News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by nkkollaw on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:22AM (#13858532)
With all the ad blocking technologies that are coming up, I wonder if Google is devising something to counteract these efforts.

For instance, since browser-based ad blockers work from what I know by blocking known domain names, couldn't Google create random subdomains and serve the code from a different subdomain every day or even every few hours, as well as change the way their JavaScript and HTML looks?

Even something very expensive to run would be justified with all the money that advertising brings in.

If Google can create software that can tell what's in a picture, or if a person in a picture is happy or not, why can't they find a way to fool ad blockers..?

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by JoshMnem on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:14PM (#13859108)
Google makes efforts to prevent ad-blocking:

- Google Chrome for mobile doesn't allow add-ons so you can't install ad-blockers. (You can install browser extensions with Firefox for Android.)

- Google Chrome uses a dark pattern where the address bar tends to send users to the Google search results page instead of to their final destination (compare the behavior with Firefox's). That means that even if you have an ad-blocker, many users are likely to click on Google ads on the way to the destination site, even if they are blocked on the destination site.

- Android doesn't provide fine-grained permissions control or root access, so users can't block ads.

- Some of their content is designed to coerce users to buy restricted Android-based content-consumption devices. For example, you can't buy movies on YouTube and watch them HD in Google Chrome (at least on my computer). You have to buy another computer that doesn't have root access (an Android device) in order to consume the videos in HD. Once you're on the restricted device, it's harder to block ads.

- Google introduces projects like AMP that try to convince webmasters to restrict their monetization options and make it easier to appify the WWW. AMP even serves your content from Google's servers. The more control of the content they have from server-to-eyeball, the more options they have for stopping ad-blockers (and the worse it is for open technology).

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:26PM (#13860060)
> - Android doesn't provide fine-grained permissions control or root access, so users can't block ads.

One caveat here - Google devices are probably some of the most allowing of root access and full device ownership - easily unlocked bootloaders basically allow it to be a one button process.

Some manufacturers make you put your device on a shitlist with them before they'll give you a key to unlock the bootloader and root it - others, like Apple, won't allow you to at all.

Once you are rooted, you do have full ability to block everything and get fine-grained permission control via XPrivacy for example. Android devices are actually some of the best here mostly due to strong community support. You can't even get this control if you want it on many mobile devices these days.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by foodstances on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:57PM (#13860471)
And yet Apple introduced a first-class ad blocking mechanism into iOS that even works in 3rd party apps (using SFSafariViewController). There are dozens of ad blocking apps available on the App Store, which are much more accessible to the average user than having to root your device and install apps that have full root privileges.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:59PM (#13860490)
Yeah, that's definitely a step in the right direction, I certainly wouldn't say that Google does nothing to protect their interests in advertising - especially given their recent actions on the Chrome store with AdNauseum.

However, what I'm trying to get at is that, for example on iOS you still can't block in-app non-Safari ads at all. On Android you can do that if you want to, and a lot more, you can also block specific connections, block device-specific identifiers, APN lists, accelerometers, wake state, etc - it's a better compromise for someone concerned about privacy than other platforms even with this considered right now.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by toyonut on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:42PM (#13860960)
I would guess that is because Apple doesn't rely on advertising revenue. If they block some ads they just hurt revenue for their competitors.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by JoshMnem on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:42PM (#13860244)
I've never seen a way to root my phones without some risk of turning them into bricks. How would I quickly and safely get root access to a Galaxy Note III without risking the destruction of the device?
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by cyphar on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:53PM (#13860410)
Samsung is an example of a manufacturer that doesn't make it easy. Oppo, One Plus and Google (LG) all have very easy to unlock bootloaders that have "official" instructions from the manufacturer (and it's two commands away).

Can you still brick it? Yes. Is it likely if you type the two commands as you're told to on the website? No.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by JoshMnem on Monday March 13, 2017 @04:32PM (#13862062)
Thanks, I will look into one of those phones when I replace the Galaxy Note.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:55PM (#13860434)
The Note 3 is not a Google-made device, it's made by Samsung. Google's own Nexus and Pixel devices allow it in a single button press, I'm unsure of other manufacturers except OnePlus which does the same as Google. As I said in my post, some devices are a lot better than others when it comes to this.

Also, bricking doesn't just happen, if you understand what you're doing you'll be fine. That "some risk" isn't random, it's in the case that you do something incredibly stupid. Get a custom recovery on there as soon as possible and you can pretty much recover anything.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by amadorbatista on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:26PM (#13863095)
This is simply not true. I've spent 3 years flashing and messing with my phone in many ways.I've hard bricked it only once. When it was updating my phone froze. I didn't do anything stupid. It simply froze and messed with all partitions. It's hard to fuck your phone but it's a possibility.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @09:48PM (#13864319)
Sorry, but "froze and messed with all partitions" makes it sound more like you fucked up and flashed the wrong rom or something - flashing an update should never mess with all partitions - only /system and /data really.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by JoshMnem on Monday March 13, 2017 @04:32PM (#13862058)
Thanks for the info. I will check out those devices when I replace this one.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by snaky on Tuesday March 14, 2017 @07:14AM (#13866517)
> Google devices are probably some of the most allowing of root access and full device ownership

Did you hear about SafetyNet? https://koz.io/inside-safetynet/

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Tuesday March 14, 2017 @08:19AM (#13866861)
Someone else already commented on it, see that thread. It's trivially bypassed using current tools.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by kuschku on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:46PM (#13860312)
Not anymore.

On Android devices with unlocked bootloaders, a great amount of apps won't work.

Android Pay, Snapchat, Pokémon Go, etc.

Google has tried to fight rooting as much as possible.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:50PM (#13860360)
Use magisk or suhide and they'll work just fine. When you have access to the bootloader, there's nothing they can do to stop you - any attempt will ultimately be futile.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by kuschku on Monday March 13, 2017 @09:49PM (#13864322)
Actually, they now check a fuse on the device to verify if you unlocked the bootloader – if you have, on some devices, safetynet will fail.

So, yes, they can do something: blow fuses in the fucking system.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @10:23PM (#13864451)
From what I've seen, there are no actual cases of this in practice at least not on Google devices - Google devices don't even have such a fuse. Maybe some Samsung stuff - but that's an easy fix, don't buy from Samsung. Also, it does not fail SafetyNet even on those Samsung devices, just some Samsung-specific stuff.

From what I've seen the only mention of such fuses on Google devices is one that enables secure boot from factory and forces you to run the unlock command as I mentioned to reflash your bootloader - nothing to do with safetynet or anything similar.

Let me know if I'm missing a device which does actually do this. Yes, it's theoretically possible, but requires sufficient crypto hardware and protection to make it significant and it'd be a significant shift in direction for Google to go this route currently in my opinion.

Of course a full safetynet emulation that would spoof the check as a different device would also be an option... but it'd be a pretty big undertaking, but one which I'm sure would happen if this ever became a remotely significant threat.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by CannisterFlux on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:29PM (#13859303)
Here's another one I spotted recently:

- Android apps like YouTube and Google News use a built-in browser frame to show navigated-to web pages, rather than opening them in an external browser. The built-in frame uses Chrome tech, without add-ons. They used to allow you to open links by default in an external browser, but not any more.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by arthurfm on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:45PM (#13859524)
> The built-in frame uses Chrome tech, without add-ons

To block ads in Chrome Custom Tabs [1][2] you can either use Chromer [3] to change the custom tab provider to Brave [4] or use the article mode in Chromer.

[1] https://developer.chrome.com/multidevice/android/customtabs

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5ahlfq/dev_psa_chr...

[3] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=arun.com.chrom...

[4] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.brave.brow...

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by retSava on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:22PM (#13860766)
Just a happy user and not affiliated, but Brave was a hallelujah-moment for me. Never got Firefox to be especially fluid, not even close to Chrome. But Brave, IIUC, takes Chromium and adds some adblocking. It's not perfect, and some ads makes its way in, but it removes quite a lot while still being very snappy. To the best of my knowledge and experience, I can really recommend it.

Now I just hope that Brave doesn't turn out to be too evil :S.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by ehsankia on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:54PM (#13859645)
That's for faster loading, and can be disabled.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by mintplant on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:08PM (#13860593)
How?
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by ggoss on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:52PM (#13859613)
Ad-Away (installable via F-Droid if you are rooted) allows you to block ads at the hosts-file level, which will work in Chrome and in other apps that display ads.

Before anyone chews me out, as this effectively renders many free apps equivalent to their premium (ad-free) counterparts, I usually pay for said premium versions to compensate their developers.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by problems on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:18PM (#13859955)
The catch here is that it isn't as good - using uBlock in FF for Android for example will properly block all ad frames.

Using adaway or a pi-hole for that matter will not - they will only cause ad loading to fail (in some cases) - which sometimes results in frames showing errors on the page instead of a clean rendering of nothing with ad divs removed.

Personally I wind up using several methods - AdAway to kill most app ads, uBlock for web and Xposed to kill YouTube ads since the hosts-based methods seem to work rather poorly for them as their subdomains change all the time.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by majewsky on Monday March 13, 2017 @05:54PM (#13862814)
DNS-level blocking is, IMO, only a second line of defense. Nice to have for all those devices and applications where you cannot have a proper ad/tracking/malware blocker.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by literallycancer on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:08PM (#13860598)
>Xposed to kill YouTube ads since the hosts-based methods seem to work rather poorly for them as their subdomains change all the time.

That's weird, I didn't get any Youtube ads in quite a long time, and only use AdAway.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dredmorbius on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:50PM (#13863278)
Belt ans suspenders.

Defense in depth.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by ehsankia on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:52PM (#13859610)
> You have to buy another computer that doesn't have root access.

It's called HDCP, and I believe it's a combination of your GPU, monitor and cable between it supporting it. Netflix and most other online streaming services do this too. It has nothing to do with root access.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by legohead on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:31AM (#13858660)
Ad blockers do a lot more than just block domains. They look for and remove divs/DOM elements that contain known ad naming schemes and remove them from the page.

And if a site decides to start combating the ad blockers, the adblock list providers will update their rules specifically for the site in question. Adblock users get upset whenever they see ads, and report them pretty quickly.

The business I work for tried blocking adblockers and after a bit of back and forth they trumped us by blocking all AJAX requests on our site. We gave in after that.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Drumlin on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:13PM (#13859101)
To me, that would be a sign that you are winning the battle. If enough websites fight ad blockers, especially big sites, and the people behind those ad blockers make clumsy mistakes, then users will reach a point where they uninstall the blocker.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by stagbeetle on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:35PM (#13859387)
> people behind those ad blockers make clumsy mistakes

What "mistake?" That the developers couldn't foresee and block the exact elements against ad-blockers before they became real?

Reading the parent comment, it seems users are not opposed to reporting specific instances for the greater good. This is obviously more energy consuming than uninstalling, so where do you get the idea people will all of a sudden stop using an adblock because it failed to get passed one or two sites?

We're already seeing anti-ad-blocker-blockers being developed to remedy this problem. And if they don't come fast enough, users can just turn off their adblock for one page and be done with it.

Direct advertising is a dying legacy tactic. The most successful ads these days are the ones you can't tell are ads. They're also the stronger poison of the two.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Drumlin on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:32PM (#13860135)
It sounds like the people behind the ad blocker broke Ajax for that website while trying to block the ads - that's the mistake I am referring to.

You mention that native ads are gradually replacing direct ads as if it's a good thing. The good guys in the publishing industry go out of their way to prevents ads affecting content, they don't allow their writers/presenters etc to touch advertising and everything is clearly separate.

In the long term, ad blockers will just push out those people who are driven by ethics and you'll be left with the sleazy publications that are driven by PR. This is coming from someone who has dealt with PR agencies and constantly turned down proposals.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by stagbeetle on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:50PM (#13861044)
> It sounds like the people behind the ad blocker broke Ajax for that website while trying to block the ads - that's the mistake I am referring to.:

> The business I work for tried blocking adblockers and after a bit of back and forth they trumped us by blocking all AJAX requests on our site. We gave in after that.

I took this to mean that adblockers had to evolve and block AJAX on the website to make it accessible. Not, that they were hasty and disabled all functionality.

> You mention that native ads are gradually replacing direct ads as if it's a good thing.

On the contrary: "The most successful ads these days are the ones you can't tell are ads. They're also the stronger poison of the two."

> The good guys in the publishing industry go out of their way to prevents ads affecting content, they don't allow their writers/presenters etc to touch advertising and everything is clearly separate.

I didn't know this. However, I think it's a losing game. Consumers don't seem to care too much about the "good guys," unless a moral campaign is spear-headed (a la Tesla by The Oatmeal), only not seeing ads at all.

It's ironic really. We block ads so we're not influenced by them, but then we lower our guards and become susceptible to the indirect kind.

It's the natural order anyway. There will be those in the coming generations that will be like just like us. Except where we fought against direct ads, they will fight against the indirect. There've always been those unorganized who value critical analysis in all contexts, but their findings and ways never reach the public and make any impact.

Or maybe we've just made ourselves out to be sheep. As long as the coyotes aren't around, out of sight out of mind.

> In the long term, ad blockers will just push out those people who are driven by ethics and you'll be left with the sleazy publications that are driven by PR. This is coming from someone who has dealt with PR agencies and constantly turned down proposals.

As is with all things. You do not survive by being ethical, but by being the most adaptable, and sociopathy happens to be a great adaptation for sales.

I'm more interested in what happens next after the sleaze epoch. Will ads continue to become more and more manipulative then, finally after reaching too far, begin to wither and fade into the anals of history (albeit likely not as known as it should be, because of "out of sight out of mind."). Or will someone finally shake up this industry?

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by df5t0rw on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:24PM (#13860025)
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by pavel_lishin on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:29PM (#13859305)
Or they'll stop visiting the site.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by illumin8 on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:48PM (#13860339)
+1 - I stopped visiting Forbes because they decided to block ad-blockers. Fuck them; they won't get my eyeballs.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by slobotron on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:13PM (#13860666)
sounds like a win-win
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Drumlin on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:19PM (#13859969)
Does it matter if they stop visiting the site? Considering that they are using resources without giving something back in return? I guess it could be argued that they might be promoting the site to other users.

Other than that, they are essentially freeloaders and if a website has too many freeloaders it has to either get rid of them or convert them to something else. Or, I guess, the website could shut down completely.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by literallycancer on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:17PM (#13860701)
>Considering that they are using resources without giving something back in return?

Funny. Ads are consuming CPU time and electricity that I pay for in addition to my attention and time, and compromise my decision making. To me, any of those are infinitely more valuable than resources the website expends on serving ads or trying to.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by LordKano on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:44PM (#13860982)
Does it matter if they stop visiting the site? Considering that they are using resources without giving something back in return?

Buzz. I block ads but I also post links to articles on social media that are then followed by people who do not block ads.

I have a couple of areas of focus where I am exceptionally knowledgeable and people who have anything more than a passing interest in those subjects check out links I post.

Or, I guess, the website could shut down completely.

The tragedy of the commons.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by pc86 on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:36PM (#13860172)
If you're going to pirate a movie, you're probably not buying that movie. This is why on the whole piracy doesn't actually affect bottom line that much. Sure some folks would have rented it from their cable provider for $6 or whatever, but on the whole if you're going through the trouble of finding a good torrent and downloading it, you're not in the market to spend money on it.

Just the same, if you have an adblocker installed it's unlikely you're the type of person who is going to be clicking on ads anyway. And PPC ads are much, much more prevalent than impression-based ads. So if someone is blocking your ads, you're not losing anything. You get paid when someone clicks an ad, and if they're going to the trouble of blocking all ads, they're not clicking anything anyway.

You create a system where they won't or can't visit your site, and your traffic decreases, which will have an effect on your ad rates.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Drumlin on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:08PM (#13860596)
Impression ads are important for certain industries and bigger publications. I will agree that PPC ads are common in other areas and ad blocker users wouldn't click them. For impression advertising the ad blocker will result in lost income. PPC ads are the option of last resort for an established publisher because they are almost like gambling.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by pavel_lishin on Monday March 13, 2017 @04:50PM (#13862222)
> Does it matter if they stop visiting the site?

You can have all the ads you want, but if people aren't visiting your site - and sharing links to it, talking about what they read there, recommending it to others - they're not going to get you much revenue.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dredmorbius on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:54PM (#13863304)
For informational sites, I'll block sites that violate my preferred conditions, and load them up in third-party tools, e.g., Archive.is, on the rare occasion I find an interest in their content.

Almost universally, it's not worth it.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by majewsky on Monday March 13, 2017 @05:57PM (#13862837)
Rather unlikely. A blocker that fails to block one in a 100 ads is still 100x better than no blocker.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by ikeboy on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:43AM (#13858779)
Start loading essential content via AJAX?
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by legohead on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:08PM (#13859036)
When over 30% of your userbase is adblocking, it's not worth it. Your users will complain to you, not the adblockers. They don't even understand what's going on. Asking your users to whitelist the site doesn't work, either.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by majewsky on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:03PM (#13862881)
Pro-tip: Lazy-load the imprint link and support form so that these adblocking bastards cannot annoy you. /s
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dserodio on Tuesday March 14, 2017 @04:35PM (#13871242)
I got bitten by this on https://about.gitlab.com/contact/

I thought "hey, the Newsletter and Security Notices icons aren't clickable", opened a ticket, and found that the input and submit elements that should be under those icons were being blocked by disconnect.me :)

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by khedoros1 on Monday March 13, 2017 @08:13PM (#13863806)
It seems like a lot of the "Show HN" shares do that kind of thing...from domains that my work blocks. If it sounds really cool I'll load it up on my phone. Otherwise, that's a great way to make me decide "not worth my time" and move on to the comment thread.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Spooky23 on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:07PM (#13859827)
How about eschewing shitty ad networks and actually delivering relevant ads?
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by detaro on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:07PM (#13862913)
It's not like people writing ad filtering lists care if ads are relevant or not.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by fwn on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:05PM (#13860571)
We would not have this debates if this were as easy to deliver as it is demanded.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by rhizome on Monday March 13, 2017 @08:34PM (#13863921)
eschewing shitty ad networks

Who does that leave?

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by nkkollaw on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:45PM (#13863232)
Yes, that's why I also mentioned changing the HTML. For instance, change the ID of the div that contains the ad. It could even be random and change every time.

I don't have experience fighting ad blockers, though (I actually enjoy my ad blocker).

If Google did it, I doubt ad blockers would be able to block all ajax request on Google, or everyone would simply uninstall the extension.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by benologist on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:00PM (#13858950)
I think Google can save ads about as effectively as AOL can save dialup. Probably their plan is to just milk advertising until the last Windows 95 computer dies too.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by sfifs on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:47PM (#13860315)
Unfortunately, ads pay for a lot of web content just like they pay for most TV content.

The 5% (of which pretty much all of HN is a part of) can probably afford to pay for the cost of creating that content. The 95%, consisting of not just hourly wagers but also salaried folks generally can't afford to. The trade off is ad supported content.

So it's very unlikely to die off.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by benologist on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:06PM (#13861208)
Something like 2/3 of millennials are blocking ads which means Google has already encountered just about everyone willing to consume their advertising. Ad-supported websites would be unprecedented if anyone really cared about them not having to find a new way to make money. Nothing truck drivers want is going to make driving trucks a career forever either.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by jcfrei on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:52AM (#13858860)
The most promising front against ad blockers is forcing users to access your content with an application you control. That's why more and more websites want you to install their apps (Google search is installed by default on lots of android devices). It's very unfortunate that the incentives of users and content creators / advertisers aren't aligned very well and we will probably end up with most content creators dumbing down their web experiences in favor of better mobile applications.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by hedora on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:16PM (#13859126)
I think pi-hole will at least partially block such things -- it intercepts at the network level. I guess you could have the app break itself if the ads won't load, but you can (mostly) do that in a browser.

I guess, for network level ad blockers, I'm not seeing obvious advantages to a program written as an app vs a program written to run in a browser.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by jcfrei on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:32PM (#13859355)
As others have mentioned, you could just serve ads and content from domains which you wouldn't want to block, like www.google.com. And if an app receives its content encrypted (eg. SSL) you can't do a lot of filtering at the network level apart from domain names.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by hedora on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:49PM (#13859568)
True. I want to be able to add my own root ssl cert to my phone for this exact reason. Then it will think that my MITM adblock proxy is the real deal. This should work great for web browsers. It does get a bit nastier for apps.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by literallycancer on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:55PM (#13860435)
Yeah, you can always make it a pain to block ads.. but then who will use it?
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Sunset on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:07PM (#13861217)
We'll just move to neural networks to detect and remove ads.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by khedoros1 on Monday March 13, 2017 @08:11PM (#13863794)
That's an immediate way to lose my eyes. I hate using my phone when I don't have to, and I hate installing site-specific apps even more. I'm already using a computer with a nice screen, mouse, and keyboard. Why would I want to use something with a tiny screen and touch input instead?
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by fwn on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:25AM (#13858561)
Since all the popular filter lists are public, you could even scan them on the fly to evaluate your likelihood of being blocked.

But in the end you probably won't win against someone who really hates ads. - and that's probably better for users as well as advertisers.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Bedon292 on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:28AM (#13858604)
That's another good point. The people who are actively blocking ads are probably not the ones going to click them, even if they are not blocked. So not worth the money to invest in unblocking the ads going to people who aren't going to click them.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by SamBam on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:31AM (#13858661)
People greatly overestimate their ability to completely ignore ads, and to make purchasing decisions free from influence.

Sure, I believe that I am pretty much completely unaffected ads, but then so does almost everybody else.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Bedon292 on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:37AM (#13858715)
True. I am not meaning to say I am perfect (or that anyone can be), the hunch is just the expected click through rate of someone such as myself is likely much lower than someone who doesn't even know what an ad blocker is.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by bitJericho on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:48AM (#13858823)
You're more likely to look at an ad if you have an ad blocker. That makes you a prime target.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by stagbeetle on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:43PM (#13859490)
How do you suppose that is?

Is it because you believe people use ad-blockers because they're impulsive and can't hold their gaze?

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by devonkim on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:07PM (#13859836)
I think it's based upon the idea that people with ad blockers see less ads and so are still sensitive to ad impressions. In contrast, advertisements in really crowded situations (most people that walk about in urban areas, for example) require more effort to stand out as advertising saturation point hits.

I mostly combat any ad influence on me by making a point to _not_ buy anything that is advertised. Works out pretty well for helping me keep my sanity and conscience a little.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by bitJericho on Tuesday March 14, 2017 @07:23PM (#13872476)
That's it exactly. On top of that, you're shocked an ad got through!
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by stagbeetle on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:41PM (#13859471)
Be careful with "I believe that I am pretty much completely unaffected ads, but then so does almost everybody else."

This is in the same vein of inductive reasoning as "just snap out of your [insert mental illness/addiction/etc.]."

"People," in this context, isn't defined either. If however we were to say that by "people" you mean millennials, then you would be wrong.

But if you meant "the population at large" you would be correct.

Although, the second statement is tangential to the article at hand.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by SamBam on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:27PM (#13860814)
...? I think you're misreading my comment. I was suggesting that most people may think they are unaffected by ads, but probably are overestimating their immunity.

My second statement was highlighting how ones own opinion of oneself is not objective.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by stagbeetle on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:47PM (#13861642)
> My second statement was highlighting how ones own opinion of oneself is not objective.

And I retorted that ones own view of oneself can not be extrapolated onto the population at large if it is not objective.

But I should have been clear, when I mean "second statement" I mean so inside my own post. Ex:

1st Statement: "People," in this context, isn't defined either. If however we were to say that by "people" you mean millennials, then you would be wrong."

2nd Statement: "But if you meant "the population at large" you would be correct."

Which was in defense of the tech-literate and the young, but after researching some more my statements were based on old information.

The only people that come to mind who are easily susceptible to ads are the old and tech-illiterate, i.e those who don't have much experience with ads. Though this is just conjecture.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by majewsky on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:17PM (#13863010)
The emphasis makes it pretty clear that the statement you're quoting was an ironic one.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by stagbeetle on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:36PM (#13863175)
What's your interpretation of it, because I still don't see it.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by SamBam on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @01:45PM (#13878138)
"Sure I believe" was quite clearly not meant to be taken literally, as evidenced by the very next half of the sentence.

It's like saying "sure, I think think that I'm smarter than everybody else, but then so does everybody else."

My point was that people should not take their own assessment of themselves as strong objective evidence about themselves.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Bedon292 on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:26AM (#13858579)
You would just block *.addomain.com at that point. Which is already what is being done on many of the blockers. There will always be domains to block, even if they add new domains, the blockers will probably be able to block them just as fast.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by SamBam on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:29AM (#13858630)
How about if they load them through *.google.com?

Sure, you could whitelist www.google.com, mail.google.com, etc, but couldn't they keep ahead of you if they were ok with using their main domain? They could even start using www.google.com/ad-id

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by j_s on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:39AM (#13858733)
Yes, domain fronting through Google App Engine is already helping Signal bypass censorship: https://whispersystems.org/blog/doodles-stickers-censorship/

Currently domain-based filtering is probably too small a proportion of traffic to even care about, but as ease-of-use comes to the masses there may come a point where the pro-ad side will implement this.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Xylakant on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:39PM (#13859429)
As far a I understand domain fronting works by sending a different host in the SNI header than later in the actual http request, thus hiding the actual requested host from an adversary watching the connection from the outside.

This would require cooperation from the sending http stack, in this case the browser. I doubt that this is a viable option in this case.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by Xylakant on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:44AM (#13858791)
You really wouldn't want them on google.com/something since restricting cookies to sub-uris is a painful mess. Subdomains is slightly easier, but also easier to block.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by jcfrei on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:46PM (#13860301)
There has been a - now defunct - working group which tried to address the issue of setting cookies on sub URIs: https://www.w3.org/TR/csp-cookies/ Particularly interesting is the proposal by someone from Akamai: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2013Se... to include a path scope for cookies. I don't know if there are any more recent developments on cookies and their scope policies.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by M_Grey on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:39AM (#13858731)
Would Google really want to do that? It might be the impetus some people need to say "fuck it" to Google.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by scottmf on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:19PM (#13859965)
Then you whitelist individual pages and assets.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by SamBam on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:30PM (#13860845)
...and never see new content?

What if the New York Times decided to host all ads themselves? nytimes.com/ad-42.jpg couldn't be distinguished from nytimes.com/todays-front-page-image.jpg

Obviously it's more likely for ad ad-provider like Google to do this, but even then, if there's new content from Google (say a blog post) I expect to be able to see it.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by majewsky on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:12PM (#13862959)
I'm pretty sure that /ad-.jpg or something like that is already a blocking pattern. But you're correct: I'm seeing ads on some smaller sites that host the ad banners on their own servers. And you know what? I'm okay with this. I explicitly use uMatrix instead of uBlock since blocking trackers and malware is more important to me than blocking ads. (Getting rid of the more annoying ads is a bonus, though, and I might change my mind if first-party ads become annoying, too.)
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by scottmf on Thursday March 16, 2017 @08:41AM (#13884510)
This is if Google hosted ads at google.com/*

You could whitelist the search results page and nothing else.

Viewing a blog post is less important IMO.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by nkkollaw on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:47PM (#13863240)
www.google.com/dslkj/

www.google.com/dog-595984hdfh/

www.google.com/cat21/

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dbg31415 on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:36AM (#13858703)
Not that enough people use them at the moment, but loading from random sources would mess up Content Security Policies.

* Security/Guidelines/Web Security - MozillaWiki || https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Guidelines/Web_Security#Co...

Mozilla makes a good tool to let you scan and report on this sort of thing for any site.

* Observatory by Mozilla :: Scan Results for news.ycombinator.com || https://observatory.mozilla.org/analyze.html?host=news.ycomb...

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by glasslobster on Monday March 13, 2017 @09:24PM (#13864171)
The web advertising firm I work for has random looking domains for that purpose. The current domain generation algorithm seems to be using one to two domains a month. Although I've don't have access to any of the frontend code, I can only assume the DOM elements on the page are also obscured/randomized to an extent.

It is also my understanding that some of our boxes are here solely to proxy requests (either assets or websockets, which are increasingly popular in the field) to 3rd parties, to make sure it bypasses client side countermeasures.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by agumonkey on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:05PM (#13859016)
Decreasing ads will hurt sites that aren't providing enough value I guess. Maybe others that could but were fragile. Cynically a natural selection of some sort.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by m-p-3 on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:27PM (#13860069)
Some devices like the Chromecast and some Chromebook do not use your network DNS settings by default and rely on 8.8.8.8 / 8.8.4.4 for DNS queries.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dredmorbius on Monday March 13, 2017 @07:02PM (#13863367)
Firewall rewrite rules, direct to the DNS server of your choice.

IP (and BGP) are ultimately concensus realities.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by 24gttghh on Monday March 13, 2017 @01:41PM (#13860233)
Seems like one could block google's DNS servers -or perhaps even all DNS requests not destined for your pi-hole server in this example- on the router side and the Chromecast will fallback to what DHCP is providing.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by JustSomeNobody on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:03PM (#13860531)
> With all the ad blocking technologies that are coming up, I wonder if Google is devising something to counteract these efforts.

AMP

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by 7ewis on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:05PM (#13860570)
I believe Pi Hole have tried to block YouTube Ads but Google randomise the domains they serve those ads from, and also from what I have read, they also serve some fundamental features via those domains too. So if you kill the ads, you kill YouTube.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by ashark on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:45PM (#13861628)
Could youtube-dl the video then redirect the browser to a locally-served (locally from the pi-hole device, that is) page embedding the video, provided you've got the disk space to cache it and don't mind waiting a bit for the video to download (admittedly a lot of caveats here, but could work for many people). That'd actually be a better experience for most sites youtube-dl supports, I'd think, not just Youtube.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dghughes on Monday March 13, 2017 @04:26PM (#13862012)
I used a PiHole for a while and when using it YouTube had no ads at all zero ads but I wasn't sure if it was the Samsung TV YouTube app or Google.

Before that I would be bombarded by ads for every video and then in the middle of any video that ran more than 30 minutes.

I don't mind a few ads I get the concept but 95% of the ads were just two companies Wix and Grammarly over and over.

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by majewsky on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:14PM (#13862977)
Youtube ads can be blocked when you whitelist domains. I never see Youtube ads in my uMatrix-equipped browsers with a whitelist of:

  youtube.com apis.google.com script allow
  youtube.com googlevideo.com * allow
  youtube.com gstatic.com * allow
  youtube.com s.ytimg.com script allow
  youtube.com ytimg.com * allow
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by ggcdn on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:30AM (#13858647)
Could the website server make the requests to the ad networks, then serve the responses as if it were native content?

Current browser-based blocking tech would be rendered useless, right?

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by taejo on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:43AM (#13858776)
No, adblockers also use things like div ids, and potentially even heuristics like image shape.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by tajen on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:38PM (#13859415)
Safari itself is an ad-blocker, with its "reader mode". I could hardly imagine opening a newspaper page without it. Actually, my iPad 2 isn't powerful enough anymore to open a newspaper page, except if I use the reader mode.
Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by dredmorbius on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:55PM (#13863320)
Firefox as well. I use Pocket as a perferred reader generally, though its failure to provide a means of navigating directly to sites, or of showing a navbar, is annoying.

(Pocket ... has multiple annoyances. It's better than the alternatives, so far as I've tried, but that is one hellaciously low-set bar.)

Re:Pi-hole – A black hole for Internet advertisements by arjie on Monday March 13, 2017 @06:51PM (#13863280)
First party advertising. And native advertising.