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Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:17PM (#13919596)
It's not as black and white as you make it.

If there is a warrant to search my property, I am obligated to assist if required. E.g. open the gun safe. (Hey, speaking of guns...You know what other antedquated amendment from the Founding Fathers would be really convenient to ignore...)

Now, AFAIK, no one has tested whether that still hold true of a combination safe, where the access substaintivly requires information from the accused.

And a combination safe is very similar to an encrypted drive.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by SCAQTony on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:34PM (#13919680)
"...LOCKED CONTAINERS - AN OVERVIEW: John P. Besselman Senior Legal Instructor

Law enforcement students often ask the question “can I search a locked container?” A better question to ask may be “when can I search a locked container?” The fact that a container is locked may not increase the possessor owner’s expectation of privacy but does limit the law enforcement officer’s access to the secured area. The ability to search a locked container will depend on the justification the law enforcement officer has for intruding into the area. The purpose of this article is to examine the different legal avenues a law enforcement officer can use to search locked containers. ..."

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/files/imported_files/tra...

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by nl on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @01:45AM (#13920122)
Personally, I find the Genius analysis of JayZ much more readable:

    Well, my glove compartment is locked
    So is the trunk in the back
    And I know my rights, so you gon' need a warrant for that

And the analysis: https://genius.com/17560
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by vilhelm_s on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @10:12AM (#13922311)
There is law review paper[0] about this song.

> And I know my rights, so you go’n need a warrant for that . . . If this Essay serves no other purpose, I hope it serves to debunk, for any readers who persist in believing it, the myth that locking your trunk will keep the cops from searching it. Based on the number of my students who arrived at law school believing that if you lock your trunk and glove compartment, the police will need a warrant to search them, I surmise that it’s even more widespread among the lay public. But it’s completely, 100% wrong.

Caleb Mason, "JAY-Z’S 99 PROBLEMS, VERSE 2: A CLOSE READING WITH FOURTH AMENDMENT GUIDANCE FOR COPS AND PERPS", http://web.archive.org/web/20130216120816/http://slu.edu/Doc...

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by naasking on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @12:10AM (#13919818)
> If there is a warrant to search my property, I am obligated to assist if required.

I'm not sure that's true, the police are authorized to break whatever they need to if you don't assist.

As for combo safes, this seems like a good overview: http://blogs.denverpost.com/crime/2012/01/05/why-criminals-s...

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @04:52AM (#13920674)
Yes, they can proceed without your assistance. Also, they can charge you with obstruction with justice.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by naasking on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @10:29AM (#13922460)
Are you sure about that? I don't think warrants require you to assist the police in their search, you simply can't obstruct them, so they can't charge you with anything.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @10:47AM (#13922612)
That you can be forced to produce a known piece of physical evidence is the premise of the very article you quoted, so yes, I am pretty sure.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by Chris2048 on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @09:14AM (#13921862)
What's the penalty that goes with such a charge?
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @01:02PM (#13924067)
IDK, but you can't keep breaking the law, and have penalties stop. So it won't be one-and-done.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by Chris2048 on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @12:21PM (#13932188)
Yeah, but in this case you have to weigh it against the penalty for being proven guilty.

Maybe indefinite detention, and a chance at public attention is better than life in prison as a convicted child molester.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by 0xcde4c3db on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:34PM (#13919678)
If I'm reading things correctly (IANAL, so it's very possible that I am not), it seems like there's not a lot of consensus. Some rulings say that the court can't compel you to disclose or use a password. Others say that per the Fifth Amendment it can't compel you to reveal "the contents of your mind", but can compel you to produce the protected items without disclosing the password, as those are covered by the Fourth Amendment rather than the Fifth. Yet others say that this is all bullshit and a password is merely a component of a mechanism, legally no more privileged than a physical key used to lock a file cabinet or storage room.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by BearGoesChirp on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @12:29PM (#13923767)
What happens when I ask for you to produce the password required by this super highly technical algorithm (insert lots of jargon to make the jury's eyes glaze over) called xor which will take the given file and turn it into another file that contains something illegal? Can you prove there isn't a password? Can you prove they didn't forget the password? Should forgetting a password for an encrypted file containing unknown material be cause for a life sentence?
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by pvaldes on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @09:52PM (#13927957)
I wonder how could one could be safe against the next hypothetical situation.

Lets suppose that there is someone motivated enough to distroy you. This people has months to mess with your system and substitute your usual decrypt command with a slightly modified version that 1) decrypts a file as usual when entered the right password and 2) runs a last extra line of code that inserts a child porn image or short video in the file. The timestamp of the decrypted file was changed to now. So you will not suspect that the file has been significatively modified also in the same operation. If the decrypt executable is closed and not easily available to examine... what could you do to prove your innocence?

Is possible for the jury (or the lawyer) to re-encrypt the file again exactly as in the first time to detect if the file was changed?

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by Chris2048 on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @09:04AM (#13921784)
> I am obligated to assist

What does that mean though? obligation is given meaning by the penalty for not complying.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @03:02AM (#13920353)
I don't think anyone would ever test this theory its too easy just to force the safe.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by trav4225 on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:22PM (#13919626)
Not quite, IMO -- combination safes can be feasibly opened without the combination.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Monday March 20, 2017 @11:31PM (#13919664)
Encrypted drives can be opened without the password. Difficulty varies of course, but it can be done (e.g. iPhone).
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by cesarb on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @08:37AM (#13921597)
> Encrypted drives can be opened without the password.

No, they can't. The way it's done is by trying many passwords until the right one is found. Once you have the right password, you can use it to decrypt the drive's contents, but then you are "opening it with the password".

(IIRC, there were some bad "hardware encryption" HDDs where the password wasn't actually used to encrypt the drive's contents, just verified against something in the drive's NVRAM; these can be bypassed. But that's not the case here.)

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by DanBC on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @08:42AM (#13921626)
> IIRC, there were some bad "hardware encryption" HDDs

About those: http://www.h-online.com/security/features/Enclosed-but-not-e...

Sadly the images appear to be not working. But they were very clear: what should have been a point cloud had clear lines.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by emidln on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @09:23AM (#13921919)
Yes they can. It's not my fault the government has access to shit hardware or that it'll take a really long time. Encryption is just a really big combination lock with a very long series of inputs.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @01:58PM (#13924563)
I put you in a room with an encrypted drive and no password, and you will eventually be able to open the drive.

That you acquire the password in the process of opening it is immaterial.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by Buge on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @12:53AM (#13919958)
That was only because they chose a weak password. With a 100+ bit password, it's impossible.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by CompuHacker on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @02:10AM (#13920210)
Improbable.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @03:05AM (#13920358)
When the average time to unlock is equal or greater to the probably heat death of the universe this distinction ceases to matter.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by cmdrfred on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @08:15AM (#13921474)
You could also get it right on the first guess, so its improbable not impossible.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by paulddraper on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @04:50AM (#13920671)
True, though 100 bit passwords are extremely uncommon. Even deadhorsebatterystaple claims to be less than 50.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by ouid on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @12:42AM (#13919917)
it's not similar at all. No one can prove that an encrypted drive is an encrypted drive and not a random number. whereas a safe is plainly a safe.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by harryh on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @08:38AM (#13921607)
While it's true in a mathematical sense that one may not be able to prove that a sequence of seemingly random bits is an encrypted files that is not true in a legal sense. The law isn't about proving things 100%. The law is about weighing the available evidence and proving things to various standards (preponderance of the evidence, beyond reasonable doubt, etc).

For example if if there are server logs showing I downloaded illegal files, and there are people who testify that I talked about downloading illegal files, and there is non pre-installed software on my computer that is used for encryption then probably that sequence of random bits is an encrypted file.

Maybe you can't prove it mathematically, but you can prove it legally.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by ouid on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @11:18AM (#13922928)
the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt".

A doubt which you cannot reason away is reasonable, by definition. Therefore it is below the threshold of legal proof.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by harryh on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @11:21AM (#13922961)
That's not what the legal term "beyond reasonable doubt" means. Beyond reasonable doubt means that a reasonable person would have no doubt that the party in question was guilty.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by repples on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @04:23AM (#13920586)
An encrypted drive will typically contain metadata identifying it as such, so no.
Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by mickronome on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @06:07AM (#13920919)
There is something, I believe called shadow volumes, which are completely metadata less encrypted containers living in a sea of random numbers. While you could claim that the existence of a program able to acess such a volume would be equivalent to metadata, no actual metadata needs to exist, and the random sea could contain one or ten volumes, which without a password you could never know, only guess or assume.

It is could even be possible, even likely, to create encryption schemes where several different encrypted volumes could share the exact same data blocks using something similar to homomorphic encryption. Which raises and obvious question: If the unlocked drive did not contain the data sought, can we hold someone in contempt after they did what we asked from them simply because we didn't find what we were looking for? Because we truly can't know if there is several encrypted volume in the same space without assumptions about information entropy and inaccessible configuration data.

Thankfully homomorphic encryption is not really practically viable today, so that particularly nasty can of worms is not imminent to solve, but we might be well served to let out decisions be informed by it, as it breaks most assumptions of what can be known, and what can't.

Re:Man jailed indefinitely for refusing to decrypt hard driv... by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 21, 2017 @03:03AM (#13920354)
Can you explain wherein this obligation is spelled out?