I want to grow, and my current 100 suppliers are an unmanageable drag on that." being followed by "I need that consolidated towards 10, so my purchasing agents can talk with them all more often, and thus better manage my supply chain.", it might instead be followed by "I need that replicated towards 1000, so my purchasing software has the sample sizes and redundancy to do the machine learning and statistics to better manage my supply network."

> When you're smaller, have smaller scale suppliers, and less complicated distribution network

A more complicated to manage network in some ways. Lots of fine grain tactical purchasing with multiple competing suppliers, that you couldn't staff at supermarket scale.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by naravara on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @04:50PM (#14250451)
>A more complicated to manage network in some ways. Lots of fine grain tactical purchasing with multiple competing suppliers, that you couldn't staff at supermarket scale.

Well yes and no. Objectively it is more complicated, but it's a sort of complexity that humans can handle intuitively since it's mostly about personal connections and relationships. It's not as abstracted as more expansive supply-chain logistics are.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by robrenaud on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:50PM (#14249370)
I am skeptical that dis-economies of scale are the reason chinatown is cheap.

Why are Amazon and Walmart so successful and cheap?

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by stickfigure on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @04:25PM (#14250246)
I generally agree with your skepticism, although the original source is the WSJ and I generally credit them with an elevated level of economic literacy.

Rationalizing your question: Amazon and Walmart predominantly sell shrink-wrap manufactured items with nearly unlimited shelf life and minimal variability. The supply chain is very different and much more forgiving.

Walmart does sell groceries, but it's unclear if they're especially successful at it, or if their prices are especially good. I don't feel there's enough information here to encourage or discourage your skepticism.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by paulddraper on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:08PM (#14248921)
> Markets also cut costs by eschewing extra technology and certain aesthetic choices—the Journal points out that shelves “are typically made of plywood and lined with newsprint,” prices are scrawled on cardboard instead of printed on stickers, and credit cards are not always accepted.

Some people don't want to buy food with cardboard signs and cash.

Hell, I've heard California even has people who are fans of convenience so much they will pay for other people to do the grocery shopping.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by thoughtpalette on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @06:19PM (#14251153)
I pay a service to do my grocery shopping for me. It's a bit of a markup, but I highly value my personal time, don't own a vehicle and have an extreme dislike of grocery stores. There's a great market for such services (gig economy).

Chicago Resident.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by paulddraper on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @07:05PM (#14251504)
Exactly. I was being facetious, but the point is that rock-bottom prices aren't everything.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by benwilber0 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @06:34PM (#14251270)
yep same. Brooklyn here. I order grocery delivery from a local independent grocer via an app once a week or so. I value my time and don't want to spend it standing it line at a grocery store.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by s0rce on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:37PM (#14249230)
I met people in London who also pay people to grocery shop for them. For most staples I'm pretty sure this could probably be cheaper then having a grocery store in SF, they could have a warehouse in Fremont.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by kbutler on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:44PM (#14249293)
We could call it "HomeGrocer" or maybe that's too specific - how about "Webvan"?

(I agree though, I think this is something that is going to happen - just have to find the right business model at the right time.)

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by rsynnott on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @09:00AM (#14255245)
In the UK and Ireland the big supermarket chains do deliveries for cheap (7.50 euro per month from Tesco, for instance, or a few euro per shot if you pay as you go). The catch is that it is generally believed that, at least outside certain high-density urban areas, they're doing this at a loss; it may not be sustainable.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Symbiote on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @02:26PM (#14258636)
Tesco have been doing online ordering since 1997, so it seems unlikely is unsustainable.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by dylz on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:50PM (#14249365)
Doesn't that exist in the form of primenow, doordash, seamless, grubhub, instacart, uber eats, [...]?

From what I remember I've seen quite a few "night time delivery only, no pickup allowed" grocery "restaurants" on those services

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by pault on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:01PM (#14249489)
Eh? I don't have a car and do _all_ of my shopping via amazon now and instacart (direct from Whole Foods). I get deliveries 3-4 times per week.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by joshyeager on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @05:23PM (#14250752)
Kbutler is joking. HomeGrocer and WebVan were early companies that attempted to sell groceries on the Internet. They both collapsed in the dot-com crash.

I am not sure why they failed but more recent attempts seem to be succeeding. My two current theories are: 1. They were ahead of their time. There weren't enough people shopping on the Internet to sustain them back then. 2. They were killed by structural obstacles that may also kill the new versions.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by InitialLastName on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:54PM (#14249960)
Something about how you can get Fresh food Directly from the warehouse.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by mistermann on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:50PM (#14249372)
> Some people don't want to buy food with cardboard signs and cash.

Gee, I wonder why do you have to pay with cash....that might be one contributing factor why prices can't be matched by mainstream retailers.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by sotojuan on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:32PM (#14249784)
Immigrants in general, but especially Asian ones, do not want to pay the fees required to accept cards.

Most people in their communities are fine with it.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by mistermann on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @04:07PM (#14250092)
In my experience they often seem averse to typing sales into a cash register, even when they have one right in from of them....or the ole "type the price in and hit "cash" " trick.

Must be some sort of a superstition.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by jfoutz on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @10:07PM (#14252469)
My grandfather ran a store that my uncle took over. No pennies, no tax. Everything was priced as marked. End of the day, count up the register and write it in the log. end of the month calculate how much came in, multiply by sales tax, and send a check off to the state.

Maybe they're cheating. IMHO, most of that cash register discipline is because the owner (or his immediate family) isn't running the register.

Im sure you can get away with not paying taxes for a while, but if you're going to have a generational store, you've got to be honest.

Technical controls are cool and all. When you can just look over and see you need more cans of soup, when you implicitly trust your employees, and you're not looking to make a quick buck and run away, they're just a lot of work for not much value. Scaling has a cost.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by GFischer on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @03:27PM (#14259181)
In South America, tax evasion has evolved so much that there are software packages with built-in "under the table" accounting, and dual accounting (one for the state and the real one).

Paying actual taxes is a fast way to bankruptcy here :( , the above-board companies look for tax loops, smaller ones make do with dual-accounting and understating income.

Government figured out that income tax is the most difficult to fake and heavily hammers employees :(

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Symbiote on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @02:29PM (#14258670)
Immigrants in Europe accept cards in their shops, but then the EU limits the maximum charge to 5 cents for a debit card.

Cash also has a cost, which can often be greater than 5 cents.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by benwilber0 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @06:46PM (#14251356)
I don't get the aversion to cash. I prefer that my bank and credit card company not know literally everything I buy, no matter how mundane or innocuous.

It's nice to buy a pack of cigarettes with cash and not worry that my health insurance company is going to somehow find out.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by throwaway2048 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:26PM (#14249120)
Its a conditioning thing, if thats how you had always bought vegetables it wouldn't be odd to you at all.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by ethbro on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:35PM (#14249802)
I may be showing my roots here, but I've never bought a cantaloupe off the back of a beat up farm truck that wasn't delicious.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Nav_Panel on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:08PM (#14248925)
> what's stopping chains from replicating this

Probably volume. Chinatown is extremely dense and has such high foot traffic that it makes sense to operate without refrigeration, with goods stocked from neighborhood warehouses.

Most parts of the country don't have anywhere near that level of density, so the economies of scale wont work out like they do in Chinatown.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by panglott on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:14PM (#14248990)
Free market economics always works best in an actual marketplace, where vendors are competing stall-to-stall.

Most Americans buy groceries from a large corporate-owned store that they drive to and has everything, which compete with other large corporate-owned one-stop-shop that you have to drive to.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by phil21 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:29PM (#14249150)
This is absolutely how I feel as well. I always found it interesting the most competitive areas always happen to be where tons of very small high volume shops exist. This is not just limited to the US, but anywhere in the world I've traveled.

The older I become the more I realize how absolutely devastating the development policies of sprawl and low-density have been to all areas of human endeavor. You can't have effective competition without density and an ability to start extremely small.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by stcredzero on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:06PM (#14249547)
You can't have effective competition without density and an ability to start extremely small.

This is a good metaphor for Net Neutrality. Maybe most of the US doesn't understand Net Neutrality, because they are trapped in their strip-mall big-box store hell, and don't know about real free markets IRL.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Nav_Panel on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:20PM (#14249062)
Indeed. However, I'd argue it'd be nearly impossible to have stall-to-stall competition in your standard American city/suburb: people wouldn't be willing to drive to multiple locations, and even if all the vendors were centralized in a market (hmm, perhaps a "super-market" of sorts?), the sales aren't regular enough/in high enough volume to do away with refrigeration, which drives up start-up costs, leading to the classic natural monopoly where the "supermarket" itself is an entity selling the goods.

The Saturday morning farmer's market seems a reasonable approximation of these Chinatown markets at a sustainable scale for smaller/less dense regions. But really, population density is the magic sauce for demand in cases like this.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by panglott on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:44PM (#14249874)
Farmers' markets have a long history and were the main means by which consumers bought produce for a long time. http://digital.library.louisville.edu/cdm/singleitem/collect... http://digital.library.louisville.edu/cdm/singleitem/collect... http://digital.library.louisville.edu/cdm/singleitem/collect...

But a lot of places like this were eventually abandoned or demolished, except where they could be maintained or redeveloped as a tourist attraction, like Cincinnati did a few years ago. http://www.findlaymarket.org/

Actually, compared to farmer's markets, the big difference is the network of small-scale independent warehouses. This isn't farm-to-consumer or farm-to-retailer, it's just nimbler distribution.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:12PM (#14248971)
Not really. Drive up to Albany where there is zero foot traffic and the Asian markets are about the same price. They have coolers though.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Nav_Panel on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:25PM (#14249108)
I'm actually from Albany. There are 3 Asian markets there: "Asian Supermarket", Kim's Asian Market (never went in this one, but I think it's Korean rather than Chinese), and one more whose name I forget that's smaller but seems to have fresher produce. I never tried buying produce there (we'd mostly hoard Asian snacks) but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more expensive and less fresh than Chinatown simply as a result of the additional shipping/refrigeration required. Anecdotally, no family I knew would shop at those over the standard region supermarkets unless they needed some specific Asian ingredient, whereas in NYC many shop preferentially at the Chinatown markets.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Spooky23 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:51PM (#14249925)
Totally agree on all counts.

I think price is good but the quality varies, as everything is coming up from NYC. Typically I buy scallions, onions and peas every month or so if I stop in to pick up a few other things like dumplings or sauces.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by mikeash on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:27PM (#14249128)
I don't think produce prices are all that competitive. For one thing, it's terribly difficult to comparison shop them. The prices change all the time and you pretty much have to visit the store in person to find out what they are on any given week, so it's either waste a lot of time shopping around, or go with what you find in the store you usually visit anyway.

The fact that the prices are usually round numbers (e.g. when I buy apples they're almost always $0.99, $1.49, or $1.99/pound) seems to support the idea that stores aren't trying hard to wring out every last bit of competitiveness from this stuff.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by SubiculumCode on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:08PM (#14248914)
Maybe its just because there isn't enough competition after corporate consolidation. For the most part I see the same brands and items in stores in Virginia as in stores in California...even in the organic food stores.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by a3n on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:18PM (#14249654)
There are not enough people in an American metro area to distribute this variety across stores across the area. The produce departments sell what the computers report as margin friendly.

There are enough people in a metro area who want this and are willing to go to the asian district to get it. The five or 20 families in a subdivision who want this are not enough for all the Safeways and Krogers in the subdivision to stock this food. But enough handfuls of those families across the area are willing to go to the few stores concentrated "in the asian district" to make it viable for those few stores.

This is also capitalism at work. Huge markets and niches both have ways to operate.

As for tracking and safety, as others on this page have noted, knowledgeable (and alert) shoppers and proper preparation go a long way to promoting food safety at the end-use end of the chain.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by Alex3917 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:22PM (#14249082)
> I wonder whether this alternate network is as scrupulous about source tracking and food safety regulations.

If you think there are some regulations that Jetro or whoever is enforcing that these other wholesalers aren't then post that. Otherwise this just comes off as a subtly racist comment.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by bjt on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @03:28AM (#14253710)
What is racist about wondering whether a marginal distribution network is being as closely regulated as the dominant/mainstream one? It's a natural thing to wonder regardless of anyone's race.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by bryanlarsen on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:11PM (#14248959)
From what I understand, these networks are both small and very local. That makes them undesirable to large chains.

This is also the reason that Whole Foods has gone downhill, they used to use similar networks but as they've expanded they've been forced to use larger more mainstream suppliers.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by sushid on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:17PM (#14249030)
Well on the retail side, we do have retailers like Aldi's. You bag your own grocery and they have no workers focused on presenting the store in an ideal way. It's an IKEA maze full of warehouse goods like Costco.

I feel like the reason Safeway can't replicate this is because they have regional distributors. Having each and every store work independently requires very shrewd buyers on the retailer side. Furthermore, there's the expectation of having certain items for sale, regardless of demand or price fluctuation. There's no expectation for the Chinatown retailers.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by NwmG on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:10PM (#14248947)
Likely has something to do with scale. In particular they are able to keep a low or nonexistent administrative overhead.
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by bcaulfield on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:16PM (#14249008)
A real-world example of diseconomies of scale?
Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by bpodgursky on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:10PM (#14248948)
My understanding was that a lot of the produce sold in Chinatown markets was near expiration dates and often had already been rotated off of the shelves of normal supermarkets, often for cosmetic reasons or as a way of segmenting the market.

(basically, supermakets sell produce to Chinatown vendors for a lower price, who then move it to a segment of the market which is willing to buy non-aesthetic food which needs to be eaten in a day or two)

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by bgun on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:20PM (#14249059)
As the article mentions (and in my experience having lived and cooked in Chinatown for years) this is fresh produce from small wholesalers, not near-expired undesirables.

I don't doubt, however, that mostly untracked/untaxed cash transactions (both store-customer and wholesaler-store) contribute to some of the price differential.

Re:Why Chinatown Produce Is Cheap (2016) by landryraccoon on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:16PM (#14249022)
Your point was addressed and refuted by the main article.