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Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by JumpCrisscross on Thursday January 19, 2017 @01:06AM (#13433461)
> One of the USDS project selection criteria is that we prioritize work that based on what will do the greatest good for the greatest number of people in the greatest need

The USDS is a taxpayer-funded public entity. The "greatest good..." is determined by the law, written by our duly elected representatives. You don't get to serve the public and selectively reject the law. If the Congress passes a law you disagree with, you must follow it or resign--those are the only options, per your civil service oath.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by learc83 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @01:21AM (#13433534)
> you must follow it or resign--those are the only options, per your civil service oath.

Those aren't your only options. Your other options are to stay in and leak information. Stay in and try to damage the project etc...

I don't know what I'd do if I were in the position to damage, delay, or stop something as blatantly unconstitutional as a Muslim registration database, but I hope that I'd be able to muster to the courage to do so.

The civil service oath requires you to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

I understand that constitutionality is determined by the Supreme Court, but if the government attempts to create a Muslim registration, they've crossed the line and it's time to act.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by stale2002 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @02:10AM (#13433759)
Then they should have acted 8 years ago, because the "Muslim registery" already exists under Obama
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by gsch on Thursday January 19, 2017 @02:57AM (#13433953)
The registry existed under Obama, but it was created in 2002 after 9/11, partially suspended in 2011, and fully suspended last month [0], though it looks like it remains to be seen whether the suspension will be undone.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Entry-Exit_R...

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by edraferi on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:05AM (#13435804)
Thanks for the link. Looks like that program was only indirectly about religion. It provided a list of countries whose citizens were subject to more intense scrutiny. Most of those countries were majority Muslim, thus most people affected by the program were Muslim. There were successful civil rights complaints about this.

Trump, of course, has suggested a much more aggressive and less subtle program that includes an explicit religious test.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by pc86 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @10:25AM (#13436449)
NSEERS is not even remotely a Muslim registry. It says if you're from one of five countries or are specifically selected, you have to pass additional scrutiny to enter the US and are subject to additional notification and reporting requirements.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by stale2002 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @12:48PM (#13437702)
Well it is effectively the same as what Trump wants to implement. So it is as much of a Muslim registery as his plan. (which, as you argue, is not at all)
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by pc86 on Friday January 20, 2017 @07:01AM (#13443182)
No it's not. Trump said he wanted to register people based on their religion. NSEERS says if you're from one of five countries or are individually selected, you have to have additional screening. Also NSEERS doesn't even exist anymore.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by tonetheman on Thursday January 19, 2017 @06:13AM (#13434863)
Started with Bush... they should acted before 8 years ago.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by myrion on Thursday January 19, 2017 @02:37AM (#13433866)
Surely you have evidence of this?
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by stale2002 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @02:41AM (#13433881)
Sure. The program has a name. It is called NSEERS.

The info about it is all available publicly.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by resfirestar on Thursday January 19, 2017 @03:19AM (#13434056)
The statements of candidate Trump suggested a system far broader in scope than NSEERS to cover US citizens. The Kobach plan to reinstate NSEERS (it was halted in 2011) would presumably involve more invasive point of entry procedures for more countries.

Whichever way it is, the real time to stop NSEERS was when it started in 2002. Since that didn't happen, it didn't stop until 2011. So yes, it is a good time to complain about religious profiling when a new administration is planning to institute it.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by hydrogen18 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @08:55AM (#13435735)
As opposed to what, conducting surveillance on basically every citizen in the nation? That was just dandy. But a Muslim registry, now you're going to get all uppity about that?
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by davidmr on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:11AM (#13435846)
I'm confused. How did the USDS conduct surveillance on basically every citizen in the nation, or are you painting every US gov't employee with a very, very broad brush?
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by hydrogen18 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:29AM (#13436003)
learc83 used the term "the government" in his post. I would not say that every US government employee is personally responsible for the current surveillance state. But when someone suggest "the government" is about to cross the line, it reeks of bullshit.

"The government" (our government in my case) has crossed the line so many times on so many different issues. The citizens never did anything. If the federal government built camps and starting rounding up Muslims or any group, we would do nothing tangible. There would be all sorts of racket made about it, but nothing would come of it. Any suggestion otherwise is just an attempt to bait some sort of discussion that Donald Trump is either the second coming of Adolf Hitler or the herald of the apocalypse. I don't like the man in any way. But where we all these people when Barack Obama decided he had the authority to execute US citizens?

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by artimaeis on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:42AM (#13436109)
> "The citizens never did anything"

Snowden pulled the veil on many issues similar to what you're referring to. I'm fairly certain he was a citizen at the time. I'd reference Chelsea Manning, because she acted as a citizen when betraying her oath to the military. I could see arguments against that, though.

The government came down hard on both these individuals. It's a damn shame. And please don't take this to be a pro-oppressive-government stance. I'm simply saying that citizens did do something. And every day there are citizens working in thousands of government jobs across the country trying to make the right decision. There's no reason to slight them.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by hydrogen18 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:58AM (#13436239)
You're confusing "the citizens" with two specific citizens. I've never called out Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden specifically. We did nothing in spite of the actions of those individuals. They laid everything bare out in the open for everyone to see. In the case of Chelsea Manning at great personal expense. The citizens did nothing in response other than make a racket.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by artimaeis on Thursday January 19, 2017 @11:02AM (#13436781)
I see what you're saying now and in that light I totally agree. We the people have been unable to hold our government accountable for things for a long time, and it's a total shame.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by scott_s on Thursday January 19, 2017 @10:02AM (#13436278)
I feel that is a rigid and too literal take on how government works.

At any given time, there are more laws to enforce and enact than people and other resources to enforce and enact them. Deciding what exactly to enforce or enact is - in other words, their priorities - is often left up to individual agencies. For example, the Obama administration prioritized immigration enforcement by targeting those found at the border, or those who committed crimes [1]. In another instance, marijuana use is illegal under federal law, but some local laws allow it, and the Obama administration explicitly deprioritized enforcement in such cases [2].

Finally, I think there are valid cases where individuals within government should exercise their own judgement and resist direct orders if they feel they are unjust. One such case is when Governor Schwarzenegger ordered the pay reduction (down to federal minimum wage) of 200,000 state employees until the state legislature agreed on a budget [3]. The person who was supposed to enact this order, state controller John Chiang, resisted.

"Under Schwarzenegger’s plan, the workers would receive their full salaries once a budget was approved. But California had enough cash in its accounts, and, in Chiang’s view, the Governor’s move could violate the Fair Labor Standards Act. Moreover, he thought, it was cruel. It was the height of the financial crisis, and mortgage defaults were up more than a hundred per cent over the previous year." [3]

[1] http://www.npr.org/2016/08/31/491965912/5-things-to-know-abo...

[2] http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/president-obama-marijuan...

[3] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/21/resisting-trump...

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by Jtsummers on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:11AM (#13435851)
> You don't get to serve the public and selectively reject the law.

You kind of do. If you're ordered to do something that seems in conflict with the law and/or Constitution, you have a responsibility to not leave, to oppose that unlawful or unconstitutional action. That may require you remaining in place. If you leave, all that's left behind are the sort of non-thinking automatons I was surrounded by at one job for the AF who "were just following orders". They will follow the unlawful and unconstitutional orders and our experiment fails.

Your obligation as a public servant in this country is not to the President or to the Congress, but to the People by way of the Constitution and those things which are permitted by it. Orders aren't obligations if they're orders to do things we shouldn't be doing.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by zeveb on Thursday January 19, 2017 @01:51PM (#13438392)
You neglect the possibility of a legal, constitutional order with which one disagrees (neither the law nor the Constitution forbids all bad things). For a member of the civil service, one's choice, then, is to obey or to resign.

For the military, of course, there is no choice: one obeys.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by landryraccoon on Saturday January 21, 2017 @05:49PM (#13452526)
I certainly hope you are wrong about the military. If the generals that lead the military attempt a coup to overthrow the democratically elected government of the US I would expect every loyal soldier to disobey those orders.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by X86BSD on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:50AM (#13436186)
"You don't get to serve the public and selectively reject the law."

1. Jury nullification.

2. Police discretionary powers.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by trentmb on Thursday January 19, 2017 @01:36AM (#13433615)
> you must follow it or resign--those are the only options, per your civil service oath.

What's the difference between bureaucratic incompetence and sabotage?

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by kristianc on Thursday January 19, 2017 @03:36AM (#13434119)
Building it in MongoDB would probably give plausible deniability.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by akmiller on Thursday January 19, 2017 @08:52AM (#13435716)
...or use ElasticSearch as your store of durable record
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by bpicolo on Thursday January 19, 2017 @09:08AM (#13435822)
Better yet memcached
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by mindcrime on Thursday January 19, 2017 @11:12AM (#13436863)
The "greatest good..." is determined by the law, written by our duly elected representatives. You don't get to serve the public and selectively reject the law.

Sure you do. Our "duly elected representatives" are bullshit and have no special standing at all. The State imposes itself on us whether we like it or not, and we are all, as individuals, certainly entitled to oppose its abuses in any way we can.

Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by foota on Thursday January 19, 2017 @01:20AM (#13433524)
Sure if the President ordered the USDS to do it, they would have to (I believe they are under the executive branch?) But I don't believe that direct of control is generally taken by the office.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by chris11 on Thursday January 19, 2017 @03:06AM (#13433991)
Trump will not be a normal President. I'm expecting he will either be really hands off or micromanage depending on the situation. So I could see Trump getting involved with the USDS if they made the news somehow.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by NicoJuicy on Thursday January 19, 2017 @03:51AM (#13434191)
Trump isn't smart enough to micromanage, he hires smart people though. Which is good enough to look smart in the eyes of the public
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by hueving on Thursday January 19, 2017 @04:26AM (#13434339)
It takes very little intelligence to micromanage. Doing it effectively is a different story, but anyone can bark orders to underlings easily.
Re:Staying with the US Digital Service by vkou on Thursday January 19, 2017 @01:06PM (#13437877)
"You don't get to serve the public and selectively reject the law."

Every presidential administration since time immemorial begs to differ.