Re:LSD, you are making medical claims and recommendations with zero stated medical background. Someone following your advice could become permanently psychologically disabled.

Do not follow this person's advice on this subject. Talk to your actual doctor or licensed psychologist.

the thing is, doctor will never ever recommend you this, even if it would instantly and permanently fix you. there is simply no proper long term research into this thanx to US gov war on drugs and doctors play it safe so nobody would sue them.

from personal experience - if all else is failing, do it with smaller doses first. it is a truly life-changing experience, even one time.

Be careful using psychedelics while depressed, it can get even worse and you can have a very bad trip. At least don't do that alone and have somebody sober to watch over you. Personally, I've found small doses of LSD having better, longer lasting improvement and causing less side effects than antidepressants.

> Personally, I've found small doses of LSD having better, longer lasting improvement and causing less side effects than antidepressants.

The first time you take an anti depressant your doctor will not recommend you a full dose. The first time you take a stimulant your doctor will not recommend you a full dose.

I know readers here sadly won't consult their doctor on LSD or marihuana. The first time you take LSD (or psilocybine mushroom, or marihuana), and the first time you take it within a long time, do not take a full dose.

Example: the first time I used psilocybine mushrooms I used 5 gram (out of a full dosage of 30 gram). I almost fell asleep due to it, in bath, and almost drowned, had it not been for the fact I put the tub only half full. I had no sitter either (that was my first stupidity - always get a sitter; a sober, mature person who watches over you and who preferably is an expert on the drug). (Legal disclaimer: I used this drug when it was still legal in my country. It no longer is. I don't recommend breaking the law.)

There are also much lighter drugs than either of these. Amanita muscaria (fly agaric), for example (the same still applies, small dosage first). However I don't recommend a random person to pluck this in the wild. You need to be trained in order to recognise them as there are deadly poisonous lookalikes luring.

I have extreme and opposite reactions to your two suggestions. Your point 1 is just great advice for all people. Your point 2 is a damaging recommendation for a large variety of reasons and I hope no one reading this takes it seriously.

Here's a bunch of free mindfulness meditations (guided) that don't come from the bay. They're basically re-recordings of Jon Kabat-Zinn's original tapes: https://health.ucsd.edu/SPECIALTIES/MINDFULNESS/PROGRAMS/MBS...

// Oh, and be very very careful with psychedelics of any kind ...

Having had a friend's girlfriend go into the hospital during a mindfulness meditation retreat last weekend, be careful. Meditation can be as psychologically powerful as a strong drug trip - done well it's immensely uplifting, but a bad trip is similarly damaging.

What condition was she sent to the hospital for? Like, totally psychiatric or were they fasting or something?

I would shocked if meditation could cause a physical emergency. In all my readings and studies of meditation, this is the first I've ever heard of such a situation. Most likely, there was some other reason she had a medical emergency. I'd be curious what else they were doing at the retreat besides basic meditation.

It is quite plausible. Meditation can trigger a psychosis (or delirium). For most people, not likely (the likeliness is not akin to LSD which besides that a trip on LSD is akin to a [positive] psychosis), but it is possible and you hearing about it for the first time is not a valid way of assessing this likelihood. The likeliness is increased if the user is addicted to certain drugs, and quit cold turkey, without decreasing the dosage. This can for example happen with alcohol.

> It is quite plausible.

If it really was "plausible" you'd expect professionals in the field to alert about this. I've heard nothing but positive encouragement from many healthcare providers about the benefits of meditation and not a one of them discussed the possibility of psychosis or delirium.

Honestly, I just don't buy that it's a real problem or that meditation alone would cause serious issues. But I do know that many who do meditation often do other things as well, and those other things are typically much more of a concern.

Listen, it is not occurring a lot (not as much as bad trips on LSD or mushrooms), but it _is_ possible. Don't forget some people have real mental (and heck, physical) disabilities which are affected by drugs as well as medication as well as meditation. Meditation is that powerful. As is (long term) dancing, for that matter.

Also, this wasn't about ordinary meditation. This was about long term meditation. Quoting:

> "[...] during a mindfulness meditation retreat last weekend [...]"

Retreat is the keyword. This person was meditating full stop, like going on Vipassana course. That is not the same as someone doing mindfulness for 30 minutes at home and feeling at risk a psychosis occurs.

The example I gave you about withdrawal symptoms occurring during a retreat are also plausible. You have to stay sober in such a retreat. Coffee? Alcohol? Marihuana? LSD? Cocaine? Heroin? Forget about all that. If you sign up for Vipassana, you need to specify what kind of drugs you have used, what kind of medication you have used, and your mental/physical disabilities. Some people however decide to lie about that. Bad idea...

I'm unable to find any academic or journal or industry research papers about these supposed dangers of meditation. I'd like to read them if they are out there.

I have found some blogs on the subject and a couple vague articles on news websites, but that doesn't really mean anything if I can't see real studies on it.

I gave you on two accounts withdrawal symptoms from drugs as example. Surely, you can find scientific information on that. You'd be right that is not the direct result of mindfulness or meditation, but it is indirect result, and since e.g. Vipassana retreat enforces a no drugs an no medication policy it can occur (exceptions can be discussed beforehand though).

We also know that there are people with mental disabilities who are being untreated. Some of those people are sensitive to psychosis, and are at risk f.e. when induced by stress. I myself had a psychosis due to stress (not drugs, not meditation, not medication; I wish it was any of that, but it wasn't; it was stress).

Also, I'm not really sure if such would be reported. Not every psychosis gets documented by doctors. Mine wasn't, because I did not even dare to go outside (light hurted me, severely). I could barely speak. I only drank water for weeks. Barely ate. Bills were piling up. You get the idea.

FWIW, I found this after 3 minutes of searching with DDG:

"In 1994, the “Glossary of Culture-Bound Syndromes” of the diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association states:

Qigong psychotic reaction: A term describing an acute, time-limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or non-psychotic symptoms that may occur after participation in the Chinese folk health-enhancing practice of qigong. Especially vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved in the practice."

http://kktanhp.com/kundalini.htm

I also found 2 min later:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/comments/4dahe9/my_exper...

Which I'm not gonna quote from, and 3 min later:

"A scarce literature exists on meditation and psychosis, and it contains cautions against teaching meditation to people vulnerable to (Yorston, 2001) or currently experiencing active symptoms of psychosis (Deatherage and Lethbridge, 1975)."

https://contextualscience.org/system/files/Chadwick,2005.pdf

Can't say I put a lot of effort in this. Yet I found this rather easily.

TBH, I don't think you are trying hard enough. To me it appears it is not fitting your viewpoint so you just gave up quickly. You also ignore the points I made (see top of my post).

> You'd be right that is not the direct result of mindfulness or meditation

> Vipassana retreat enforces a no drugs an no medication policy it can occur

This is exactly the point I've been making, that the meditation itself is not to blame for these issues.

Thanks for the other links, I shall read them.

Regarding Qigong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong#Safety_and_cost

> This is exactly the point I've been making, that the meditation itself is not to blame for these issues.

Well, if the subject lied about their medical conditions, then the retreat has written proof of that. That's why you gotta fill it in (its also why visa waiver asks seemingly ridiculous questions). Its CYA; in this case so it is more difficult to sue them successfully afterwards. That also underlines there is a responsibility for the retreat provider(s). You cannot completely deny responsibility. The relationship between client (customer) and server (provider) is not equal here. The provider is the specialist; the client is not.

> Thanks for the other links, I shall read them.

Great. Be aware I spend 2 + 2 + 3 minutes on it just to prove there is research on this available. I didn't do an exhaustive search so I suggest you push the limit further in that regard.

> Regarding Qigong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong#Safety_and_cost

I find it furthermore ironic you link to that subpart of the Wikipedia page and my browser shows in such a way in the middle of my screen the "Overview of clinical research" (which I read first) where it is written: "Although clinical research examining health effects of qigong is increasing, there is little financial or medical incentive to support research, and still only a limited number of studies meet accepted medical and scientific standards of randomized controlled trials (RCTs).[75]" and "A 2011 overview of systematic reviews of clinical trials concluded that "the effectiveness of qigong is based mostly on poor quality research" and "therefore, it would be unwise to draw firm conclusions at this stage".[3]" yet at the part you link to (which I was searching for in middle of my screen) it says "Qigong is generally viewed as safe.[74]" and "Although a 2010 comprehensive literature review found 77 peer-reviewed RCTs;[75] systematic reviews for particular health conditions show that most clinical research is of poor quality, typically because of small sample size and lack of proper control groups, with lack of blinding associated with high risk of bias.[3]" (Apart from the irony of my experience) this is clearly in contradiction with each other within the same article.

Sorry, I'm careful. This article sums up why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13423421

I get bad reactions from mindfulness meditation. I am not the only one: Do a quick google search about it. Yes, it is uncommon comparatively, but this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not sure why this is surprising to you: After all, people often use meditation for spiritual experiences, to go into altered states of conciousness, and other such things (much like psychedelics). And if they can help anxiety or depression - much like medications can - they can certainly harm things as well.

Medical professionals probably do say good things about it. But lets look at this closer: They probably say good things about medications too - because most people react well to it. This doesn't mean that it doesn't cause problems in a few people, nor that you will hear about it.

For me, it makes it so I'm angry. I'm unhappy with everyday life. I'm frustrated all the time and I dread the sessions. I've found some meditation styles that don't pick up the mindfulness and kept them up for a few months: but basically, I was sitting there being bored once a day and didn't have anything to show at the end for the work I had done. So I quit. I would certainly never do a retreat because I think I could be that person.

LSD (when I was younger) and other hallucinogens (now that I can vacation in Amsterdam) have, however, helped a great deal. More than meditation. You see, it seems to me that for meditation to work, you have to know how to produce some of these feelings - or at least recognize them in real time. You have to understand how to do what the stuff says. You have to be able to not beat yourself up for failing (which is difficult if you have perfectionist tendencies or some fear of failure). The other is more ... forced positive feelings, plus some altered thinking. Suddenly I remember what this is all like, and can take it to my daily life.

Are you trying those "magic truffles" in Amsterdam? I worry about such things in the commercial space as possibly being laced with other things, since they aren't really regulated. You found them helpful?

That's the problem with the quasi-legal stuff in Amsterdam. Weird place in regulation, where only part of the process has much of anything. Really it is the similar with weed and hash, and somewhat similar to the regular illegal drug market - with the exception of selling this stuff to residents and tourists in a completely legal manner. It seems the pushback for lacing such things would be pretty severe in this case. The unfortunate reality of this stuff is that unless we have some of that regulation and legality in place, this particular risk will be there.

Helpful, yes. Preferred? No - LSD and little forest mushrooms are my preference. But most folks have to contend with legality of things, including myself, and these are a legal option.

Being pretty introspective on them, I giggled at myself and found myself quite clever. I remembered what it was like to be happy with myself and my thoughts. The downside - with the truffles anyway - was that while sobering up, I could feel the everyday worries and anxieties coming back. They were gone for a bit, and I hadn't even noticed. It sucked the first time, but the combination of it all was such that I could start making changes in things the very next day - partially because I remembered.

LSD is not a predictable experience, practice 1) and you have the skills on tap, anytime, anyplace, forever :) Meditation is like exercise, you don't need to know why it works, or whether it is working, just do it !

You seem to basically post the same when the topic of depression comes up. Multiple times this week. Can be easily verified by clicking on your name, and then comments.

Our previous discussion on this is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13290295

I agree about mindfulness.

However you provide no information on your LSD claim. There's no way one can "educate themselves about everything" on any subject this is CYA. There's no proof of a "spiritual dimension" this is not science; this is new age poppycocks rhetoric.

I still recommend the things I recommended in my previous post (I recommend the reader to read it). Apart from yoga, as well as running, and sunlight (especially in the summer since you build up the vitamin D in the summer).

For winter depression I would love to recommend a high lux light lamp, but I personally haven't read any good research wether this works or not or wether it is placebo effect.

> this is not science;

Didn't the war on drugs didn't put a damper on this? Although they seem to be finding medical uses MDMA now. I just wonder how many things we could be benefiting from that have been shelved because of prohibition.

I use light therapy in the winter. It feels like it at least helps wake me up on those days when the midwest skies are nothing but grey. I don't know if there is any science behind it. I sit out side as much as I can the 3-6 months that it's decent out.

I think recommending LSD is a bad idea. If it works for you, great, but even the best doctors can't agree on what drugs are helpful most of the time. I have friends who have used LSD and other drugs in the past and have experienced many negative side effects.

At the moment I am trying to help a workmate hang in there and get life back on track after a period of intense depression. I am not going to advise her to take LSD or to meditate, even if 'hipster' style with this 'mindful' nonsense.

Normal people who have happy, functional lives do not meditate or take micro doses of LSD.

With all drugs the underlying condition is important, with hallucinogenic substances that usually means the base mood - happy or sad - gets amplified. That means the risk of a bad trip. My workmate has tried coping with 'party drugs' but the comedown is horrible - more depression.

I am doing well with my workmate, we do things like eating, walking, cycling and talking, i.e. doing stuff. For a laugh though I might tell her she needs LSD and minfulness bullshit.

> Normal people who have happy, functional lives do not meditate or take micro doses of LSD.

Normal people who don't have a cold don't need to take cough syrup.

It's precisely because being depressed is an atypical state that you need to take special approaches to deal with it.

As if cough syrup works anyway - any comparison between getting a cold virus and being depressed is a bit lame. Very poor.

Normal people who aren't ill don't need special treatments. Is it clearer now?

Well... I believe depression is actually quite normal, everyone experiences depression (not to confused with sadness) at some stage or other.

What is not normal is sitting in front of some app, taking micro doses of LSD and 'meditating' in some stereotyped new-age fake-hipster-American way.

For normal depression for normal people it is possible to meditate without the LSD and the feigned posture. What you do is you go outside the front door and walk, ride a bike, go for a jog or go for a swim. Sure these normal activities do not have the pretence of the believe system that goes with mindful-LSD-taking but, for normal people with normal depression (including the suicidal thoughts), normal healthy activities can help too, e.g. a gentle stroll with no funny meds needed.

That you describe mindfulness meditation as "new-age" suggests to me that you aren't familiar with it, and are dismissing it out of hand rather than thoughtfully. The new-age movement has a spiritual element to it, mindfulness meditation does not. The complete, entire point of mindfulness meditation is learning to be present and aware of the workings of your mind. Real-time self awareness is not "new-age fake hipster", it's a valuable skill, particularly for depressed people. Having this improved self awareness can include recognizing when you become relatively more or less sad, which can lead you towards or away from various situations and behaviors.

I think you're reacting negatively because of the commenter's association with LSD. That's not representative of the mindfulness practice in general, so if that feels a bit too "Berkeley" for you then don't throw away the baby with the bath water. Personally, I've never tried LSD, and although I'm a bit curious about it, I've read accounts of people being mentally crippled for years by a bad trip - not worth the risk.

What is normal depression? What is a normal person?

How do you leave the house when you are depressed?

Mindfullness doesn't appear to be bullshit.

The evidence for mindfullness is about as good as for meds or cognitive behaviour therapy -- it helps some people, but not everyone.

It has a part to play in a package of bio-psycho-social care.

"Normal people who have happy, functional lives do not meditate or take micro doses of LSD."

Actually, they do. Especially meditation. Sometimes that is why they meditate - is because it keeps them healthy and happier. After all, a sign of a "normal, happy, functional" person is that they handle their stress. Additionally, many more people meditate as a course of religion, though sometimes they use the word prayer instead.

Happy, normal, functional people that are also curious might do micro doses of lsd just to see how it affects their life. Or they might have been doing ti for years to treat their illness so they can be that happy, functional person. Just like folks take anti-depressants daily and you assume they are normal people with happy, functional lives. I don't always react well to meditation, but some folks do. Seriously.

"... with hallucinogenic substances, that usually means the base mood - happy or sad - gets amplified"

Sure, for some folks, this stuff happens. But again, some folks react differently to therapy and "normal" psychiatric drugs, so I'm not sure why folks think the "party drugs" would be different in that respect. And obviously dosage is important: A teaspoon of cough syrup will produce different reactions than drinking the whole bottle. For what it might help, I will notice the normal, everyday "anxiety" coming back while hallucinogens are wearing off, but it really isn't a big deal for me. I wake up the next day feeling like I*ve been able to massage my brain - like it has been all limbered up for use, and the effects last for some time.

Sometimes the reasons why a person is happy or normal is because they are meditating.