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Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ComradeTaco on Monday February 06, 2017 @08:02PM (#13586004)
I disagree fundamentally with Ajit Pai's reasoning that minimal regulation will lead to innovation and lower consumer price.

There are some industries that are natural monopolies, like water and electricity, because it's incredibly expensive to build both last mile connections and core infrastructure. They're also natural monopolies because you don't really have great, cost competitive alternatives to water and electricity provided on a large scale.

When you consider hard wired internet, it bares of a lot of similarity to utilities, in the cost and difficulty of accumulating infrastructure and in the absence of effective alternatives.

For that very reason, internet should be classified, like other natural monopolies, as a utility.

Moreover, last mile lines should be rentable or available through competitive bidding. There's actually enough dark cable to make some regional ISPs viable if they could actually get access to consumer level last mile lines. But Comcast won't get off them unless they're kicked off them. And if you try to build lines then Comcast will half their rates in the areas that you offer service in!

Of course, Ajit Pai will have a lobbying job earning well north of 400K the moment the Trump administration runs out the door so it's really not his concern.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by dmritard96 on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:39PM (#13586516)
For the most part agreed. In general, if there is a 'natural monopoly' AND the private sector is failing to provide better service or better pricing or both as a result of competition, I don't understand why we wouldn't simply treat it as a utility or fully make it public.

One counter here is that the reason they have a monopoly is the last mile lines and easements, but arguably there is enough spectral bandwidth in the wireless realm that perhaps whats really missing is competition for home internet from wireless operators. I'm not sure where I stand here but I do think its interesting to consider whether it would be better to help bring competition somehow from that side into the home broadband realm or whether the landline route should be made more public. I'm sure there are some capacity limitations on the wireless side also that may make this a pipedream.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by raquo on Monday February 06, 2017 @10:06PM (#13586631)
Wireless internet is not a solution – it's very obviously inferior to wired if you don't need the mobility. More expensive, lower bandwidth, higher latency, lower reliability.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by DaiPlusPlus on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @05:24AM (#13588411)
"Fixed wireless" systems like microwave and other line-of-sight systems have negligible latency (and considerably less latency than DSL which never seems to go below 20ms for me) and you can theoretically get gigabit speeds, and because there's no last-mile infrastructure besides an antenna it's less expensive to set-up too. The only thing you mention that applies is limited bandwidth: such systems only work in low-population-density rural environments, it would not work in Manhattan.

There needs to be more consumer education to allow them to differentiate between high-performance things like fixed-wireless compared to running their home internet off their phone's LTE connection.

Funnily, my iPhone's LTE connection (according to SpeedTest) has very good latency and throughput: I get ~10ms to my nearest major city and ~30mbps downstream, sometimes my LTE upstream speed is faster than my home DOCSIS connection. Alas I can't use it as my home connection because I need a static IP address and more than a few gigabytes of data-transfer per month (more like a few terabytes...)

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by 69mlgsniperdad on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:26AM (#13589534)
I have a grandfathered 'unlimited' data plan with tmobile. I get 75mbit down and 40-70mbit up where I live and the places I spend 99% of my time. I often use a vpn(to hide user agent) and tether to get those speeds on my laptop when I'm not at home. Haven't had a problem with data caps yet, often use 50ish gigs of data, and have tethered over 20gb recently with no issue. Edit: Nexus 6p on LTE 700mhz
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by chrishacken on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:49AM (#13589677)
That only works because you're 1 person. If everyone in your town decided to do this your phone would be unusable.

We have ~50 users on our unlicensed fixed wireless service and we've been running into numerous signal issues. Wireless isn't the answer.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by 69mlgsniperdad on Wednesday February 15, 2017 @06:27PM (#13656495)
Was just sharing my experience in downtown Detroit.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by cft on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:35PM (#13591446)
Actually. I have a legacy unlimited plan with Verizon (costs $170/mo). When I need to upload or download something large fast, I tether my laptop, since I get 7-9Mbps upload via my phone, versus 768Kbps via my phone DSL. I actually thought of getting rid of my $100/mo slow DSL. I wonder if permanent LTE tethering will be viable in the future.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by anon2264 on Thursday February 16, 2017 @08:16PM (#13665136)
Why haven't you done it already?
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ComradeTaco on Monday February 06, 2017 @10:01PM (#13586606)
I believe what you're talking about is called a Wireless Internet Service Provider (WISP). Netlinx is one example of it (http://netlinx.net/)

I've read a bit about WISPs, because they seem like a happy solution to the whole monopoly problem but they haven't caught hold in the way that I've hoped. Latency seems to be a pretty significant issue. Consistency in signal strength is also a problem.

I also sort of think that this is kind of the way we get out of problems without ever getting at the root cause. We look to technology that may exist at a later point to fix problems caused by underlying political, organizational and infrastructure issues. Always looking for the next band aid for the bullet hole I suppose.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by trome on Monday February 06, 2017 @10:20PM (#13586706)
Latency is often better than Cable ISPs and DSL (even with VDSL2 or Fastpath) on a WISP, and can easily compete with Fiber in terms of latency (wireless has less latency than optical glass), but where it falls down is in suburbia, where there isn't enough customer density to justify small cells and pole attachment costs don't allow you to feasibly put up nodes to blanket the neighborhood.

Clearwire ran into many of these same issues, but they were able to operate at two orders of magnitude more power than most WISPs can (1 watt vs 150 watts) and had way more bandwidth around 2Ghz to work with, all of which was pristine.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by AnthonyMouse on Monday February 06, 2017 @11:58PM (#13587166)
The fundamental problem with wireless is that in an area with even moderate density, you end up needing a wireless antenna within a mile of the customer's location, which itself needs a wired connection. And once you get that close you might as well bring the wire the rest of the way and not consume billions of dollars of wireless spectrum.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by lewisl9029 on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:14AM (#13587234)
All valid critiques, which is why I'm eagerly anticipating the new ISP that would hopefully come out of SpaceX's Low-Earth Orbit Internet Satellites: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12982418
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:30AM (#13587535)
I don't think that actually replaces wired connections in urban or suburban areas, because it's susceptible to the same problem of needing shared wireless spectrum proportional to the number of regional users even though wireless spectrum is inherently limited by physical laws.

What that would solve is high speed low latency access for rural areas.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by fragmede on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:00AM (#13599222)
That's debatable; one of the biggest challenges facing a consumer ISP business is literally called the "last mile" problem because that last mile is surprisingly difficult! (Not that the "other" miles are easy, mind you.)
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by AnthonyMouse on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:21PM (#13620574)
It isn't literally the last mile, in practice it's really the last five or ten miles. And if you have to go 4.5 out of 5 miles, it isn't worth not going the whole way.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by upofadown on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @07:20AM (#13588855)
There is currently an idea floating around that you could put a wireless access point on every block and then provide gigabit wireless over millimetre wave spectrum. So a way of skipping the hard bit of fibre to the premises.

Now all we need to do is actually make it work...

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by chrishacken on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:55AM (#13589718)
Like he said, you still need to spend an insane amount of money to acquire spectrum. Furthermore, High freq spectrum doesn't go through trees or buildings so any obstruction then makes dozens of properties unserviceable. Unless you put AP's every 500m, it doesn't work out the way you'd think it would, and at that point, you might as well just run a physical drop cable to the premise for a few hundred dollars.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by upofadown on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:17PM (#13591328)
Not really up on it, but I am pretty sure the idea with mm wave stuff is to use the signal that reflects and refracts, not the direct path. The fact that it doesn't penetrate objects is a feature. It allows really intense frequency reuse in a relatively small area.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by chrishacken on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:31PM (#13591419)
I know, that's also what makes it so difficult to deploy. You need to have dozens of them within a very small area. That essentially defeats the purpose of going wireless at all, since you'll need some kind of backhaul to those devices. Going from curb to premise is cheap relative to bringing the fiber to the curb.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by hhw on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:17AM (#13587489)
Two points of contention I have with your point that wireless has less latency than optical glass:

1) You don't operate wireless in a vacuum. There's all kinds of potential obstructions to the signal, including any physical objects 2) Even if wireless as a medium itself has less latency, it requires far more relay points to travel comparable distances to fiber, which introduces far more latency than the medium itself

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by palunon on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:11AM (#13589822)
On 2, it is true, but often wireless operators have their relays connected to fiber. (Except for very remote area coverage, but that's another matter than replacing the cable company monopoly)
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by belorn on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @04:22AM (#13588195)
Maybe we should ask why so few cities provide free wifi in public spaces.

As an example we can see what happened when New Orleans did that after Hurricane Katrina. Not only did Bell South take back donated resources to the rescue efforts, but they and several large telephone companies stepped up an aggressive lobby actions against the city during a time where focus should have been to save human lives and restore the infrastructure.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by Yizahi on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @05:23AM (#13588401)
Wireless is so so much harder and more expensive. I live in an average size apartment built from reinforced concrete panels and it is hell to setup wifi. Basically 2.4 GHz signal halves after each wall. 5 GHz is worse. I have two APs for 3 room 60 sq.m. apart and there are still dead zones everywhere.

Same for GSM - if you are too high, too low, too far or in shadow from tower it just doesn't work properly. Holiday overload on the cell - goodbye internet.

Wireless is barely functioning as it is and more customers will just make it worse.

PS: also when something in the last mile is not working it is insane to debug it. Phone disconnects for some reason and that's it. Router is working but devices can't connect or auth. Some APs work and some aren't. My devices from same vendor and same model lineup can't even properly restart by themselves after power outage. I need to go and reboot them in order one by one each time. I hate wireless... :)

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by 0xcde4c3db on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:54AM (#13589712)
I think the fundamental problem is capacity. I haven't run a WISP, but my understanding is that a highly directional rooftop antenna solves most signal strength problems for individual subscribers. However, there's a practical requirement for the tower to have antennas with broader coverage (I think WISPs conventionally use sector antennas), because otherwise you'd just have too many antennas that need to continually be adjusted as subscribers come and go. Half-duplex medium and protocol overhead means that you're not going to get very many stations on a given combination of antenna and channel before performance starts taking a major hit. I've seen general guidelines that recommend no more than 20 stations per AP; I assume a WISP tower setup can optimize for more stations per channel, but I'd expect that to be on the order of a 2-5x multiplier, not 100x.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by dingo_bat on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @03:43AM (#13588031)
> Of course, Ajit Pai will have a lobbying job earning well north of 400K the moment the Trump administration runs out the door so it's really not his concern.

Hasn't Trump banned this?

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by cptskippy on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:59AM (#13590176)
Trump's executive order banned federal employees from becoming registered lobbyist for 5 years. Unlike the Obama order it doesn't prevent lobbyists from working in the government agencies they lobbied, and it doesn't prevent government employees from going back to work in the industry they regulated in an influential position.

It is speculated that much of the lobbying that occurs is by the influential people in an unregistered capacity and it's known as "shadow lobbying".

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by tomp on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @03:47AM (#13588055)
Can he even ban it at all? AFAIK he's banned (or was talking about banning) the other direction - lobbyists getting government jobs.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by dingo_bat on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @04:00AM (#13588110)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/28/execu...

"1. I will not, within 5 years after the termination of my employment as an appointee in any executive agency in which I am appointed to serve, engage in lobbying activities with respect to that agency."

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by mhuffman on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @04:36AM (#13588244)
> with respect to that agency

... and there is the "out". Just engage in lobbying activities with respect to another agency, where you now have a lot of contacts. Or consult with an agency that does engage in lobbying activities with respect to that agency.

You get the idea.

I am happy that the "Revolving Door", made famous by Larry Lessig (whose writing and classes, if you are lucky, can't be recommended enough) is getting more than lip service from some branch of government. However, this is just barely more than lip service.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by st3v3r on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:19PM (#13590854)
Do you honestly think that will be enforced?
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:57AM (#13587659)
> There are some industries that are natural monopolies, like water and electricity, because it's incredibly expensive to build both last mile connections and core infrastructure.

Is this not beginning to change though? Setting up a local solar farm for a neighborhood and selling on that electricity seems like a valid business model to me. Same with setting up automated water desalinization and treatment plants. But because of regulations, the cost to do either is extreme.

I think the very regulations that add so much cost may be the one's that have us thinking all about 'natural monopolies' today. The more people you can service, the easier it is is to spread the cost of regulation. But why do you need that cost in the first place?

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by riffraff on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @02:12AM (#13587714)
Electricity production has never been a monopoly, and local generation has been done for a long time.

Still, the distribution grid is a natural monopoly, if somehow it became obsolete because everyone was producing energy at home it would become useless but still have the same characteristics that made it a monopoly.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by lupin_sansei on Monday February 06, 2017 @08:17PM (#13586079)
This was the argument against privatizing the telcos in Europe in the 80s. But once they did competition and innovation thrived. Classifying something as a utility leads to stagnation.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by dleslie on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:39PM (#13586514)
They are privatized and regulated. Being a utility doesn't necessitate a government monopoly, and regulation needn't describe only a narrow range of allowed approaches.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by skywhopper on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:06PM (#13586338)
I assume they required sharing of the last mile telephone lines, like long-distance competition in the US in the 90s? Because that's regulation that serves competition. Whereas the lack of regulation led to the AT&T monopoly that had to be broken up twice.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by bonzini on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @02:19AM (#13587727)
Correct.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by nitrogen on Monday February 06, 2017 @08:27PM (#13586134)
Unfortunately in the US the telcos and cable providers are already privatized, and have only continued to merge and grow larger. So we need something different from the current situation, whatever that may be.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ChefDenominator on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:04PM (#13586325)
The US telcos embed themselves into the local governments, keeping competition out. It's governments, all the way down.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by fattire on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @03:09AM (#13587900)
That's an odd indictment of government. If government is taken over by private companies, that's government not working, and it's certainly not a democratic government to blame, it's an infiltrated, corrupt political system.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ChefDenominator on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:40AM (#13590003)
I may tweak your statement a little that the government is run largely by special interests, i.e. small minority wielding substantial influence (is a union a 'private company'?). Why must my city government make the decision on what company may drive a truck in a circuit to collect my refuse? Why was my local YMCA denied a permit to build an indoor pool while the city built a luxurious, beautiful, money-sucking 'Community Recreation Center' (that has an indoor pool)?

Given the broad prevalence of this type of activity, it seems to at least suggest some fundamental breakdown within the system of representative democracy or, as you suggest, it is an indictment of governments, in general.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ComradeTaco on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:38PM (#13586509)
That while Telco's do use regulatory capture well, you have to admit there's some sort of natural monopoly inherent to hard wired internet service.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:01AM (#13587182)
The known solution to this is local loop unbundling, but the ISPs lobbied their way out of that more than a decade ago.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ChefDenominator on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:44AM (#13590047)
This statement is usually made without any substantive evidence to support it, primarily because every monopoly, in practice, can only truly be a monopoly when the government mandates it. When firms are forced to compete on the open market, without the option of non-market strategies, someone will find a way to move in and compete.

This is actually self-evident in the fact that these companies are actively engaging in non-market strategies. There would be no need to practice such tactics if they could simply hold a 'natural monopoly'. Others certainly disagree, but for me, this argument is the one I find most compelling.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by st3v3r on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:37PM (#13591007)
And those companies had no choice but to go along with it?
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by tyfon on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @03:20AM (#13587943)
What happened in Norway at least was that when the state telephone company Televerket that is now Telenor was privatized, they required them to lease the land lines and mobile spectrum to others at cost.

This worked really well so now there is a health population of companies in both the telephone/mobile and isp sectors.

I can get at least 5 different wired isps and maybe 50+ mobile broadband providers in the outskirts of a town of 60k people.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by zo1 on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @04:46AM (#13588279)
I can attest that the same thing happened with the telephone company here in South Africa. A while after its monopoly was taken away and regulation required that public infrastructure be rented out to any ISP that wished to use it, things started thriving after a long period of stagnation.

In fact, ISPs thrived, and a lot of them are now installing and contracting the installation of their own Fibre to a lot of residences. Essentially, side-stepping the existing copper infrastructure that kept people tied to the telco monopoly.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ksrm on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @04:30AM (#13588219)
The same thing happened in the UK with BT. There is genuine competition and it works reasonably well.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @05:32AM (#13588437)
I very highly doubt that classifying something as a utility leads to stagnation: Furthermore, I would argue that with some utilities, it is a boon to us if we don't grow. We don't actually need electricity or water use to increase.

In addition, it is quite possible to have competition while still regulating something as a utility. Regulation is really more what the classifacation is about. You want clean water standards, companies that don't turn you off for being a few hours late, and so forth. This stuff is doubly important since in many areas, utilities are a natural monopoly. The classifacation can also ensure that the large companies venture out into small and rural cities and areas. Some folks in the US have only had home phone service less than 20 years despite such laws, after all, and I doubt they would without regulation.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ComradeTaco on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:21PM (#13586416)
All consumer level electricity supply is classified as a utility in the U.S.. Would you say that electricity transmission and generation have "stagnated"?
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by sacheendra on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @05:08AM (#13588362)
Have a look at the grid The Grid by Gretchen Bakke.

It describes how transmission has stagnated. Particularly the tactics used by large utilities and how they lead to a degraded and unreliable grid.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by chimeracoder on Monday February 06, 2017 @10:20PM (#13586704)
> All consumer level electricity supply is classified as a utility in the U.S.. Would you say that electricity transmission and generation have "stagnated"?

That's a pretty bad comparison, though, because the transmission of electricity is as commoditized as possible (given that the electricity gets somewhere, the only thing the consumer cares about is price - there's no such thing as "fast" electricity). So what does "stagnation" on energy transmission even mean? There's no innovation - at least, not that the end consumer would ever know or care about - which is the textbook characteristic of a fungible commodity.

The production is not fungible (see: clean energy production vs. dirty), but that's the part that's also somewhat competitive. For example, in New York City, Con Edison has a monopoly on the infrastructure[0], but you can purchase your electricity either though Con Edison or through an ESCO, which can include clean energy providers.

As a general trend, municipalities which decouple the generation from the transmission and allow competition between companies that generate electricity do tend to have more clean-energy options than those which monopolize both the transmission and the generation.

[0] A few parts are serviced by another provider instead of Con Edison, but basically any given household is serviced by only one power company

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by Retra on Monday February 06, 2017 @11:04PM (#13586915)
The innovation is to find cheaper and more efficient ways to generate and deliver electricity to consumers. Both decreasing costs to customers and environmental impact, as well as increasing profit margins for the company.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by chimeracoder on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:59PM (#13591178)
> The innovation is to find cheaper and more efficient ways to generate and deliver electricity to consumers.

You're repeating the definition of a commodity, which was exactly what I addressed in my first paragraph.

> Both decreasing costs to customers and environmental impact, as well as increasing profit margins for the company.

"Decreasing cost and increasing profit margins" again is part and parcel of commoditization. The environmental impact is what I addressed in the rest of my comment.

Again, the comparison is bad because the only part of the electric industry which is not fully commoditized and which has the potential for non-commodity innovation is the part that is already competitive and much less regulated.

Broadband Internet, on the other hand, is not at all commoditized. There are at least four different things that consumers can care about besides cost per unit, so comparing it to a commodity utility is a bad comparison.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by genericpseudo on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:48PM (#13591560)
That came with local loop unbundling, neutrality rules, and two competition authorities (local and pan-European) with real teeth.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by sametmax on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @04:49AM (#13588293)
In France we have great competition among the the Internet providers, way more than for energy or water. So it's probably not exactly the same.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by simonh on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:57AM (#13589741)
Same in the UK, we change providers every few years depending on what deals are available. BT generally owns the last mile but is required to share it with other providers, then there are regional cable and fiber networks. I do believe in the power of markets, but as Adam Smith pointed out they must be regulated in order to be free and fair.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by richieb on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:15AM (#13590333)
Who owns the wires?
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by simonh on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:19PM (#13590858)
British Telecom. Most of the infra was laid down when it was a government owned monopoly. When it was privatized and the ownership went into (mostly) private hands, it was required to lease out access to competing networks. I understand several other European countries have similar arrangements. In the UK we have the same for electricity and other utility provision as well. It's not ideal, but seems to work ok and has genuinely driven down prices for consumers a lot.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ScottBurson on Monday February 06, 2017 @08:08PM (#13586028)
Yes, I have been inclined toward this view as well. But I would be interested to hear counterarguments.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by pharrlax on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @09:52AM (#13589692)
>Of course, Ajit Pai will have a lobbying job earning well north of 400K the moment the Trump administration runs out the door

Hahahaha, 400k? The man is the Chairman of the FCC. Try well into seven figures