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Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by sz4kerto on Monday April 17, 2017 @10:52AM (#14131250)
I'm afraid this is going to happen inside the EU as well (Hungary, Poland... ). What can I do to prevent this? (I live here ​and I want to keep living here if possible.)
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by rocketpastsix on Monday April 17, 2017 @10:55AM (#14131276)
Talk to people, try to understand their reasoning. Explain to them what will happen if (x) happens. Dont do what we Americans did in the last election and call anyone on the right homophobes, racists, xenophobe etc. That just pushes them further to the other side. Be understanding, but present the facts and hope they understand you.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by beagle3 on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:48AM (#14131763)
I hate to post non constructive criticism, but ... unless you do that in a coordinated effort with thousands of others, that's just wasting your time.

The reach of any one person without an amplifier of sorts (traditional media, facebook popularity, etc), is essentially zero; Even in the extremely unlikely case that you've changed the minds of 1,000 people you talked to (because to change 1,000 people's mind and vote, you need to speak to 20,000), it's still a rounding error.

It will make you feel good that you tried while you're at it, yes. It will also demonstrate how powerless you are if the results go against your wishes (or falsely make you think you contributed if they go your way).

It's the same as fighting the centralization of the web, the big brothering of facebook/nsa, etc - you have to mobilize people to act, many of them. And sadly, it's very rarely possible or within one's power.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Profragile on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:23PM (#14132123)
This. Voting is essentially always "setup" i.e. the people who make maximum use of the power usually bet on both sides, albeit slightly differently. Since they know it's either one or the other, it doesn't really matter to them who really wins. They have necessary control of the situation no matter what happens.

If you don't frame your life in a way that whoever wins matters to you very less, you are doing something wrong. If that is already the case, your vote doesn't count at all. It's one vote. The chance of your vote actually affecting the outcome of the election is so small that you might as well buy a lottery ticket instead.

If however, you have the power to convince a large enough group of people to sway the election to one side or another, you should sell some of that influence to whoever is offering more money or favors to you.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by noobermin on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:29PM (#14132183)
>If you don't frame your life in a way that whoever wins matters to you very less, you are doing something wrong.

The answer is it does matter, and that you have such little influence is a failure of the system. I'm not talking about one vote, it's that some individuals have more influence over politicians due to their campaign donations. That is unacceptable.

The answer once again is get money out of politics.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by beagle3 on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:31PM (#14132785)
Chicken and egg. Incumbents, the only people capable of taking money out of politics (short of some kind of revolution) enjoy the status quo too much to change it.

You can only take money out of politics after you've taken money out of politics

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Profragile on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:08PM (#14133075)
So do you agree that unless the money is out of politics, participating in voting is futile?
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by noobermin on Monday April 17, 2017 @08:05PM (#14135505)
I view your question as "do you agree that since you can't cure cancer, you shouldn't take painkillers or symptom treatments." No, I don't agree. It's just that instead of casting it as the state of being that you are powerless, it is instead that you should fight back.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by maxerickson on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:54AM (#14131827)
Is it then a paradox that the first step towards organizing would be to talk to people?
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by beagle3 on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:28PM (#14132758)
It's not the same people op mentioned talking to, though; op laid an outline to possibly changing the mind of one person who disagrees with you. But to make a dent, you have to address the masses (and to do that, you have to coordinate with the masses on your side).
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by noobermin on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:16PM (#14132057)
Schumer said "for every blue collar dem we lose we'll gain middle class suburban whites." That didn't work out, R's turned out for their candidate, as they always do.

The answer is not to suppress the leftist vote and care about the working class' concerns.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Ralfp on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:37AM (#14131678)
I'm from Poland.

We are seeing failure of trust in to EU because its terrible at PR. Its successes are taken as local governments successes ("our govt is awesome, it snatched the money from those bureaucrats for new architecture!") which failures are easily blamed on Brussels ("We wanted to rescure our failing Shipyards and coal mining, but Brussels tells us we can't because its unfair competition! In meantime French and Germans have no issues like that! This is unfair competition and favorism of west-dominated Union!").

Then you have usual of their weird decisions that are brought as example of overgrown bureaucracy without attempt to understand the reasoning behind it. "Hey, did you hear? Idiots in Brussels decided that snails are fish, what an idiots" the popular saying goes, meantime nobody cares that such decision saved EU from making up separate legislature for seafood farming and trade.

Then we have refugee crisis which is generally something considered result of poor decisions beind done in western EU side that it is trying shift the blame on across all of the union. The situation where in Poland is explictly named amongst the countries that show no solidarity while at same time we've accepted one million people from UA doesn't help neither.

With all of this going on, its easy for populist guys to gain widespread support. However situation in Poland where traditionalistic-populistic gov gained enough of majority to rule on its own is (IMHO) primarily the result of weak opposition, whose entire idea and programme was "we are saner than those other folk" but instead we've got liberal party apparently become traditionalist one with leaks after leaks of them doing disappointing deals with each other or private business. This effectively sank primary opposition party in polls.

They've also made some harsh steps to improve the grim future of our social security system via bumping retirement age as well as forcefully relocating bulk of private savings to the public fund.

http://www.reuters.com/article/poland-pensions-idUSL6N0H02UV...

Apparently there's trend in the polls going on for few weeks now giving them growing support, but its most likely the wave of popular disgust for current gov, which would be story from 2006 repeating itself. I'm unsure if they are capable of fixing things.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Darthy on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:22PM (#14132108)
I think the problem is much deeper than that. There is not enough of a democratic process in the EU. It would have benefitted from an approach with much more direct democracy. Because then there is no favoritism, and people realize that they have it in their own hands.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by vidarh on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:46PM (#14132367)
But the quandry is that a more democratic EU requires constitutional change in most member states to cede sovereignty. The EU largely is the way it is as a result of a bunch of hacks making use of legislatures or even executives power to bind delegates of the executive under treaty to act in certain ways, or basically bind the legislatures to act in support of their executives.

The problem with this is that these hacks will continue to be used against the EU even when trying to reform them: It's easy to argue against handing sovereignty to an organisation with such a baroque decision-making process.

A lot of effort has gone into transitioning more powers to the EU parliament, but ultimately, it will be impossible to get where the EU ought to be in terms of which organs have which powers without very difficult processes in most of the member states.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Darthy on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:10PM (#14132585)
I agree such a change is difficult, but I believe it's difficult precisely because it's currently not very democratic.

Deeply direct democracy is self-sustaining - people would agree to move over to a new system because it would give them more power than they have in the current parliamentary systems.

The problem as far as I see is the current political class (parliamentarians and people in the executive branch), which would lose power. And since this is who currently has the power, and it's always nearly impossible to make somebody give up power, that's the reason why this won't happen.

But Europe is in a state of crisis now, and maybe this crisis is great enough to motivate this class to move to a more open system.

If you think about it, the current indirect democracy (with parliaments and the electoral college etc) is a remnant of a time when a decision took days to travel through the whole land, and to be reasonably fast and decisive, you had to have them. Thanks to the internet, we could even go past such direct democracies like Switzerland and allow each citizen to vote at each bill, or if she didn't want to spend the time, leave that decision to a parliamentarian of her choosing, but with the option to take power again or give it to a different parliamentarian at any moment. Now that is true democracy. No back-hand deals, and no favoritisms anymore.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by petre on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:38PM (#14134217)
It's not impossible to make those in power give it up, but it requires a revolution and revolutions sadly imply violence most of the time.

Switzerland was always an okay model of how to run a federation.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by petre on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:25PM (#14134111)
> a more democratic EU requires constitutional change in most member states to cede sovereignty

Ceding sovereignity always leads to less democracy and more central control, not the other way around.

The EU is starting to look a lot like a modern day Austria-Hungary, only bigger. We all know what happened to Austria-Hungary: WWI.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by vidarh on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @04:57AM (#14137326)
That's simply not true. The EU has over time handed more and more power away from the council and commission and to the parliament. There is a demonstrated will to hand more power to parliament at the cost of the council and commission and any treaty changes to do so (accompanied by according constitutional changes) would reduce sovereignty while reducing central control.

As it stands, the Treaty of Lisbon went about as far as it could in handing additional powers to the EU Parliament while triggering the minimal number of constitutional changes for member parliaments, and look at the circus that turned into. And that was first after the attempt at a constitution failed.

The centralisation you worry about already happened many years ago, and the sovereignty issue is now largely the blocker to devolving more that power to the EU parliament, and after the trouble getting the Treaty of Lisbon through there's little appetite to take another round anytime soon.

That Lisbon has given substantially sharpened teeth to Parliament has been demonstrated repeatedly, with both the Commission and Council of Ministers having been forced to backtrack or compromise in areas where they previously would have been able to do what they wanted.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by subpixel on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:14PM (#14132031)
This article chronicles the move of a factory from Britain to Poland and is a great intro to current Polish politics with regard to the EU: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n08/james-meek/somerdale-to-skarbi...
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by petre on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:22PM (#14134081)
The refugee crisis and the sovereign debt crisis combined could ultimately dismantle the EU.

I think Poland's decision to stick with the zlot is a good one on the long term. Once you switch to the Euro you've surrendered control of your currency to Bruxelles and there is no going back.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by egeozcan on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:49PM (#14132395)
Why is it unfair competition when you produce ships? That sounds absurd, is there a more detailed explanation?
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Ralfp on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:23PM (#14132710)
Hold on.

Poland is post-communist country. During previous system it maintained many companies that weren't economically viable. Shipyards weren't build because it was economically viable to have shipyard there or there. They were build because Communists knew it was easy to guarantee mass employment by expanding heavy industry. This means that any polish city on our coastline with population required to staff shipyard got one. This shipyard would then employ between 20 to 50 thousand people on its own, as well as give employment for countless other people working in the region in shops supplying those shipyards or their workers. People from nearby smaller towns would then flock to larger towns to work here.

When system changed, so did the need for our fleets (in old system we've even maintained the Pacific Trade fleet and Pacific Shrimpfishing Fleets!) and in result the shipbuilding and maintenance services plummeted. It was same all across the board. Coal mining, steel mills, farming, weaving. Millions of people had to find their place in new reality. It wasn't surprise that people elected those promising heavy donations for what was left from first democratic's governments mass privatization, closures and sales. This meant polish taxpayers were keeping nonprofitable remnants of heavy industry in meantime being fed promises next governments about reforms coming in that will reduce the burden and sitting down by TV after work to watch in the news how our coal miners or shipbuilders strikes made current govt cave in, postpone cuts and offer another "mobilisation package" of millions of taxpayer money for keeping those industries alive.

This was business as usual until the year 2004 happened and Poland entered EU, which has changed the rules of the game and started hammering our govts for dishing so much taxpayers money at non-profitable private companies, that thus don't have to really care about being competitive with others.

How is this judged? Depends on region you are from. Some areas judge this in plus for EU because "apparently EU respects our money more than our own government".

But for other this is proof that EU wants to kill our heavy industry. Occasional news of EU letting same slip for some company in Germany or France is then blown out of proportion by the media to whole shipbulding in the west being taxpayer funded being allright while suspiciously its wrong when its polish govt helping polish companies.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by egeozcan on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:38PM (#14132836)
So, I take that they say it's unfair because the government needs to help the shipyards to make them economically viable. Thank you for the detailed answer.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by lossolo on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:10AM (#14131426)
Don't worry, if elections would be made today in Poland then ruling party (PiS) would lost (opposition would have more votes so coalition would be possible). Poland is the most EU enthusiastic society in EU. Most of the things that ruling party does now was not in their program before elections, people protested on streets but it's democracy, you need to wait for next elections. Orban in Hungary is very pragmatic, he talks a lot but when pressured in EU he will take step back. In Hungary genesis is different, 8 years ago there was big economic crisis there, country was on the edge of bankruptcy, Orban and his party changed things, people just voted for bread.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by uiri on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:46AM (#14131743)
Poland is the most EU enthusiastic society in EU

I find this ironic since they are not part of the Eurozone. Their economy is much less at risk from mismanagement in Greece than France, the Netherlands or Germany.

it's democracy, you need to wait for next elections

In a representative democracy, you need to wait for the next elections. In a parliamentarian democracy, a vote of no confidence can trigger elections (like Canada in 2011) or the Prime Minister can ask the Crown to dissolve parliament and call elections (like the UK in 2010). This can lead to situations like 3 elections within 5 years (Canada 2006, 2008, 2011). In the US, federal elections are every two years, with the whole House being up for election and 1/3 of the Senate while the President is up every other Congressional election.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by tonyedgecombe on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:55AM (#14131838)
You can be enthusiastic about the EU but not the Euro, I can't imagine any of the successor nations are in a hurry whilst the Greek and Italian issues are unresolved.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by petre on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:55PM (#14134342)
You are right about Polish economy less likely being at risk than Greece and Italy's. This is mainly because Poland is not part of the EMU and retain control over their currency.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by tormeh on Monday April 17, 2017 @10:59AM (#14131313)
Looking at 1930s Germany, the fortunate ones were the ones who got out early. Stopping the political pendulum is hard; it's easier to get out of the way.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by kmonsen on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:03AM (#14131367)
But where to go?
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by virmundi on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:29AM (#14131617)
Florida. Sunny, has many beaches. Broadband even in small towns like Palatka. Low cost of living. A good balance of all kinds of crazy. You can even own guns, a big truck and more guns while living on a large river if you so choose all on a salary of about 60k. Then you're just a half hour away from nice size cities.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by ameen on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:24PM (#14132135)
I live in Tampa and love it here. It isn't as conservative as touted. But the recent news out of Cleveland has me on my edge. I don't want to live in a place where crazed individuals can carry guns freely.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by virmundi on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:30PM (#14132199)
Here's the thing, unless you could somehow get rid of every gun on the planet, crazy with a gun is a thing. Given that people can hand craft a revolver with parts from Home Depot, guns are a thing. I am fairly liberal. I'd rather allow good guys with guns to carry than not.

It's better to allow people liberty than to take it away in the name of safety. It's better to realize that anyone can make highly damaging weapons at home (looking at you Boston Bomber).

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by masklinn on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:40AM (#14131708)
Florida seems like an absolutely terrible place to get out of totalitarian risk considering the current executive and legislative at both state and federal levels.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by virmundi on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:54AM (#14131829)
It only seems like that. As I said Florida is a nice balance of crazy. We've got several metropolitan areas that appeal to the leftist. We've got a lot of conservative areas too. For the most part people just leave you alone. Florida also has some of the most liberal information laws on the books. That's why we look so crazy. We're also heavily armed with 10s of thousands of former military that take their oaths to the constitution seriously. If we were to have a civil war, I like Florida's odds.

Also, the US government wouldn't nuke their own people. If they did, they won't target Florida. Since those are off the table, we're talking about a traditional war. As we've seen with Afghanistan, the US military doesn't know how to fight an asymetric war. Good luck trying to get people that live in the hundreds of square miles of swamp.

Arms are a big factor. Europe is at far greater risk of authoritarian regimes because their people are effectively disarmed. A few single shot shotguns won't do much. If only their population had ready access to AK47s, AR 15's or event bullpups out of Israel.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by cardiffspaceman on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:18PM (#14132077)
> Florida also has some of the most liberal information laws on the books. That's why we look so crazy.

I think this bears emphasis: Pretty much every crime report provided to or made by the police within Florida, silly or sublime, is available to the public [1]. This is a gold mine for people who want to run a "stranger than fiction" web site. It could distort one's view of what Florida is like.

[1] http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/how-floridas-proud-open-go...

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by kowdermeister on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:09AM (#14131423)
If you can work remotely, I'd pick something nice and sunny with a beach.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by sz4kerto on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:29AM (#14131622)
I can work remotely, but I can't bring my friends and family with me, and I can't bring all the other things. So I rather try and make 'this' a better place, if possible.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by kowdermeister on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:50AM (#14131774)
That's great, luckily it doesn't seem that Hungary will collapse to something Turkey is becoming now.

Have you been to Okotogon or other protests? I have and it was really inspiring to see that many young faces around. I Support all efforts of making Fidesz the least appealing party. That's probably all we can do if violence is not considered.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by egeozcan on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:06PM (#14132548)
Well, do you know about Gezi protests? We also had that kind of inspiration. Just saying.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by sz4kerto on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:28PM (#14132173)
Of course I've been :)
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by johnchristopher on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:55AM (#14131837)
From a West European citizen Canada has always seemed a good idea. Norway, Sweden and Finland are good candidates notwithstanding the language barrier.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by inputcoffee on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:26AM (#14131590)
That is a great question.

I think spending time to think about how to best answer that question is probably the best thing one can do to prevent similar events.

We are in the middle of this strange global event and you can tell from the profusion of explanations that no one knows what the reason is.

-- loss of confidence in institutions?

-- wealth gap?

-- tech enabled cultural sabotage?

-- "globalization"?

And so on. I think people don't even know why it is happening yet. There is a lot of cognitive labor ahead.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Mikeb85 on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:14PM (#14132027)
The reasons are pretty clear. Some just refuse to acknowledge them.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by inputcoffee on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:23PM (#14132122)
Well, don't keep us in suspense. What do you think the reasons are for... first, describe the phenomenon under discussion because I think that is the first challenge.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Mikeb85 on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:38PM (#14132286)
Globalisation and immigration have weakened the relative wealth of the working classes.

The left refuses to acknowledge the problem while the right (and far right) does, so guess where that leads?

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by inputcoffee on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:16PM (#14132638)
Just so you know: HN doesn't let people downvote responses to their own comments.

However, in the context here, you think that:

Erdogan swept into power because the working class in Turkey has been "weakened" by immigration and globalization?

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Mikeb85 on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:18PM (#14132665)
My account is 4 years old, I know the first detail.

Second, the parent of your comment was about right-wing parties rising in Hungary and Poland.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by inputcoffee on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:37PM (#14132831)
So you think the "populist" forces at work in Turkey are not the same as those in Hungary and Poland? Are they the same as those in the US? or Syria?

I am asking because I think most writers think of these as part of a larger global movement, but your comments suggest you think they are different.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Mikeb85 on Monday April 17, 2017 @02:50PM (#14133398)
No, they're not. Populist forces in the west are intrinsically linked to the collapse of blue collar industries and jobs as well as forced immigration, and aren't necessarily nationalist, it's more a reaction against the status quo.

In Turkey and the Middle East Islamism has been rising, partly due to the collapse of Arab nationalism and partly due to Saudi Arabia's worldwide propagation of Wahhabism.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by egeozcan on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:53PM (#14132435)
I couldn't guess it. No, I'm not being sarcastic.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Mikeb85 on Monday April 17, 2017 @01:16PM (#14132643)
Read someone like Piketty. He has tons of data to back up the assertion that the working classes are losing relative wealth.

Then take an economics course. Realise that globalisation outsources manufacturing, agriculture, services, etc..., lowering costs, but also lowering wages. This is by design. The 'Information' industry in the west was supposed to make up for the loss of blue collar jobs. Except it hasn't.

And then also realise that immigration increases the size of the workforce, especially the uneducated workforce. Again, downward pressure on wages.

Personally I think progressive economics provides a better solution than the regressive protectionism of the right. Except the left pretends there's no problem, and here we are.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by kowdermeister on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:12AM (#14131446)
Try to convince people who stay off voting booths to actually go there and remove Fidesz from power next year.

The "no alternative" is a lame excuse, Momentum is coming up and even giving a vote to MKKP would be better than staying home.

Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by Mikeb85 on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:12PM (#14132013)
You're afraid Hungary and Poland are going to be taken over by an Islamic dictator? Or are you referring to the rise of nationalist parties?
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by noobermin on Monday April 17, 2017 @12:26PM (#14132157)
Like Trump and Kim Jong Un feed off each other, ideology doesn't matter, two strongmen fighting each other strengthen each other's power in their respective country.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by rjtavares on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:06AM (#14131398)
I think there's a danger today with intelligent people moving away from politics due to the mess they perceive it as being (IMO, rightfully so). The problem is that when you take a certain level of rationallity out of politics you let extremism flourish. We need to fix moderate parties, but I have no idea how to do that...
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by dgregd on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:27PM (#14134125)
If you are really worried about this then stop reading mainstream news propaganda, especially GW, TVN24, Newsweek. Poland leaving EU is the newest oposition narrative to discredit current government. That's all. People don't care about TK any longer so oposition created the new faked news.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by petre on Monday April 17, 2017 @04:12PM (#14134009)
Do away with career politicians by effectively limiting their terms just as all demicracies do with presidents. But this is very hard to do in the curreny system without massive citizen initiative, because the politicians will never vote for such a measure.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by odiroot on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:07AM (#14131406)
Then, I am sorry, you lack insight in this area. At least Poland is one of the most pro-EU countries.
Re:RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017 by hutzlibu on Monday April 17, 2017 @11:11AM (#14131442)
pro-EU and pro-Humanrights are not quite the same.