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Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by labcomputer on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:29AM (#14203777)
> Furthermore, you need to plaster a vast area in the desert with solar plants, which brings along all sorts of concentrated security risks

This sentence seems to be at odds with itself. How does needing a large area concentrate security risks? If anything it seems to disperse them.

Unlike a coal or nuclear plant, you can't just walk up to a critical part of a solar farm and blow it up. Any part that you damage is relatively isolated from the parts you don't damage. Thus, it takes considerably more effort to take the entire plant offline.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by short_sells_poo on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:34AM (#14203851)
Sorry I worded that sentence poorly. Let's assume two scenarios:

a) We create a 200 square mile solar field in the Sahara, from which cables run to Europe to supply electricity. To take this plant out, one just cuts the cables. There, you just plunged Europe into darkness.

b) We create a 20x 10 square mile solar fields in the Sahara, all dispersed over a very large area. Well, this is an engineering and construction project on the scale that dwarfs even the previous project. It is truly vast. Nevermind all the political issues again.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by antisthenes on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:53AM (#14204074)
I'm surprised to see this kind of simplistic reductionist thinking on HN.

"Just cut the cables" isn't trivial. Have you ever seen a high voltage tower? Not only are they not accessible without professional gear, it's also going to require even more expensive gear to cut multiple inch thick conductors.

In all likelihood he power to Europe will be transmitted via multiple undersea cables, the effort of disrupting which would be unavailable to all but state agents, in which case the security issue is irrelevant, as you are likely already in a state of war.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by mseebach on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:35PM (#14204556)
> the effort of disrupting which would be unavailable to all but state agents

It's a good thing then that there is a long history of all state agents in northern Africa maintaining friendly and stable relations with European governments.

(Yes, said Europeans also carry a great deal of responsibility for this situation, but that doesn't make the situation any more tractable).

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by semi-extrinsic on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @04:20PM (#14206607)
Almost like the natural gas pipelines that come into Europe from our best buddy Vlad.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by thatcat on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:38AM (#14226533)
Wouldn't creating a partnership then help to stabilize that relationship?
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by petre on Sunday April 30, 2017 @01:01AM (#14230227)
Partnerships with whom? Several different warring tribes that want to gain control over the other or achieve independence? Morocco or Jordan maybe, the rest of them most likely not.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by tonyarkles on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:27PM (#14204467)
I'm not 100% positive that this is the right video, but I think it is. As part of the "overthrow a nation" plan, he talks specifically about destroying critical infrastructure, like electricity.

The solution for taking out high voltage powerlines? A pair of Skilsaws hanging under a quadcopter. Drop down onto it and... something bad's going to happen!

edit: I also missed the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1lhGqNCZlA

edit 2: I scrolled around a bit and it's near the 30 minute mark.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by antisthenes on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:57PM (#14204782)
Absolutely. The infrastructure is very fickle, but also enormous on the scale of countries.

Since we're talking about hypotheticals, I could say these things are also true:

1. There are counter-drones deployed and patrolling air space above the towers.

2. There are hundreds of independent power lines with 2N redundancy, so cutting 5-10 high voltage lines would do nothing.

3. The undersea cable points are protected by state agents and have good security for amateurs to compromise.

4. Europe will have 24-48 hours worth of storage even if ALL the lines are cut from the Solar Generation plants.

5. Europe will have backup power generation capacity in the form of locally stored and operated fossil fuel plants.

____

In other words, there's absolutely no evidence that the future hypothetical solar installation is going to be more vulnerable than the infrastructure that already exists today, and surprisingly Europe doesn't plunge into darkness every week.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by supergarfield on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @02:56PM (#14205895)
I don't think the main problem here is random terrorists cutting power to Europe by blowing up a power line tower. The real problem is that nation states that control the Sahara haven't proven to be stable (Syria, Egypt), or don't always have great relationships with Europe (Algeria in the 90s).

As to points 4 and 5, although storage and some backup capacity is reasonably feasible, this would mean that Europe could very well be forced to go to war in short order to get their full power supply back if a rogue organization gained power in North Africa.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by chris1993 on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @07:00PM (#14207798)
It might motivate Europe to improve relations with the region
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by petre on Sunday April 30, 2017 @01:06AM (#14230242)
We'll be better off building nuclear reactors, thank you. The social and political challenges are much lower and so are the risks.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by supergarfield on Thursday April 27, 2017 @09:03AM (#14211119)
(I obviously meant Libya, not Syria)
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by fbender on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:20PM (#14234449)
Burry the cables. Won't protect you from everything, but makes it a bit harder to compromise them. You can even have "cages" around them that alarm a nearby response team of any manipulation. Of course, this adds siginifcant cost, but then you have to take the total economical cost into account if an attack is successful.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by Retric on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:37PM (#14204571)
Damage that takes a few hours to fix is not going to destabilize a country. If you can scale it to keep up 24/7 disruption you already have an army and far more useful approaches like destroying ports.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by gregmac on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:14PM (#14204944)
> "Just cut the cables" isn't trivial.

Well, how many towers do you have to knock down using explosives before the lines fail?

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by candiodari on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @09:57PM (#14208617)
Just 1.

The feet of the towers are simply accessible, so there's nothing stopping people from even just using a metal file. It wouldn't be safe, but you'd get the job done.

Or just plow a truck into their feet. You only really need to bend one of the feet and the wind will do the rest.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by adventured on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @09:41PM (#14208557)
> I'm surprised to see this kind of simplistic reductionist thinking on HN.

The thinking is in fact correct. The parent should have used a better, more serious, and guaranteed inevitable scenario: war. Bomb the concentrated infrastructure and take down all of Europe's power supply. It wouldn't take very high precision and it wouldn't take a vast number of hits: it would require a few, clumsy hits, which would be nearly impossible to stop.

The present system, which tends to be far more distributed than not (to take down all the power in Europe today, you need to hit a lot of spread out targets), is vastly superior to extreme concentration.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by MR4D on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:16PM (#14208936)
Why cut it? Explosives would be much easier (think IEDs), and could be improvised from simple sources like gasoline and petroleum jelly. No need for a tool to "cut" a power line, regardless of it being above or below ground.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by ianai on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:34PM (#14208251)
I also think the location thing may be addressed in later solar technology. i.e. For our currently tech the sun really needs to be out. But as far as I remember, there's still a good amount of energy available on cloudy days (assuming it's not pitch black). As solar technology progresses so too will the locations it can be installed increase.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by brokenmachine on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:34PM (#14208250)
> it's also going to require even more expensive gear to cut multiple inch thick conductors.

I agree with most of what you've said, but cutting a few inch thick conductors doesn't seem all that hard. I think a single stick of dynamite would do it pretty easily. Two for good measure. This would still be an act of war of course.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by andrewwharton on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @07:17PM (#14207886)
The undersea cables don't need to be cut, they're perfectly capable of breaking on their own.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink#2015-2016_outage

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by eyko on Thursday April 27, 2017 @06:07AM (#14210380)
Then "evil state" bombs cables, or power plant. The point is that the cost of defending such a crucial part of our infrastructure would not be trivial, and it's still hosted on foreign soil, so... politics.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by petre on Sunday April 30, 2017 @12:55AM (#14230217)
It has been done in Crimeea last year. Pro gear to cut HV cables = C4. How do you run an undersea cable through the desert?
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by encoderer on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @07:07PM (#14207829)
Or a single car bomb?
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by Retric on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:10PM (#14204277)
Renewable power is very much going to be a distributed more than our current power generation. Further, you want redundancy in power transmission so you can do maintenance anyway and many countries are already dependent on foreign sources for a significant chunk of there daily energy demand for economic reasons. Any actor that can destroy thousands of cables can cut the power systems we have now.

Further, outside of city's you can generally get solar panels from a roof to provide power for the building under it making the grid a lot more redundant vs cutting cables.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by kpil on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @04:46PM (#14206826)
Exactly, while Sahara is obviously sunny and the land is cheap, it might not be the best place to place solar plants, due to the logistics.

I think that roof top solar is just as viable in more or less the whole Europe - even in the Nordics, at least the southern parts.

The only thing that would make desert-sized solar plants a really good business would be really cheap low efficiency cells.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by foxylad on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @09:34PM (#14208528)
> ...one just cuts the cables

Isn't this a problem with any centralised electrical power source? In fact I've always thought that terrorists could cause far more disruption by taking out a couple of transmission line towers than blowing people up. And it would only take a decent sized spanner in many cases.

The only solution to this (and to the massive resistive losses over power lines) is localising power production. And that's where solar, wind, small-scale hydro and local battery storage look very effective.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by jandrese on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:15PM (#14204948)
Seems a lot easier to fix a cable cut than a sabotaged nuclear power plant. I mean if you are the point where a nation-state is detonating fuel-air explosives over solar farms then there's probably no power plant design that is going to survive.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by Panoramix on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:49PM (#14205277)
"just cut the cables"

Not that easy. Furthermore, it's the same for any large power plant of any type. This is a very poor argument against solar. It's also a stretch to imagine that Europe would rely on a single power plant for its sustenance.

Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by hueving on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @03:14PM (#14206051)
The commenter is literally suggesting that it rely on a giant solar deployment.
Re:Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:35PM (#14208782)
You can't just walk up to coal or nuclear plant and blow it up either.

If you wanted to take a power plant offline, solar included, you would target the grid connection wiring or the high volatage transformers.