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Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by jerf on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @10:54AM (#14139290)
I know at times I may sound like a shill for Patreon, but I have no connection to them whatsoever beyond "normal customer", and don't care if you use a competitive service to them or whatever. But if you are in the position of finding yourself with a growing show like this, I implore you to set up some sort of voluntary subscription revenue as soon as possible, before you embed into the very foundation of your content a dependency on ad dollars. Even if you use it as an augment to ad revenue, it's so much better for you. It's more stable against Youtube deciding to tweak an algorithm one day. It's more stable month-to-month. It's even more socially stable since it releases you from having to chase ad dollars by keeping advertisers happy instead of your "actual" customers. If your primary money base is subscriptions rather than ads, you could even completely shift video services if you need to without crashing your income.

My interest in pitching this so often is my desire to play my little part in sticking a stake in the idea that getting advertising money is the default path to monetization. I'd rather move to a world where it's either merely one option among many, or even, dare I dream, a last resort considered vaguely déclassé.

Oh, and I would also implore you, let your patrons download video directly somehow. I'd love to not even have to go through YouTube at all. Of course, I'm a crazy Linux user for whom YouTube isn't as convenient as it could be, but it's another way to detach your patrons from a particular video service.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by stcredzero on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:02PM (#14140546)
My interest in pitching this so often is my desire to play my little part in sticking a stake in the idea that getting advertising money is the default path to monetization.

If Google and Facebook are The Internet (and for some large number of people, this is likely more than half true, in an empirical time-measurement sense) then The Internet is driven by advertisement. It's just become Cable TV 2.0.

I'd rather move to a world where it's either merely one option among many, or even, dare I dream, a last resort considered vaguely déclassé.

This was presaged by Scott McCloud. http://scottmccloud.com/ http://www.scottmccloud.com/3-home/essays/2003-09-micros/mic...

And it was rejected by the mainstream, led by those with a vested interest in the new status quo. https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/06/22

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by sandworm101 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @11:34AM (#14139709)
Fellow crazy linux user here. I follow many youtube channels but, as a canadian, am not allowed to support them with cash. (Red and all the other premium schemes never include us.) I too have trouble with youtube's interface and am often on a sat connection which makes everything more frustrating. Instead i use a combination of tools to download the vids directly, which denies my favorite channels even basic ad revenues. Youtube is the choke point.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by frgtpsswrdlame on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:42PM (#14142207)
A bit of a sidebar but what tools do you use? Youtube-dl and a script to handle lost connections or something more complicated? I'm looking for a solution to a similar problem.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by sandworm101 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @04:53PM (#14142805)
I use a rather shady service popular with filesharers. For about 3$ a month i get access to a web interface that will download from the various hosting services (ie rapidgator) but also youtube. The video downloads then as a normal mpeg file over a secure connection, not a stream. They do the same for torrents, allowing me to get many linux distros without running a torrent client over a sat connection.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by boomboomsubban on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @06:09PM (#14143446)
The script is barely necessary, youtube-dl resumes downloads when run again. If it's a regular thing, set up a cron job to run more frequently than necessary, if it's one time run the command then ; sleep 300 ; the command again

Youtube-dl just does what you want 90% of the time, and good docs for the rest.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rasz on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @06:55PM (#14143777)
I made https://github.com/raszpl/smplayer4YT for windows and chrome/vivaldi/opera
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by elsonrodriguez on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @12:39PM (#14140313)
The flipside to this is that there are people who will never ever pay money for your content, and ad revenue is the only way to directly capitalize on your popularity among those people.

This also means that when your ad revenue disappears, you will NEVER get that revenue back. Your only recourse is to get more popular, as your supporters are already buying your merchandise and donating.

It's going to become much more difficult to support yourself via creating content if step 1 becomes "be famous".

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by jerf on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:19PM (#14141385)
"It's going to become much more difficult to support yourself via creating content if step 1 becomes "be famous"."

You don't have to become famous. One of the things I love about Patreon are how some of my obscure things nobody has ever heard of are now providing a low-to-mid-grade middle class lifestyle for people you've probably never heard of.

Wander around a bit on https://graphtreon.com/ , and bear in mind a lot of what you see is hobby work, not attempts to make a living.

And also bear in mind there is no option where anybody ever just wakes up one day, decides "I'm going to make a living as an Internet content provider!" and a thousand people pour out of the woodwork to give them $3 a month right away. The question is not whether Patreon successfully thrusts success on people... the question is whether it enables it.

i.e., if I love Patreon so much why haven't I switched to make a living on it? Well, I have a realistic view of my own "content creation" skills and realize that it's not really an option for me. Patreon isn't going to magically fix that for me.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by elsonrodriguez on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @05:18PM (#14143012)
I'm speaking from experience here, I have ad revenue and Patreon.

If my ad revenue tanks, Patreon does not automatically go up, I'm just out my ad revenue for the month. For some artists this is the difference between being able to pay rent or not.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by stcredzero on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:10PM (#14140636)
It's going to become much more difficult to support yourself via creating content if step 1 becomes "be famous".

It's already becoming like this for certain forms of media. Videogames, in particular. It's amazing how many things become easier, once you've already gotten notable. Come to think of it, it's been true to some degree, even in the days when media only existed in the form of spoken word and songs.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by bigtimeidiot on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @04:18PM (#14142496)
>ad revenue is the only way to directly capitalize on your popularity among those people.

Are these people clicking ads, though? I doubt it. And if not, you aren't monetizing them directly via that method, either.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by elsonrodriguez on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @05:12PM (#14142979)
They don't have to click to monetize, but yes, some click.

Enough so that you can offset the cost of the hobby in many cases, and make a living in that rarest, most desirable of cases.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by sfifs on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:25AM (#14147899)
Most advertising is cost per impression, not click. Search is pretty much the only major cost per click type of advertising.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rasz on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @07:03PM (#14143823)
Putting adds on your content if you have viable patreon fan base just means you value your fans time at ~30 cents per hour, its a slap in the face with rotten fish.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by sp332 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:11PM (#14140651)
But to get money from ads you have to be famous too.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rhizome on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:13PM (#14141335)
10,000 views means "famous?"
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by sp332 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:16PM (#14141361)
10,000 ad views means supporting yourself from ad revenue? I mean if one person buys a t-shirt you've probably made more money, so I don't really see the advantage to ad revenue over merchandising, Patreon etc.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rhizome on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @06:42PM (#14143690)
No. YouTube announced recently that they aren't paying out on videos with less than 10K views.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/6/15209220/youtube-partner-pr...

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by corobo on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:00AM (#14147088)
Just to clarify this it's 10K views for the channel overall, not individual videos.

If your channel has 10k views total across all videos, you can monetise the next video from viewer 1.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rhizome on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:44PM (#14149158)
Thanks, that was unclear from YT messaging.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by always_good on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:27AM (#14145435)
By "make money", they meant "make more than peanuts", not "make their first $0.01".
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by aw3c2 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:13PM (#14140672)
Maybe just don't even try to capitalize on those. If you cannot sustain your work via better means then maybe it is just not worth it.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by elsonrodriguez on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @05:20PM (#14143037)
That's like telling Google to turn off all ads on Youtube tomorrow, and only rely on people who use Youtube Red to make a profit.

Or maybe Youtube is just not worth it?

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by Pxtl on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:45PM (#14141046)
From a user's perspective, though, I'm a little annoyed how Patreon has "won" in terms of user-backed content. I don't want to commit to a monthly. I would've preferred if something like Flattr had market dominance for this kind of thing.

Although obviously, content producers sided with Patreon because it gives them predictable income, which keeps them from starving.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by jerf on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:22PM (#14141431)
"I don't want to commit to a monthly."

Another part of the reason I tend to support the model is that I've watched micropayments for.... umm... gosh, about 16-18 years now. It isn't going to happen, or if it is, it's going to require something relatively fundamental to shift.

I expanded more on that 3 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14117016 (Also why I decided I need to disclaim being a shill, since these two things came in quick succession.)

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rasz on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @07:00PM (#14143802)
Twitch is doing micropayments now https://blog.twitch.tv/introducing-cheering-celebrate-togeth..., they call them bits, 1 bit is ~$0.015

First micropayment service that actually is _micro_.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by jamesjansson on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:14PM (#14153439)
Not really first. I run Tapview, we do micropayments that you can put on your own site, and we go down to 1 cent. Also, I'd say we are definitely not the first.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by HCIdivision17 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:34PM (#14141545)
There are other methods, I think. At least one guy I back does it based on a per-comic basis. Granted, the comics are big and usually go longer than a month, but it's pretty good, I think. Takes some of the 'gotta-deliver-constantly' off him, and it only charges what is delivered.

Which may just be an open pre-order on my part. Which is sort of the stupidest way to buy anything, I suppose, except for the social trust aspect I have in him.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by maxmcorp on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @02:06AM (#14145808)
As a content creator a small monthly fee can be better. Otherwise you risk everything to turn into a "gifrecipe" format. Monthly income can make it possible to make more in depth content.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by Pigo on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @12:44PM (#14140369)
If the channels I enjoy were all setup through the same service, whatever it may be, it would be easy for me support new media while tracking my budget better. I can be forgetful, and it feels like some subscriptions are built around attaching themselves to your credit card and staying under your radar. But I need to do a better job of supporting these channels I spend so much time on.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by stcredzero on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:07PM (#14140594)
This sounds like a problem worth solving. What about a browser add-on, something like Patreauto? You could budget some amount per month, and it would automatically distribute payments to the top 40 video creators you watch?
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by gresrun on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:46PM (#14141660)
What you're describing is effectively what YouTube Red does. You pay a flat monthly amount and revenue is distributed out to creators based upon the videos you watch. [0]

Full disclosure: I work at YouTube but not on Red.

[0] https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6306276?hl=en

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by smoe on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @04:08PM (#14142412)
Sorry if i missed something obvious, but from the linked page it not entirely clear to me if my monthly amount would be distributed only between the channels I actually watch or like Spotify where content producers get their revenue based on their share of total views in the pool favoring the people on top.

"New revenue from YouTube Red membership fees will be distributed to video creators based on how much members watch your content."

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by thescriptkiddie on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @04:53PM (#14142803)
Unfortunately it sounds like it uses the Spotify model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvaxkpeSg_4

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by smoe on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @06:44PM (#14143704)
Ok, then Red makes no sense for me and the channels I watch as a viable alternative to patreon.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by figure8 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:49PM (#14141689)
I use YouTube Red and love it. My YouTube usage has doubled because I don't see ads. And I feel good knowing I'm helping the video makers whether I skip ads or not.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by corobo on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:02AM (#14147096)
As soon as you guys bring Red to the UK I'm on it. Do you know of anything about the rollout schedule? It actually feels like YouTube's given up on Red from this end of the pond.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by rhizome on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:49PM (#14141092)
You're describing the Payments feature in the Brave browser:

https://blog.brave.com/introducing-brave-payments/

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by zobzu on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:36PM (#14140948)
id use that
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by brudgers on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:37PM (#14142159)
The difference between advertising and Patreon is B2B versus B2C. It is the difference between sales based on economic value and donations solicited through donor development; between competing based on ROI and competing based on prestige and need each individual's alma mater, place of worship, or local food bank.

Creating content every day or several times a day is what fans demand. It's not a question of if a dumb idea will make it into production and upset the audience, just a matter of when. Consider it like bugs.

PewDiePie's patron, Disney, dropping him was a reversion to the norm. As recent stories about large advertisers reallocating dollars illustrate, it takes something a lot worse before eyballs and clicks don't drive the decision.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by RichardHeart on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @08:08PM (#14144284)
If you like a persons content enough to pay them for it, then it might make sense to view the videos some way that isn't youtube. Perhaps, Pateron should team up with someone and offer the video hosting perhaps.

I'd like to see competition for youtube. They'd fuck up less if there were a more compelling reason for them to stop fucking up.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by Chattered on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:33PM (#14149754)
I'd love to see IPFS video (https://ipfstube.erindachtler.me/ ) get used for this sort of thing. For static, high-bandwidth content like video, that is created by users and for public domain, it makes more sense to be than a fat centralised pipe that's extremely expensive to maintain.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by bargl on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:04PM (#14141859)
Does Patreon work on a per view basis? I'd love to be charged per view of a video similar to an add, but I can add in value as I want to. It would be nice so that I don't have to pay one person more than I should and others nothing.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by csydas on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:12PM (#14141937)
No, Patreon has two options: Monthly and Per Release, which has a monthly cap that patrons can set. I'm not sure that there is enough of a hook into the various platforms to allow a per-view style payment system.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by bargl on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:20PM (#14142011)
It would be nice to have something similar to youtube red for watching videos I just don't really want to pay youtube. I'd like content to be spread around a little more.
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by dkersten on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:27PM (#14140841)
d love to not even have to go through YouTube at all

Agreed! I already back many of the people I watch regularly on patreon and am sick of all of the irritating adverts, so I'd much rather just download the videos and watch them directly.

Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by zobzu on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:35PM (#14140939)
i just adblock and yes on android too on a rooted device, and patreon everyone that has it setup much much better experience and it doesnt cost much... and yes its unfair to youtube, but hey, they make their own choices that are unfair are well
Re:How YouTube’s Shifting Algorithms Hurt Independent Media by ziikutv on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:00PM (#14141817)
This is why people are adding Pateron to their channels. Asking for monthly or single pledges from their fans to continue making content. There are many people already doing this.

Easter Egg: "Bos in the house"

Regards,