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Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Animats on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:48AM (#13818231)
It can be worse. Something similar is happening to the "binary option" industry in Tel Aviv, Israel. A "binary option" is a bet on whether some financial indicator will go up or down. While there are such things as real binary options on real exchanges, the ones sold from phone banks in Tel Aviv are bets against the house. The house sets the odds and usually wins, and even when they lose, most binary option shops don't pay up. 80% of investors lose everything. In Israel, it's illegal to scam Israelis this way, but completely legal to scam the rest of the world.

The scale of this industry is substantial. It's doing at least $1.2 billion a year in income, and that's the part that pays taxes in Israel. This has been going on for almost a decade, and the scam was growing rapidly.

Then, in 2016, the jaws began to close. The US CFTC won a big case against the biggest binary option firm in Israel, Banc de Binary. They had to pay back everybody who lost money and pay huge damages. (Banc de Binary once offered $10,000 to anyone who would remove that info from their Wikipedia entry. That attempt backfired, badly.) Then there was a 15-part expose in the Times of Israel, titled "The Wolves of Tel Aviv".[1] Now, finally, there are more investigations and a bill to make it illegal to run this scam out of Israel. Banc De Binary ceased operation a few weeks ago. (Or at least they disappeared, removing their sign from the Banc De Binary Tower.) At least four other binary option "brokers" have gone out of business in recent weeks.

As a result, there are lots of layoffs. Scamming people from a phone bank was a good-paying job. The companies liked to hire recent immigrants to Israel who could speak the languages of their target countries fluently. English and Arabic were the most popular languages. A lobbyist for the binary option industry, testifying before a committee of the Knesset, claimed that there are 20,000 people employed in binary options in Israel, and 60,000 people indirectly. "You see the building boom right now in Tel Aviv? Well, you can just say goodbye to that because most skyscrapers in Tel Aviv will be empty. There will be no one to fill them up." There's even a claim from the binary option industry that shutting down this scam will increase terrorism, because it will take away the income of thousands of Arabs.

So 20,000 scammers are becoming unemployed, in a city of only 400,000 people. A former employee of a binary option company faces a far worse black mark than being from Uber. The binary option salespeople are full time con artists. Nobody legit in finance is going to hire them. Getting any legit job will be tough.

(World's smallest violin plays.)

[1] http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-wolves-of-tel-aviv-israels-...

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by PeterisP on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @06:26AM (#13819551)
If this results in common knowledge that parents will tell to their college-age kids "don't go working for scammers, because when they get exposed this will be a black mark on your CV for years" - well, then that's a good thing for society in general, as it will make recruiting for "technically legal, not yet explicitly prohibited" scams harder.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by feijfe33 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:47AM (#13820546)
My first job was for Arthur Andersen.

Tell me about it! ;-)

(Actually, it was still the best workplace I've ever seen, a few dbag partners screwed the entire company built on a man's principles and vision.)

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by CalChris on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:11PM (#13822197)
That is what I read, that AA was a good company which got nuked on account of a few bad apples. This was Enron/AA, circa 2001, and the net job loss of around 85,000 meant that when it happened again on a grander scale, Too Big To Fail was the result. Politicians didn't have the stomach for that many white collar job losses, especially in that economy. They were probably right. We were on the brink of another Great Depression and that wasn't the time to be moralistic about corruption. It really wasn't.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by devopsproject on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:45AM (#13820984)
How many is a few?
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Flammy on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:58AM (#13818501)
I've heard pieces of this story, so thank you for the history and summary.

I suspect what you say is true, this is a 'black mark'. Working for Uber? Maybe if you are in upper management, would it be a similar "black mark" but even then, are you going to blame every C_O for their scandals? Probably not all. As for the 98% of employees? I doubt working for Uber will seriously impact their next job (and much less all following jobs).

Just think, today we don't hold it against middle management or individual contributors who happened to be employed at Enron at the wrong time...

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:38AM (#13820928)
I worked with a dude that got laid off in the whole Enron fallout. Everything was normal Friday when they left for the weekend. Monday morning, they found a box of personal items where their desks used to be.

He had some trouble finding a job afterwards, and wound up working at a call center (where I met him). Seems folks didn't want to take the chance that he just might have been in on it, nor did they want to un-train a toxic culture out of him. Really was a shame as the dude was a joy to work with.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by onion2k on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @02:53AM (#13818707)
Just think, today we don't hold it against middle management or individual contributors who happened to be employed at Enron at the wrong time...

Do you have enough knowledge of recruitment in the energy sector to make that remark?

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by twunde on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:11AM (#13819698)
Actually after Enron was exposed, most former employees head a very difficult time getting hired. It was a major black mark, made worse by the fact that many employees had significant savings in Enron stock.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by whatok on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:36AM (#13820098)
This really depended on what their role was. Many star traders or analysts were able to get re-hired almost immediately or start their own firms without a problem. Here's an example:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qwDFL2xIX4kC&pg=PA88&lpg=P...

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by pinewurst on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @11:37AM (#13821358)
That's a pretty good book, btw...
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by n-exploit on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:28AM (#13819761)
Why would you lump these two together? I'm genuinely curious.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Applejinx on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:36AM (#13819798)
Is it not obvious? They're practically identical in every respect, right down to corporate culture, grandiosity and being propped up on a titanic and imaginary valuation which is all that empowers them to carry out their activities.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by HelloNurse on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:07PM (#13822166)
I don't see much similarity except ridiculous valuation and the consequent financial threat level between a company that used to be normal, developed an infection of criminal behaviour on the part of a small group and collapsed because of epic law-preaking, and a company that began as a hugely funded startup, behaves badly from day 1, appears to be openly run by assholes for assholes, and hasn't broken the law on a catastrophic scale yet.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by anshumanf on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @02:31PM (#13822956)
> hasn't broken the law on a catastrophic scale yet

Debatable?

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by HelloNurse on Thursday March 09, 2017 @04:56AM (#13828266)
Enron and Parmalat vaporized billions of stock value; that's what I call catastrophic scale. Note that on paper Uber is even bigger.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by eriktrautman on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:32AM (#13820886)
Having worked in the energy industry, the traders previously from Enron were some of the most sought after in the world since they basically invented many of the markets from the ground up and could get shit done. Not sure how the accountants fared, though...
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by golergka on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @02:45AM (#13818673)
> So 20,000 scammers are becoming unemployed, in a city of only 400,000 people.

It's pretty weird to take into account only population of Tel Aviv and not the whole metropolitan area; and anyway, there are a lot of people working in Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, Givataym, Petakh Tikva and other cities around the center who actually commute from the north of the country or other regions.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by zv on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @05:31AM (#13819329)
One little secret of retail/sales industry is that everyone knows that best salespeople are pathological liars. So I really doubt that they will be out of job, being con artist is just a plus.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by K0SM0S on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:29AM (#13820862)
Oh yeah, just like it's an open secret that the best programmers are socially awkward, introverted nerds.... and all DJs are stupid, like athletes. ;-)

Or maybe we just confuse cliches with averages and averages with individuals.

It turns out that in my anecdotal experience, every sales book I read from 'the greatest' advocated an honest, sustainable approach to customer relationship, because trust and word of mouth get you much farther than any immediate 'win' on a deal. The matter of the fact is that you don't want to ever be the sole 'winner' of a deal, you want all parties to win: otherwise no one will want to deal with you anymore at some point. Business isn't about winning, not even about sole profit, it's about sustainable profit, and honest cooperation gets you there.

Which fits my personal work experience as well --worked at Esprit de Corp (retail clothes) when I was younger and was among the top sellers, always telling the truth to customers; e.g. "these pants don't fit you, sorry I don't have anything else, please do check back on us often". Note: this was the brand's policy as well, that satisfaction was the real product we were selling, even if it did not always translate into an immediate sale. In the long run, I'm positive the trust we built was a key factor to making this brand top 3 worldwide sustainably (as far as the frontend is concerned, quality/price and having great stores in every major commercial location being the other two).

In this particular brand and in many of our competition (Zara etc.), not only would "pathological lying" be frowned upon as you'd expect from most (normal) human beings, it would be just about the worst sales tactics, ever, if you wanted customers to be satisfied, thus come back for more (which is the bulk of your profit in volume retail).

I wasn't there to see how things went at Uber, but from what I heard/read, it's obvious their culture was everything but sustainable.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by beaconstudios on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @06:36AM (#13819588)
I don't think that's a very well kept secret.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by justin66 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:47AM (#13821003)
> One little secret of retail/sales industry is that everyone knows that best salespeople are pathological liars.

Is that really true? There's a pretty meaningful distinction between someone who lies all the time as part of their profession and someone who lies out of a compulsion. It seems like being unable to stop lying would be a handicap.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by WhiteSource1 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @06:04AM (#13819460)
But the difference is most binary options is theft. Uber is a legitimate service with bad business practices.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by lmm on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:28AM (#13819763)
Legitimate in what sense? Uber has been extensively breaking the law for pretty much its entire existence, no?
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by mnarayan01 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:07AM (#13819949)
In that they actually provide the service which they advertise and their customers desire.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by roel_v on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:25AM (#13820399)
So does the pusher on the corner around my block, what's your point?
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by uxp100 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:49AM (#13820564)
I think that binary options were a literal scam. The pusher sells real drugs.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by greenhatman on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:55PM (#13822591)
The point is that they provide customers with a service that they really want. Transport after Uber is a lot better than before. Companies like Uber NEED to exist. Luckily there is competition now.

Uber's apparent bad work culture is an entirely separate point. And so are the laws they skirt. I think most of those laws should be scrapped anyway.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by nilved on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:50AM (#13820571)
That the law doesn't matter when it comes to business?
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @11:52AM (#13821480)
Not at a profit, they don't.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by metaphorm on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:04PM (#13821566)
you're conflating fraud and evasion of regulations. these are not the same things. Uber evades regulations (and has a shitty office culture) but they don't defraud their customers.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by piva00 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @06:27AM (#13819555)
I see ads ALL THE TIME for these binary options and it always looks like a betting site. Thanks for clarifying what the hell were those ads about.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Animats on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @02:53PM (#13823148)
The binary option industry went in for heavy "search engine optimization". There were hundreds of phony sites about binary options, with real finance stories scraped from elsewhere to make the content look fresh. There were enough of these sites to push things like SEC warnings and negative news stories off the front page of Google results.

But Wikipedia stayed near the top of search results. Something had to be done about Wikipedia, which was tracking the lawsuits, news stories, and regulatory actions. There was a huge effort by Banc De Binary to get the "bad stuff" out of their Wikipedia article. This resulted in one of the worst paid editing disputes in Wikipedia history.[1] We got to see their "hustle-oriented culture" in action. Eventually, all Banc De Binary editors were blocked.

The "hustle" was that the call center people claimed to be "brokers", acting on behalf of the customer and trading options on some exchange. In reality, there was no exchange and no third party on the other side of the transaction. The "broker" is a shill for the house. This is called a "bucket shop", illegal in the US and seldom seen since the 1920s.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_no...

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by macawfish on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:45AM (#13820152)
just wait until it is revealed that much of capitalism is a scam altogether. people will really be out of work then!
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by simonh on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:33AM (#13820449)
First you suck them in for 8 to 10 generations, then wham! You hit them with the sting and take them for all they've got. Unless they, like, vote in a government that stops you doing that, or something.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @11:45AM (#13821417)
So you're saying soon I'll be able to afford an apartment in Tel-Aviv?