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Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by owenwil on Sunday March 05, 2017 @12:55PM (#13797282)
>So, like creating a full blown new programming language (Swift)?

Byproduct of Apple's work on mobile.

> Or a full new filesystem (AFS)?

Byproduct of Apple's work on mobile.

> Siri on the desktop?

Byproduct of mobile again! (By the way, ask Siri on Mac to set an alarm or interact with homekit!)

But, I take your point. I tried to mostly detail Apple's lack of attention for developers, but perhaps missed the emphasis on that there in the post. Microsoft is really trying with developers and it's readily apparent.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by DannyBee on Sunday March 05, 2017 @12:57PM (#13797297)
"Byproduct of mobile." If you need evidence:

Swift appeared in IOS first and still is not great on the desktop at all.

APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS, and still in feature preview and pretty unusable in 10.12. It's "expected" it will be released for desktop in 2017

Siri on the desktop is mostly useless, as said here.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by owenwil on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:01PM (#13797324)
Right - that's simply a result of what I say in the post about Apple focusing on iOS first, then letting the byproduct of that filter down into OS X. That's a end-result of the Mac team being merged into the iOS team. Maybe it's not bad, but it just means slower overall progress.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by comex on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:31PM (#13799222)
For APFS, I don't buy that it has anything to do with prioritizing one operating system or the other. APFS wasn't ready when Sierra was released, which is why it was included as a beta with limited functionality. It seems to be ready now, so it will be included in the next version of iOS (10.3), which is still in beta, and presumably the next major release of macOS.

The only difference is that it's being released in a minor update to iOS but will probably wait for a major update to macOS. But that makes sense, because macOS allows the user to customize partitions and filesystems, and allows running other operating systems - including Boot Camp, which Apple itself must provide drivers for, and Linux, which is waiting on Apple releasing documentation for their filesystem, as they have promised to do. By contrast, iOS has the same partition layout on every single device and no cross-OS compatibility concerns. Thus APFS on macOS requires more work and has greater risk of failure. For both reasons, regardless of Apple's priorities, it would be logical to start with iOS. Even if Apple did add stable APFS support to a minor macOS update, they probably want to auto-convert users to APFS eventually, but doing so in a minor update would definitely piss off technical users; they could make it opt-in to start with, but it's easier to just wait.

The next version of macOS is only a few months away; really not a big deal.

(I agree that Apple seems to be prioritizing iOS in some areas; I just don't think APFS is one of them.)

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by coldtea on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:02PM (#13797335)
>Swift appeared in IOS first

Which makes perfect sense. We talk to our phones all the time anyway, and hands-free is crucial. For desktop, not so much.

>APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS, and still in feature preview and pretty unusable in 10.12. It's "expected" it will be released for desktop in 2017

Which makes perfect sense. A constrained environment without an exposed filesystem like iOS is easier to convert to a new FS. A full blown desktop OS not so much. That's why it needs much more testing and development to deliver the latter.

But they ARE doing this testing and development.

(Btw, APFS is not "the default in iOS" yet. It will be when 10.3 is released -- it is still in beta atm).

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by addicted on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:10PM (#13797406)
I agree it makes sense.

But it also indicates that Apple isn't really designing for the Mac as the author points out.

I mean, Siri is the biggest feature Apple is touting for Sierra (http://www.apple.com/macos/sierra/). And as you point out, it's something that doesn't even make all that much sense on the Mac.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by Turing_Machine on Sunday March 05, 2017 @02:33PM (#13798016)
I may be in the minority here, but I find Siri just about as annoying as the old Clippit thingie in Microsoft Office. It's the first thing I turn off.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by coldtea on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:13PM (#13797433)
>But it also indicates that Apple isn't really designing for the Mac as the author points out.

Maybe they don't but I don't see them doing anything major on the iOS side either. Both platforms are quite mature by now anyway.

(And Apple was never about revolutionary new designs and jumps. Back in the day of the iPod and early MBPs etc, we cheered and waited anxiously for at best incremental changes -- now it has USB, now it has a different touch wheel, now it has a color screen, now it has wifi, now it does video, etc, year over year).

>And as you point out, it's something that doesn't even make all that much sense on the Mac.

Yes, but people (and pundits) have been asking for it all the same to appear on the Mac anyway.

And "talking to your computer" has been a thing from the times of 50's sci-fi stories even.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by jsgo on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:39PM (#13797638)
I'm sure they'll figure it out at some point, but the mystique of Apple only releasing something when it was "ready" has been over for a while now. So not only did it come later, it was less evolved than the Windows implementation a year prior. Cortana felt useful from day one for various tasks. Siri? Only in a subset cases.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by yborg on Sunday March 05, 2017 @02:08PM (#13797853)
Siri is a humiliating embarrassment. There is no other way to describe it. The only time I ever use it is for comedic relief, or to demonstrate the obvious superiority of either Google's, Microsoft's, or Amazon's implementations. To Apple, it's just another in a long series of marketing-driven features rolled out into some perceived white space in the competitive landscape and then abandoned. It's ridiculous that something so potentially game-changing to enable non-technical users, which is theoretically the market Apple thinks it owns, has gotten such short shrift at Apple, even in the face of growing (and superior) competition.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by voltagex_ on Sunday March 05, 2017 @06:38PM (#13799592)
> The only time I ever use it is for comedic relief, or to demonstrate the obvious superiority of either Google's, Microsoft's, or Amazon's implementations.

Curious here - can you give some examples? Siri seems to work better (on friends' devices) than "OK Google" on my Moto X.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by toxik on Sunday March 05, 2017 @02:21PM (#13797933)
I don't know how well Cortana works, but Siri works very well for English. It is passable in Swedish for every-day language (like "påminn mig att köpa mjölk ägg och smör" will be fine) whereas anything remotely technical or heaven forbid English will be a jumbled mess. Google is understandably leaps and bounds ahead of Apple, and it's not surprising that there is essentially nothing in the field of machine learning coming out of Apple, whereas Google is basically _the_ ML company on Earth right now.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by mdekkers on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:36PM (#13797612)
Apple was never about revolutionary new designs and jumps.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by graphememes on Sunday March 05, 2017 @11:30PM (#13800714)
Yeah our desktops are just the thing we use to make those, no big deal really
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by madeofpalk on Sunday March 05, 2017 @04:17PM (#13798726)
> APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS

Well, it will be when that beta iOS is released.

Besides, it makes sense for any sort of file system to be released first in such a limited manner.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by DannyBee on Friday March 10, 2017 @11:37PM (#13844252)
Uh You realize they make more phones than desktops, right? By like a factor of 10 at least :)

So the limited manner would be to release it to desktop?

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by antfarm on Monday March 06, 2017 @03:55AM (#13801509)
In what sense is Swift not great on the desktop at all?
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by marricks on Sunday March 05, 2017 @02:31PM (#13798006)
I think a pretty good summary is about 3 years ago Microsoft realized it had a couple of failed stratagies.

1) Catering to casual. Xbox one launch is probably the best example. They wanted to become the home media center so the entire launch and discussion was centered around sports streaming and social media. + Kinect.

2) Desperately trying to get a foothold in mobile.

I think they realized people weren't going for either. Sony focusing on games and hardware killed it initially in sales, and still kind of does. Apple and Android had two corners of the market and MS could make a space for a third.

They pivoted, targeted "professionals" and that's what you see in their approach for Xbox & PC. I think it's overall good, but saying Apple abandoned developer is sort of desparate fear mongering.

Apple's strategy has always been pretty consistent, focus a lot of resources on making a good ecosystem. More recently it seems that's changed to "focus a lot of resources on making the best systems, and allow for a great ecosystem" with sponsoring third party monitors, and apple's home automation front.

I think it's still a pretty good strategy, but with windows catching up with some "pro" features like their own premium desktops and laptops and adding in old features like "workspaces" people jump to say Apple "abandoned" them when they're still kind of sticking to the same successful strategy.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by nikdaheratik on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:46PM (#13799302)
If you'll look even further back in the Mac OS history, you'll see that they didn't really care about developers back then. Their entire focus was media and publishing with education on the side. I think it hurt them in the long run as they've always lagged behind with software and gaming and they only managed to make some headway in the PC market when they devoted resources towards making life easier for developers.

I've always liked Mac OS better than Windows and even though Windows 10 is finally a usable system for development, I still don't trust Microsoft. I've been burned too many times with a promising system that then gets hobbled by ORMs adding their own Adware and other BS, by Microsoft caving into the bean counters and hobbling their systems in order to fight Chinese piracy, and by some C-suite managers bright idea that they should to waste resources on some "Synergy" play instead of just making the OS, and other products, better.

At the core, you still have an ecosystem where the people making the computers can't make enough money on their own because Microsoft and the chip makers are squeezing them. Which makes for a sorry experience in the long run, even if Apple has its own problems.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by eksemplar on Sunday March 05, 2017 @04:52PM (#13798958)
I've been an enterprise developer on windows since XP (now on 10) and I don't think they've come very far in terms of what's going on with your dev pc. I still wouldn't want to use my dev machine for anything but development because of how much shit the .Net dev environment does to your system.

Don't get me wrong, Azure is blazing amazing, and so is .NET in general, but when your enterprise IDE still hasn't found a way to function properly when the "documents" folder is on a network share, then you've got ways to go.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by hvidgaard on Monday March 06, 2017 @02:51AM (#13801306)
This is the entire reason I do the majority of development in a VM. There needs to be installed so much software, that is deeply integrated into Windows, that I don't want any of it on my daily workhorse.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by Philipp__ on Sunday March 05, 2017 @03:29PM (#13798400)
By that logic, isn't iOS byproduct of OS X? I think people are overblowing the situation. I still rember Snow Leopard being best desktop OS I have ever used, but Sierra is still far far in front of Windows, and I realized that just when I sat in front of the computer with Windows 10 on it.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by zamalek on Monday March 06, 2017 @02:30AM (#13801228)
> Microsoft is really trying with developers and it's readily apparent.

Which has been their approach for a very long time - let's not forget that Ballmer speech. From what I have heard, Apple puts minimal effort into XCode; the iPhone lead dev here was throwing around all forms of cuss words trying to get CI set up.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by deminature on Monday March 06, 2017 @06:35AM (#13802029)
XCode is a sometimes excellent, sometimes shaky experience, still far ahead of Android Studio until the past 6 months or so. The API design of iOS is also still second to none, and part of the reason I continue to develop for Apple platforms. I use XCode Server for CI without issue, another team uses Jenkins happily. Apple's hardware can be fairly neglected, but the experience of being a developer in their ecosystem is still very pleasant overall.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by iaml on Sunday March 05, 2017 @11:16PM (#13800665)
WSL is also a byproduct of their failed attempt to run android apps on windows phone, and it's the most interesting thing they released recently at least for me.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by coldtea on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:00PM (#13797316)
"Byproduct of mobile" doesn't really say much -- if anything.

They support all three on Desktop systems, and they have features and APIs for both that only make sense on desktop systems too.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by jmcdiesel on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:08PM (#13797387)
It says a lot.

The desktop isnt a phone. Forcing phone features into a desktop and slowly turning the desktop into iOS is not a good thing.

We were just fine without an app store. Just fine. I cant think of any of the "use this mobile feature on your desktop" that provides any real value...

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by coldtea on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:11PM (#13797420)
>Forcing phone features into a desktop and slowly turning the desktop into iOS is not a good thing.

Siri, maybe, but there's nothing about an FS or a programming language like Swift that makes them a "phone feature". Same for memory compression (which only exists on the Mac IIRC) and continuity (which would be useful even if it only worked from Mac to Mac).

If anything Apple has adamantly refused to "force phone features into a desktop", and only ports stuff that makes sense -- that's sort of what Microsoft did, trying to merge e.g. tablet and desktop platforms in the same UI.

>We were just fine without an app store. Just fine.

Well, I'm much much better WITH an app store. Why wouldn't I want one? I might want some more features out of the Mac App Store (like the ability to demo an app) but I very much want to have it.

And in no way is an app store a "mobile feature". App stores, (and app repos) existed way before they appeared on mobile phones, for one.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by RileyKyeden on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:27PM (#13797535)
> Same for memory compression (which only exists on the Mac IIRC) and continuity (which would be useful even if it only worked from Mac to Mac).

Windows 10 has memory compression.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by felipelemos on Sunday March 05, 2017 @04:16PM (#13798710)
And Linux too since Dec 2012.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by majewsky on Monday March 06, 2017 @07:18AM (#13802193)
Huh? Is that enabled automatically, or do I need to flip a switch?
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by domenukk on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:46PM (#13799301)
And of course, Android (Cyanogenmod had it in 2010 or so)
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by coldtea on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:35PM (#13797598)
"On the Mac" as opposed to "also on iOS".
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by threeseed on Sunday March 05, 2017 @06:00PM (#13799388)
> We were just fine without an app store

You were just fine. Don't speak for everyone.

Finding applications on the internet is a dangerous endeavour if you are inexperienced. Many people get tricked by popups suggesting their computer is broken and they need to download a "cleaner app". Many people get tricked by the fake Download buttons. Many people just use whatever the first link on Google.

And then once they are tricked they then proliferate their passwords, email addresses, credit cards etc all over the internet.

App Stores IMHO are a must have for most people.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by michaelmrose on Sunday March 05, 2017 @01:35PM (#13797601)
If the mac allowed the "store" to have more than one source, allowed usage via cli and gui and didn't require a 30% cut most of your software would probably come from the store and it would be a good thing.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by joombaga on Sunday March 05, 2017 @02:44PM (#13798089)
They'd have to remove the account requirement too. Just `appstore install foo`.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by coldtea on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:42PM (#13799285)
Maybe the could just offer a way to download the apps via the internet, and then open some kind of image container and move a file to the Applications folder.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by michaelmrose on Monday March 06, 2017 @02:32PM (#13805349)
This is inherently inferior as you are requiring the user to make the distinction between safe and unsafe software each and every time they install software something users are notoriously bad at.

Additionally it makes it hard for 2 apps to specify libraries required meaning each must include whatever they require AND either updates are manual, read nonexistent, or each app includes its own nagging update mechanism.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by michaelmrose on Monday March 06, 2017 @02:29PM (#13805313)
An account could be required for installation of non free software while still allowing installation of free software without it.