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Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by perilunar on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:01AM (#14001473)
We need one soon though. The housing market is a massive bubble that needs deflating.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by 2muchcoffeeman on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:36AM (#14001611)
What is the reasoning behind this sort of opinion?

If the economy keeps doing well, wouldn't salaries increase?

Couldn't the government invest more in less populated areas around the capital cities so that living in those areas becomes more feasible?

Why have a recession?

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by cyberferret on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:45AM (#14001658)
I live in Northern Australia, one of the most expensive cities to live in within the country (exceeding even Sydney in a lot of cases), and salaries have absolutely NOT increased to match the rate of real estate pricing.

Sure in some niche jobs (mining sector etc.) there are positions paying massive money ($100K+) to young kids just out of school or an apprenticeship, but overall, in the government sector and small business, the disparity is widening at an alarming rate.

I honestly have no idea how young couples starting out today even are able to afford a small two bedroom unit without BOTH of them being in high paying jobs. I think we will surely see population growth slowing as there is pretty much no way young couples can have a baby and have one parent off work for up to a year to care for the baby, AND own/rent a house/apartment.

Our city is seeing a massive exodus of people, heading south for cheaper pastures - so much so that they (our state government) are holding crisis community meetings to try and ascertain how they can get people to stay. We are talking people who have been here for generations too, not just your average 'fly in fly out' workers.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by jacques_chester on Friday March 31, 2017 @07:26AM (#14002709)
Darwin is a boom-bust town and pretty much always has been.

It's entering a bust now because Inpex is wrapping up. I expect unit prices will fall sharply, now that there's a glut.

I was there a few weeks ago for the first time in several years and was basically amazed by how many new apartment buildings had been stamped out.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by cyberferret on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:00AM (#14003222)
Oh yes, they are busy putting up apartments everywhere, but I think a vast majority of them - possibly more than 50% will sit empty for a while when Inpex reaches endgame. Just across the road from us, they started building a 4 storey apartment/shopping complex last year, but the company in charge pulled it a few months ago because they could see the writing on the wall. It's just a 1/4 built concrete framework, and likely to stay that way for years.

We visit the local markets frequently, and almost all the stall holders (some who have been at the markets for 2 or more decades) are struggling. All the local hotels and services apartments are occupied by fly in fly out workers, taking rooms that tourists normally buy in the dry season, and they don't visit markets or spend coin locally. Inpex was touted as a boon for the Northern Territory, but it has been a total bust for us. I really love Darwin, but I fear it will be a ghost town in a few years.

Did you walk down the mall in the CBD when you were here? Notice how many empty shops and 'For Lease' signs were up all over the place?

We used to have a solid public service contingent in this town, which sort of kept things going through the lean times, but even that is under threat. Our newly elected Territory government is looking to axe 100+ jobs over this year via natural attrition. We've already sold off most of our high value assets (the port and our TIO insurance company etc.), and the Federal government have just announced they are slashing $2billion from our GST revenue share over the next few years. There is not much left in the kitty.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:41AM (#14002299)
I used to live in Adelaide. There's no way I could afford to buy a house anywhere I actually wanted to live.

Some out of the ordinary life circumstances arose, and I ended up moving to Launceston in Tasmania. I was able to buy a house in an area I wanted to live in here for $215,000. I can't fathom taking on twice that on, even on dual incomes, that sort of loan would make me feel ill.

My job is in metal fabrication, the past 12 months have been much slower than the previous 10 years, things have slowed down a great deal.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by jpatokal on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:01AM (#14002867)
Only twice that? In Sydney, median house prices are north of $1,000,000 now, and in my unsexy and until recently very-working-class inner west suburb the median is tickling $2M.

(Yes, it's completely insane, and even more insane is that nobody else seems to find it insane...)

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by daemin on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:09AM (#14003289)
Really? I would consider Adelaide a much easier place to afford to buy property. It has not really seen as high or as long period of price increase as the eastern state cities.

But I guess that's the case everywhere in Australia. The places where a young person wants to live (young / without children) is not somewhere which they can afford.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by cyberferret on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:52AM (#14003159)
I've visited Tasmania a few times and LOVE Launceston. Would move there in a heartbeat, but the trick is, if things don't work out, we could never, EVER afford to move back here. I have older parents etc. still living here, so can see that we might have to either stay, or work out some sort of cunning plan to try and share time between the two locations.

$215,000 wouldn't even buy you a 1 bedroom squat here. I could probably sell my place and buy a BIG place in Launceston, but like I said, if it ever came that we had to move back here to care for elders, it won't be possible at all.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by gonzo41 on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:32AM (#14003544)
Hey give it a go renting, I moved to Tassie for a year and that turned into 5. Hobart is awesome and before I bought my place 7 minutes from the CBD for 330K, I used to rent a place for 250 a week. And now my mortgage payments are still less than what I was paying for a townhouse in Canberra. Locals think its expensive, but play the long game with Tassie and things are looking good.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by cylinder on Saturday April 01, 2017 @09:53AM (#14012116)
But ALL houses have not increased in price, only the ones that were offered up for sale. So, niche salary gains and niche housing price spikes. If all the houses came for sale on the same day, I guarantee the prices would not remain this high, but that's not how it works.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by spangry on Friday March 31, 2017 @07:31AM (#14002726)
To make the technical (and somewhat cold-hearted) argument: because it will correct a massive mis-allocation of capital in the Australian economy. This mis-allocated capital is being poured into existing residential real estate (80% of property investment is in already existing properties). It's capital that could otherwise be put to some productive purpose, like business loans for example.

The above is basically a stylised description of what has actually been happening in Australia over the past two decades: real estate loans have been crowding out business loans: http://i.imgur.com/g7a9QDL.png . The upper bound for sophisticated public discussion on economic policy is, IMHO, when pollies yammer on about 'productivity' (a depressingly low 'upper bound', and not without its own issues). If we are truly serious about lifting multi-factor productivity, then we should not be distorting capital investment decisions with crazy-expensive tax breaks for property investors.

It would be great if we could correct this problem, without serious macroeconomic upheaval, by gradually phasing in tax reforms. But that opportunity passed us by about a decade ago. The reforms still have to occur, mind you. It's just that now we pretty much have to eat a massive property bust (and possible crisis in the financial sector) first.

As for the reforms, my top 3 would be:

- Change capital gains back to indexation by inflation (rather than a flat 50% discount after 1 year of ownership).

- Get the States to slowly repeal stamp duty on property and insurance, and slowly introduce a tax on the unimproved value of land (say, over a 5 year timeframe).

- Simplify and repeal a whole bunch of zoning and land planning laws and regulations, at both the State and local council level.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by daemin on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:05AM (#14003255)
One of the big ones should be removing negative gearing on existing non-primary-residence properties. This is a fairly big reason why the boom is continuing.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by flukus on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:45AM (#14001656)
Salaries and housing prices have become completely decoupled. Home ownership is now out of reach of most Australians. More urban sprawl isn't really a solution because traffic will never cope.

Most people haven't seen the benefits of economic growth, so they don't really care if we have a recession, it's mostly going to hit the wealthy investing in housing. A housing market crash will be the biggest redistribution of wealth the countries ever seen.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by 2muchcoffeeman on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:31AM (#14002504)
> More urban sprawl isn't really a solution because traffic will never cope.

I'm suggesting that new business centres be created so that people can live in cheaper areas, and still be close to their jobs. This should reduce traffic since fewer people will need to commute.

But I am not a City Planner. I have no idea what is feasible or not. But there must be lots of industries that don't need to be in the CDB.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by caf on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:40AM (#14002537)
Ultimately there should be a string of cities between Melbourne and Sydney, a la the Boston to Atlanta corridor.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by pbhjpbhj on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:35AM (#14002518)
Considering the general problem: there has to be a better way to control landlords. Allow them to earn a reasonable living but keep a cap on house and rental prices whilst preventing speculators from inflating prices too. Controls that would keep a lockstep between median wages and house prices without having to rely on a price crash coming and giving a few lower income people a chance.

Is the problem lack of political will to fix this sort of error (capitalism beating socialism)? Or maybe that solutions are applied but are ineffective?

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by Joakal on Friday March 31, 2017 @07:44AM (#14002787)
There's a lot of buyers who just keep the property, not even renting it out. Several policies contribute to high prices:

> Negative gearing.

> 1st house exempt from pension assessment. ie, 2 billion dollar house, but can collect pension. Have 100k(?) cash in bank? No pension.

> First home buyer grant. Originally intended to encourage more housing, instead is used to buy existing properties.

Proposed policies in parliament:

> Using super for houses. Yes, people could put their retirement savings in a house in a market that could collapse and lose a lot of money.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by taneq on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:35AM (#14003039)
Yeah, it hit me recently that every single measure ever proposed to 'help' housing affordability simply propped the market up even further. Making it easier to for more people to pay larger sums for houses is the last thing that'll bring prices down.

At least they restricted the first homebuyer grant to new properties, so there's that.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by XorNot on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:09AM (#14002904)
The last one - super for houses - will obviously and explicitly destroy the lower and middle classes. There's a lot of people who will not see this as a bad idea - and then a lot more who'll be forced to dip into it anyway to have a hope of even owning a house, or any property large enough to start a family in.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by daemin on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:11AM (#14003306)
Basically people will have to drain their super to afford to buy a house, then when retired they will have to sell (or reverse-mortgage) their house to afford to live.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by spangry on Friday March 31, 2017 @10:43AM (#14004276)
Yeah, if the government adopted a 'super for deposits' policy it would be unconscionable, not to mention idiotic. The failure of the first home-owner grant scheme is ample evidence that a 'super deposits' scheme is not in the public interest. It's not even in the interests of first home buyers: I suspect it would simply bait marginal FHBs into catching falling knives.

Even with the FHOG scheme, I'm fairly sure the government was advised at the time that it was a stupid idea, but they went ahead with it anyway. The reasons why this 'super for deposits' idea has recently been floated are:

a) Someone at Coalition HQ finally figured out how to read demographic statistics (god help us) and realised that Gen Y (18-34) are now the largest voting block in the country (for our American friends: Australia has compulsory voting). Incidentally, I think this is the reason behind the 'surprisingly' close election last time around (Bowen's negative gearing policies addressed some of Gen Y's concerns around home ownership).

b) They also figured out that housing affordability is a serious issue for Gen Y. You might have noticed how everyone is all of a sudden so very concerned about housing affordability.

c) Both sides of politics are terrified of the bubble popping on their watch. They're acutely aware that voters confuse correlation and causation when it comes to economic policy (see: Howard & Costello's budget surpluses) and don't want to be forever branded as 'those guys that ruined the Australian economy'. So they'll do anything to kick the can down the road.

So (a) + (b) means they want to be seen to be doing something to improve housing affordability. However, this presents a problem: something becomes more affordable when that something becomes cheaper (i.e. prices go down). Unfortunately, doing anything that lowers house prices pisses off the second largest voting demographic in the country: the baby-boomers (53-71).

Combine (c) with the above and the solution becomes obvious: a policy that makes Gen Y feel as though they're in a better position to buy a house, that also pushes prices up (due to increased demand in a market with fixed short-run supply). This has the nice bonus effect of kicking the can just that little bit further down the road. And really, who cares about the distant future?

Although, I'd bet they aren't factoring in how ratings agencies might perceive such a policy. Australia is already on 'credit watch'. This kind of policy could very well be the final straw, resulting in a credit rating downgrade for the Commonwealth. And because the Commonwealth underwrites almost all retail bank deposits (explicitly), a Commonwealth downgrade is almost equivalent to the banks being downgraded.

Were this to happen, overseas lenders would increase their rates on wholesale funding that they lend to our banks (roughly 50% of the banks' cash). In turn, our banks will be forced to raise variable rates on retail housing loans, ironically triggering the bubble pop that the government was trying to avoid in the first place.

In short, it's just awful policy whichever way you look at it. However, I wouldn't want to bet against it happening anyway; this government seems to have an awfully large supply of stupid.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by caf on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:37AM (#14002527)
A recession will also throw a very large number of people out of work, and that is going to impact the less well off.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by flukus on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:50AM (#14003146)
Convince me it will? The less well off are just above the welfare line as it is. They can work 20 less hours a week and not see a big drop in income.

It's the boomers a recession will hurt. People on minimum wage actually do shit for a living.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by mb_72 on Friday March 31, 2017 @03:11AM (#14001744)
Overseas purchasers willing to pay far above market rates are partly responsible, especially in Sydney and Melbourne. The government department responsible for making sure foreign investment rules are followed are underfunded and quite ineffectual in enforcing said rules. More info here: http://firb.gov.au/real-estate/
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by bootload on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:07AM (#14002150)
"What is the reasoning behind this sort of opinion?"

The banking system is not using excess capital to create or generate business. Instead it is being poured into land speculation. Dumb money.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by bevax on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:01AM (#14001910)
In modern economy, when business is doing well, profits and top salaries grow, but that's it. Salaries never went proportional with productivity or profits and this is another sad example here: despite 25 years of ongoing growth, people are confronted with extreme household debts. Obviously political decision makers became too greedy and lobbyists too influential. You see it anywhere, not only in AUS.
Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by 2muchcoffeeman on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:24AM (#14002466)
None of the replies really explain why you'd want a recession.

If the value of my property plummeted too far and I was stuck with a massive mortgage, the first thing I would do is stop any discretionary spending until I could figure out what the future looked like.

Imagine that happened to a lot of the middle class.

I agree that prices are too high, but I can't see anything good coming from a crash.

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by ZoeZoeBee on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:47PM (#14009915)
The good would be a decrease in the number of persons forced to rent, rather than own.

Among households headed by Australians aged under 35 an extraordinary 63.4 per cent rent.[http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/no-...]

Re:Australia hasn't had a recession for over 25 years by tmnvix on Friday March 31, 2017 @07:48AM (#14002809)
> I agree that prices are too high, but I can't see anything good coming from a crash.

Depends on your perspective. For many (possibly most) people, lower house prices are good.