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Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:01PM (#14158509)
As with all things, this advantage will wither. I heard Milton Friedman once say something along the lines "There has never once been a natural [not the result of government action] monopoly that stayed a monopoly for very long." People just need patience and faith in the free market.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by gumby on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:24PM (#14158764)
Friedman simply made that assertion. I basically believe it, but like so many things in Economics it's true in theory yet of limited value in practice.

First of all, on human timescales (i.e. lifetimes) monopolies can be very long lived. The Standard Oil Trust was very destructive for decades, and though it might have collapsed due to natural causes, that destruction could have lasted for decades more. Which leads to the second problem: those long periods of stagnation are multiply destructive: not only do the victims pay a premium (which they could have spent on other goods), the monopoly's existence retards innovation.

The final irony in the case of Standard Oil is that is was worth more to John D Rockefeller after being broken up than it was when integrated. The government did everyone a service by breaking it up.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by iopq on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:06PM (#14159204)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

"In 1904, Standard controlled 91 percent of production and 85 percent of final sales. Most of its output was kerosene, of which 55 percent was exported around the world. After 1900 it did not try to force competitors out of business by underpricing them... Due to competition from other firms, their market share had gradually eroded to 70 percent by 1906 which was the year when the antitrust case was filed against Standard, and down to 64 percent by 1911 when Standard was ordered broken up"

sounds like if you stop trying to compete other companies will

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by Spooky23 on Thursday April 20, 2017 @05:09PM (#14160947)
What do supposed compelled Mr. Rockefeller to choose to cease his practice of driving competing companies out of business? Some sort of personal awakening?
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by adventured on Thursday April 20, 2017 @05:40PM (#14161178)
No. They were fully conscious of their position, in terms of economic power and monopoly. The Sherman Anti-trust Act was passed in 1890. They no doubt believed they had accumulated enough of the market to sustain dominance, while the overall pie continued to expand.

Rockefeller paid ransom sums for decades to buy out competitors (most of which were junk operators at best) to keep them from tanking the price of oil by dumping new strikes onto the market (a very frequent occurrence). His entire goal was oriented at market share + stability. The history of oil prices back then, was truly horrific, it was a constant boom and bust cycle that tortured most companies in the oil sector. Once Standard Oil accumulated enough of the market, including distribution (not as often talked about, they overwhelmingly controlled distribution), it could heavily control market pricing without having to own all the market. Their dominance in distribution is arguably the single most important thing they accomplished after the refining consolidation. With that gatekeeper status, they were able to demand other firms they didn't own adhere to their pricing levels, or have their distribution access cut off. In that way, they figured out how to stabilize the market pricing, without having to continue to own ~90% of the refining market.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:59PM (#14159723)
I never get the impression that people who think government intervention is good have done much research on the topic.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ABCLAW on Thursday April 20, 2017 @05:03PM (#14160868)
This will be a relatively quick and dirty skim over history, but I hope it does something to dispel this belief. The comment you're replying to ignores a number of salient factors. It assumes that natural market activity resulted in Standard Oil's declining market share. It certainly was a relevant factor, but the overarching history of Standard Oil will hopefully lead you to recognize that it did not act alone.

The Sherman Antitrust Act was passed in 1890 but it was a toothless tiger until Roosevelt assumed the office of president in 1901. Prior to then, the main case involving the act was successful in using it against labor unions. Following 1901, litigation broke up a number of companies. This is important.

Investigation at the time indicated that Standard Oil employed predatory pricing up until 1900. Following 1900, they resorted to a shell-game to obfuscate what was going on.

Amongst the first wave of anti-trust litigation targets were J.P. Morgan's holdings. He was cornering the railroad and steel industries successfully, the biggest coup being the formation of US Steel in 1901. The other crown jewel in the strategy was oil, namely Standard Oil, which operated synergistically with J.P. Morgan's holdings in rail and steel. During this time, we had characters like Elbert H. Gary, CEO of US Steel, who held cross-industry dinners aimed at setting uniform pricing for steel and providing management across businesses with consolidated positions against labour organization. While it had been growing at a steady clip beforehand, Standard Oil's value began to skyrocket as of 1901 with no real change in its core business practices.

The SCOTUS' exposition of the issue does a great job showing how Oil's monopoly was mediated in large part through Rail (the case also indicates that practices wrt pipelines were analogous to rail):

"the bill alleged that the combination and its members obtained large preferential rates and rebates in many and devious ways over their competitors from various railroad companies, and that by means of the advantage thus obtained many, if not virtually all, competitors were forced either to become members of the combination or were driven out of business"

Can't transport oil if you don't have rail cars. Can't build rail cars or rail if you can't make steel, and you can't run your trains or your steel plants without oil.

In 1902, the Roosevelt directed the AG to commence litigation to break-up of the J.P. Morgan headed railroad trust - Northern Securities Company. This matter was such a high priority that the case was resolved and reported through all levels of appeal in 1904. As a side note, this is mind-bendingly fast for competition litigation, even today.

With the threat of anti-trust litigation preventing outright predatory pricing and "competitive" rail back on the table steel and oil began to lose their moats. But "competitive" rail wasn't very competitive, and continued a legacy of providing obfuscated sweetheart deals to Standard. They got broken up 7 years later as a result. By the time steel's litigation hit in 1920, it had proper competition and did not get broken up.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ob on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:25PM (#14159364)
Or in the words of John Maynard Keynes: "In the long run, we're all dead". Which means that fixing things "in the long run" is not ideal.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by WilliamDhalgren on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:57PM (#14159700)
I dont want to go look it up to verify and properly link a citation etc, but I think Schumpeter argued that monopolies are actually good for innovation, at least of the (what's the term?) big bang, fundamental kind, because in a highly competitive marked you can't afford to set aside a significant % of budget for fundamental r&d that's only going to pay off in the very long term and not get outcompeted in the meantime.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by quaunaut on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:06PM (#14158566)
"People just need to have patience" for how many generations?

Standard Oil was a monopoly for over 20 years. There are countless monopolies that have gone on that long or longer, only to be broken up by government eventually.

I love the free market, but between regulatory capture, legal costs, and aggressive pricing structures, monopolies can be absolutely unbeatable within the career lifetime of any person.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:09PM (#14158607)
Yea, its certainly still al ong time, but I wonder why anyone feels the need to try and beat a monmopoly when they are at their best? I don't think the wider consequences of eagerly busting monopolies will be positive.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by chillacy on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:32PM (#14158870)
Government intervention definitely creates monopolies, like in the case of telecom companies or pharmaceuticals.

But it seems many aspects of capitalism lend themselves to winner take all mechanics, resulting in large companies (airliners and telecoms and entertainment companies) constantly merging and reducing competition. So without the FTC, we might have even more monopolies. Without these laws, Microsoft would be the only PC company (MS bailed apple out to keep some "competition" around) and Intel would be the only manufacturer of CPUs (likewise for Intel and AMD).

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by azernik on Thursday April 20, 2017 @04:04PM (#14160324)
Well yeah. This is the "natural" monopoly that Friedman referred to (and dismissed). From the Mother of All Wikis:

"Natural monopolies arise where the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, has an overwhelming cost advantage over other actual or potential competitors; this tends to be the case in industries where fixed costs predominate, creating economies of scale that are large in relation to the size of the market, as is the case in water and electricity services. The fixed cost of constructing a competing transmission network is so high, and the marginal cost of transmission for the incumbent so low, that it effectively bars potential competitors from the monopolist's market, acting as an early insurmountable barrier to entry into the market place."

There's a good argument to be made here they all software sub-markets are natural monopolies.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:59PM (#14159141)
Who can say what would have happenned long term? My assumption is that a true monopoly is not sustainable, but I could be wrong. I don't think the evidence is there that microsoft would remain king for long.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by jkarneges on Thursday April 20, 2017 @03:08PM (#14159806)
Facebook may be at their best, but I can still imagine the possibility of a better social networking experience. At the very least, a for-pay service where users (rather than advertisers) are the customers could result in a better product.

But we'll never know, since nobody else can reasonably enter the market.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by fdsfsafasfdas on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:25PM (#14158780)
In this case, it's hard to see the problem with facebook being broken up. Who, exactly, loses?
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by Chaebixi on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:48PM (#14159025)
> In this case, it's hard to see the problem with facebook being broken up. Who, exactly, loses?

No one except Zuckerberg, I'd think.

However, it raises an interesting question: how exactly would you break up an entity like facebook? It doesn't seem like a business that would lend itself to subdivision.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by dane-pgp on Thursday April 20, 2017 @06:00PM (#14161295)
Just as Microsoft was required to open up its Win32 APIs, one possible remedy here would be for Facebook to be forced to allow users to receive/make posts from/to their Facebook friends on any competing site, and allow people to log into those competing sites using their Facebook accounts (using a single sign-on system like OpenID Connect / OAuth 2.0).

That way each competitor could offer its own interface and algorithm for filtering people's feeds, and show their own ads (or offer a competing business model). If users opted to have their posts on the competing site automatically sent to Facebook (so their Facebook-only friends could still see them) then Facebook would be free to data-mine those posts still.

The next question is, could someone code a browser extension or other tool which makes this possible without needing any changes from Facebook's side? If it would break the Facebook terms of service, would someone crowd-fund the anti-trust lawsuit to override those terms?

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by lelandbatey on Thursday April 20, 2017 @08:32PM (#14162136)
People have tried to just "code around" these centralization issues, but Facebook/Google have a lot of developers that can put a lot of time into identifying/rate-limiting/blocking unauthorized use of their API's. Nothing has been able to get past the "but does it work almost all the time" barrier that those engineering efforts put in the way to technically circumventing centralizaiton.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by SomeStupidPoint on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:53PM (#14159666)
Geographically, like a phone network.

Then mandate interoperability with an open standard, like a phone network.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by Chaebixi on Thursday April 20, 2017 @04:20PM (#14160460)
> Geographically, like a phone network.

I don't think that makes much sense for breaking up something like Facebook.

Unlike a phone network, Facebook's service is not rooted in geography. Yes, it's users have homes and geographic locations, but those are just arbitrary account attributes, just like their name or if they like the Denver Broncos. You might as well have one post-breakup company start out with all the A-M accounts and the other the N-Z accounts.

If you had to divide up the users between N successor companies, I'd probably be best to do it based on friend-graph connectivity, with mandated interoperability between them. That might make the successors sticky enough to survive.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by SomeStupidPoint on Thursday April 20, 2017 @07:12PM (#14161732)
There's a high correlation between geography and social graph, while the part of the social graph that gets "cut" will give an incentive to make interoperability work, as people will care about it.

So your premise is true(ish), but the conclusion can't be drawn from it (and your comparison falls apart) because we don't need strict dependency on geography, only a (relatively strong) correlation.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by EGreg on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:06PM (#14159201)
Why not make an open soure alternative? How much do you hear about blogger.com and livejournal after Wordpress came out? How much do you hear about AOL after the Web came out?
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by s73ver on Thursday April 20, 2017 @08:16PM (#14162047)
They've already tried. But the biggest thing about social networks is that they really only work if the people you want to be connected to are there. Diaspora was an open source social network, and it went nowhere. Ello was supposed to be a social network that didn't sell your data, and they ended up not being able to make it as a social network. They're still around, but they've pivoted a little.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by fdsfsafasfdas on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:54PM (#14159671)
Because there are open source alternatives. Nobody uses them. Nobody used google plus, and that was a realistic replacement.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by EGreg on Thursday April 20, 2017 @03:43PM (#14160135)
Oh yeah? Please list the top 3 alternatives which are open source.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by droidist2 on Friday April 21, 2017 @12:24AM (#14163082)
GNU Social, Diaspora, and Friendica
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:00PM (#14159147)
The consumers, no? They get inferior products. Who wins? Seems like its just people who want a piece of the pie, and do they deserve it? Doesn't seem like it.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by fdsfsafasfdas on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:36PM (#14159485)
I'd argue Facebook's purchase and integration of other products is what made them inferior.... How exactly does facebook owning instagram and facebook help the consumer? They didn't need to buy it to integrate it into feeds, and that's not how most people consumed instagram anyway.

Hell, the main benefit I see to instagram is that their geotagging improved immensely.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:57PM (#14159701)
How is it worse for the consumer, though? I don't see how, under capitalism, its even possible for an abusive company to maintain a strong position.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by fdsfsafasfdas on Friday April 21, 2017 @05:49PM (#14169699)
> I don't see how, under capitalism, its even possible for an abusive company to maintain a strong position.

Network effects. Together everyone hates it; individually, there is nowhere else for people to go without losing the majority of your social network. Facebook has people; its software is utterly irrelevant to why people use it.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by s73ver on Thursday April 20, 2017 @08:17PM (#14162051)
There's nothing about that action which would imply that consumers would get inferior products.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by RobertoG on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:05PM (#14158550)
"But this long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task, if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us, that when the storm is long past, the ocean is flat again. "

John Maynard Keynes

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by Analemma_ on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:23PM (#14158756)
You are correct, but when somebody quotes Milton Friedman and says things like "have faith in the free market", you're probably not going to change their mind with a quote from Keynes.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by RodericDay on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:39PM (#14158934)
The point is not to change their minds, it's to change the mind of anyone who may happen to read both quotes.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ruleabidinguser on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:01PM (#14159162)
Whys that? Is that an offensive thing to say? You seem to think I'm incapable of changing my mind, why? You don't know me, and you think you do. Unbecoming behavior.

EDIT: And downvotes, too? I've been insulted, and I don't take kindly too it, yet I deserve to be downvoted? Thats ridiculous.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by rottyguy on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:06PM (#14158574)
Keynes: "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" which I think speaks to the frustrations of the current line of entrepreneurs.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by ookdatnog on Thursday April 20, 2017 @03:54PM (#14160240)
I like the free market and I think letting the free market do its thing is a good default solution to a wide range of problems.

I don't have faith that the free market will solve any problem well if we just wait long enough though. Nor do I believe that it's wise to just sit around and refuse to fight injustice because the problem might solve itself out in 50 years.

In this specific case, I think the network effect of social networks (ie it only makes sense to use a given social network if the people you want to communicate with use it as well) is so strong that the unregulated free market is not a good model to solve that problem.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by mars4rp on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:46PM (#14159007)
it is government action that keeps Facebook monopoly!!! Facebook, Inc. v. Power Ventures, Inc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook,_Inc._v._Power_Ventur....
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by Chaebixi on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:50PM (#14159044)
FYI, HN seems to be mangling the link by excluding the final period from the link href.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook,_Inc._v._Power_Ventures,_Inc.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by perseusprime11 on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:22PM (#14158741)
Isn't Patience the problem? It will give enough time for these monopolies to rack up money and establish dominance and driveaway several upstarts.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by Spooky23 on Thursday April 20, 2017 @05:03PM (#14160871)
That's about as qualified a statement as you can get, that is no doubt true in the alternate universe where no government exists.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by loceng on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:58PM (#14159120)
Is there really a free market? Electric vehicles were squashed for a long time because oil wanted it to be that way.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by adventured on Thursday April 20, 2017 @05:44PM (#14161201)
The smart phone is what made electric vehicles practical. That solved the chicken or the egg problem as it pertained to batteries cost & battery manufacturing scale.

There was no scenario under which the electric car was going to take off until lithium batteries were radically cheaper and available at truly massive scale. Mass market consumers do not want to drive EVs that get 50 or 80 mpg equivalent and cost $50,000.

Tesla came along only when it was finally becoming possible to do a nice EV thanks to falling lithium battery prices, at a low enough price point that well off consumers could afford them. The rest is history.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by mrep on Thursday April 20, 2017 @11:52PM (#14162987)
> Electric vehicles were squashed for a long time because oil wanted it to be that way.

Could you explain a little more? I have not heard any credible evidence to support this theory.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by maverick_iceman on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:26PM (#14158783)
Also, I don't see why a monopoly is inherently bad. If consumers actually benefit from it then what's the rationale in breaking it up? Moreover, sectors like social networking naturally favor monopolies; it's no good if your friends are scattered around 10 different sites.

The current understanding of US antitrust laws is similar. The Justice Department pursues antitrust actions only if the end consumer is being hurt.

Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by xapata on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:39PM (#14158936)
Monopolies maximize profit by setting a price greater than the market clearing price, causing a lot of unmet demand.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by wbl on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:27PM (#14159381)
Except that price must be below what competitors will offer.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by chasing on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:32PM (#14159445)
No. This is the problem with monopolies. They use other advantages to win markets without competing on price, features, or innovation. It's harmful to consumers.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by xapata on Thursday April 20, 2017 @11:35PM (#14162924)
A monopoly by definition has no competitors.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by wbl on Friday April 21, 2017 @01:59AM (#14163397)
Yes it does! It has all the competitors that could and would be started if prices rose.
Re:Why Facebook Keeps Beating Every Rival: It’s the Network by xapata on Friday April 21, 2017 @09:45AM (#14165522)
You're counting hypothetical competitors? So how do you propose measuring how many competitors there are in a particular market? With that definition, there are an infinite number even if I can currently purchase from only one vendor.