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Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by mtw on Friday January 06, 2017 @01:50PM (#13339039)
Unified vision was nice. What interested me first in the Apple ecosystem was its use by high-end pros. Photographers, creatives, filmmakers. Then they announced MacOS X, built upon NeXT/BSD, and the mac pro products.

Now Microsoft has dedicated products for high-end creatives (Surface studio won't sell but still shows interest in pros), Linux Bash shell in windows 10. Meanwhile Apple wants pros to use a 9" tablet instead of a laptop.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by bsder on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:37PM (#13339950)
> Now Microsoft has dedicated products for high-end creatives (Surface studio won't sell but still shows interest in pros)

Every single professional who uses the Surface Studio practically has an orgasm.

If Microsoft keeps support up for it long enough that the CAD program developers are willing to take the plunge on the new features and integrate them into their programs, it will completely displace Apple with the high-end professionals.

The question is whether Microsoft will keep pumping money into the line long enough to get the application developers on board. They've been burned several times.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by badloginagain on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:46PM (#13341012)
> They've been burned several times.

I see a fundamental shift has taken place at Microsoft under Satya's direction. Open-sourcing the core technologies that act as the foundation for Microsoft is a huge deal. Surface Studio uncompromisingly for pros (a big problem for MS hardware in the past is that they try to hedge their bets- try to jam stuff in there for everyone).

When you think about how quickly this has changed, it looks like Satya has a clear vision for MS, and pros are part of that vision. When's the last time you've seen a 'visionary' Microsoft (that didn't involved delusional thinking)?

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by plussed_reader on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:31PM (#13341289)
That's what I thought too about Satya's tenure. I had heard great things about win10, and then I saw the ads and freemium paywall ware that lines the standard install of win10.

Hard pass.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by nol13 on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:53AM (#13342734)
+1 and I agree and I personally run linux on my desktop, but I will say that if you buy your laptop from microsoft directly at least they do a good job of making sure that the only crapware pre-loaded is from microsoft, even if otherwise the same model laptop you'd get from any other store that comes with crapware from anyone willing to pay a few bucks. (or few cents?, what does a pre-install from the big vendors go for these days?)
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by BoorishBears on Friday January 06, 2017 @08:09PM (#13341765)
Welcome to what Windows has been on non-pro consumer hardware for decades.

The difference is now Microsoft is providing the crapware, the crapware isn't malicious (like say, Superfish was), and it's not that difficult for power users to disable it or tuck it out of the way.

I love Windows 10 (at least, as much as my love for Windows goes), yes MS made some moves towards treating it a bit like Google and Apple treat their mobile OSes, but not horridly large steps.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by gumby on Saturday January 07, 2017 @02:47AM (#13342888)
> I see a fundamental shift has taken place at Microsoft under Satya's direction.

I haven't seen it yet, but it's still early days.

You cite some examples, examples that are real, eye-catching, but for me not substantive. The fundamental shift I'm looking for is a true shift in customer focus. Microsoft's big customer is enterprise I/T, who is not the end user for much of the tech. Azure seems designed to help State Farm (to pick an F500 at random) add some of that new cloud stuff to their Windows ecosystem. A good business decision, but in the age of AWS and even google services, it's simply incremental.

I could be unfair in saying "not substantive" to the open source initiatives, simply because it's such a huge philosophical shift (to a small part of their business, at least so far). Otherwise, I'm not seeing it yet.

But it takes a very long time to steer a big ship like Microsoft or Apple.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by WWLink on Friday January 06, 2017 @09:29PM (#13342048)
The surface studio isn't entirely uncompromising - it comes with a really unimpressive GPU for the type of monitor it's pushing and the type of people it's marketed to. On the plus side, egpus should work with it.

I do agree though the Surface Studio gets my interest in a way that iMacs haven't since the iMac G4. It seemed like after the G4 they just kept phoning it in with yet another pizza box iMac.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by mustacheemperor on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:53AM (#13342735)
I would say the initial release of the Intel iMac is the last time an Apple desktop release excited me. Seeing those impossibly thin aluminum bezels with huge purple nebulae onscreen really felt a little bit like the future.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by stcredzero on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:02PM (#13340160)
If Microsoft keeps support up for it long enough that the CAD program developers are willing to take the plunge on the new features and integrate them into their programs, it will completely displace Apple with the high-end professionals.

I think it has huge potential outside of CAD. Anything that deals with complex flows of data/material would benefit from such an interface.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by qyv on Friday January 06, 2017 @01:52PM (#13339051)
If 2017 turns out to be the year the VR starts to hit the main stream, which it could be, it will be interesting to see what Apple's response will be.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by jclardy on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:00PM (#13340673)
I highly doubt it will be. And this is coming from an owner of a GTX 1080 and HTC Vive. There are some really awesome games and experiences, but there is nothing that I really want to keep going back to. No Rocket League or Minecraft (Well, there is vivecraft, but minecraft in VR just isn't that much more appealing to me than the vanilla game.) PSVR might get some stuff but for now it seems like most large companies are just putting their toes in the water by giving out small tech demos.

VR needs a couple of things, and they aren't going to happen in less than a year. First and most importantly, cheaper and better hardware. Daydream is nice, but at most it is good for 360 video and some cheap games. Get some head tracking in there somehow and then it becomes interesting. Also, it needs something like the oculus touch controllers or vive controllers so you can actually use your hands for things.

Secondly, an actual killer app. Some kind of game that only works in VR. Something that you want to keep coming back to.

Lastly - simplicity. Daydream is simple but too limited. The vive has all the features but setting up lighthouses is a pain unless you can permanently mount them. Also being tethered to your computer sucks (A solution for that is on the way, but it will only add to the cost.) Headsets are still bulky and uncomfortable to wear for long periods.

My point I guess is that Apple's typical timing with things would put them entering the market in 2018 at the earliest. This is like the early Windows Phone/PalmOS days before the iPhone (But I doubt Apple will be the one releasing the "iPhone" of VR.)

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by kayoone on Friday January 06, 2017 @08:52PM (#13341945)
Tech Journalist Robert Scoble seems to be super certain that the next iPhone this year will be AR/VR and blow everyone away, he apparently has credible sources. Personally i don't buy it at all and can't wait for everyone to tell him "i told you so"
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by msabalau on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:15PM (#13341196)
Maybe. Of course killer apps don't have to spring full formed as launch titles. Visicalc arrived two and a half years after the launch of the Apple II. I don't think we can count out people coming up with something remarkable in 2017 given that there are platforms from Facebook, Google, Steam and Sony.

As for myself, even without a killer app, VR has gotten me saving memories as photo spheres, in addition to pictures and videos.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by ryanSrich on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:55PM (#13339627)
VR has a massive hurdle to get over. You can't expect people to drop $600 on a headset _and_ (at least) $1k on a machine that can run it.

Costs will come down, but 2017 won't be the year. I expect VR to grow, but only in the gaming market.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by bratsche on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:47PM (#13341022)
I know I'm probably a minority of HN users and other tech enthusiasts on this issue, but I'm totally uninterested in VR. I've tried it a few times and my general impression was, "Neat." That's a far cry from an impression like, "OMG this is the most amazing thing ever!" which is what I was kind of expecting to think.

I'm more interested in AR, personally. But it's hard for me to articulate why exactly because honestly I don't have much experience with it yet. It just seems more interesting to me. I'd really like to get a Hololens to start experimenting with, but can't really justify the cost of it right now.

(disclosure: I work for Microsoft, which makes Hololens. Not meaning to promote it, these are my personal opinions)

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by JBlue42 on Friday January 06, 2017 @11:44PM (#13342408)
You're not alone.

I work at an AEC firm. We give money and some privilege to 2-3 people at work to experiment with VR. It's interesting to some degree but, beyond being a marketing tool, I don't really see it being useful as a professional tool any time soon.

These things are hard to call though, like anything in future tech (or the future in general). They consider it revolutionary new tech whereas I'm on the side of "shiny new toy" and "wait and see" but the powers that be have no issue spending the money on it while I see some of core competencies and actual training for the future being ignored (transitions to BIM and training in better 3D modeling programs).

Not my company or money though.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by shuntress on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:59PM (#13340134)
I want to buy a VR headset but I currently cannot justify it due to the cost+use of the device.

I, and I think enough other people, already have a $1k+ PC for the huge amount of non-VR games it gives access to.

But the big catch for me is that there just doesn't seem to be enough content that will work with and (more importantly) be enhanced by a VR experience. I simply don't have the cash-on-hand to justify spending ~$800 to make Elite Dangerous slightly more immersive. But if a good VR headset was more in the $200 range (like the very similarly limited hotas I bought for the same reason) I would probably jump.

It does seem like this year may bring the cost of the devices down low enough that more devs and more audience can get on board and bring it in to the main stream because it is very nearly there already.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by qyv on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:19PM (#13339838)
Not according to Microsoft, VR is going to be a big push for them this year. Granted a lot can go wrong, but they are addressing all the points you just listed:

* Headset Pricing: Major OEMs will be releasing headsets starting at $300 [0]

* Lowering system specs for VR [1]

* Not just a gaming focus: Windows 10 creators update puts an emphasis on 3D and Mixed-Reality, including a 'holographic' interface [2]

[0] http://1reddrop.com/2017/01/06/microsoft-announces-299-windo... [1] http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2016/12/08/microsoft-unveils... [2] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/upcoming-features

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by shuntress on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:09PM (#13340219)
I have actually been able to play around with a Hololens (AR vs VR but close enough) and it is extremely cool.

It honestly feels like only minor improvements in size/speed/usability will make it massively useful in normal life very soon.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by zeroer on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:55PM (#13341076)
I think Microsoft is 2-3 years too early (or maybe that's the plan?). The technology just isn't there yet. Headesets need to double the resolutions on the displays and increase the frame rate by 50%.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by martinald on Saturday January 07, 2017 @06:04AM (#13343474)
Agreed, I find the current resolution on VR headsets a huge letdown. Actually made worse by the fact that everything else I have these days is retina, 4K, etc so at a very high resolution.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by rm_-rf_slash on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:52PM (#13340587)
VR could find use in other market segments that existing technologies are insufficient for at a scale that make it affordable.

Take theaters for example. They have been looking for a market for years but since people have screens and streaming at home they don't tend to go as much. However they could find a new life by purchasing VR headsets in bulk and selling livestreams of plays/musicals/operas, and possibly sports games as well. These will always be experiences better seen live, but VR would be a significant step above television.

That way someone could enjoy VR at a very low cost, and possibly spur them to buy a headset themselves, when the price is right.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by imaginenore on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:19PM (#13339836)
You don't need a $1K machine for VR. Example:

GTX 970 = $155: http://ebay.com/itm/371833128329

GTX 980 = $235: http://ebay.com/itm/291993305929

Gaming PC with GTX 970 = $540: http://ebay.com/itm/112250177638

Gaming PC with GTX 1070 = $690: http://ebay.com/itm/222369412011

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by wavefunction on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:08PM (#13340216)
I think ebay is the last place I'd buy pretty much anything. Especially when the price discrepancy between those listings and fully legit stores is so different. Just a personal observation.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by imaginenore on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:23PM (#13340326)
Buy from the sellers with good reviews and lots of reviews, and you will be fine. And if you pay with PayPal, eBay guarantees to return your money if something goes wrong.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by spectrum1234 on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:27PM (#13340360)
Enter Google Daydream. Only need $650 phone (much cheaper ones were just announced that support it I think) and a $80 headset. And most importantly they are building it correctly so that many/most high end VR games will also run on Daydream.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by Mystrl on Friday January 06, 2017 @09:44PM (#13342119)
I have a computer that can run vr (i7-6700k + 1080) enough disposable income to afford a headset and I'm still not interested. There just hasn't been anything released for vr that doesn't seem like a gimmick.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by xauronx on Friday January 06, 2017 @10:06PM (#13342178)
Have you played one yet? I thought the same thing, argued with people, etc. Played at a friends house and ordered one the next day.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by dagw on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:34PM (#13339423)
VR in 2017 will be 90+% about gaming, and Apple has never really cared about gaming. I doubt they'll start caring now all of a sudden.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by grovegames on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:57PM (#13340126)
They make billions off gaming...
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by dagw on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:03PM (#13340165)
Fair enough. They've never cared about the sort of gaming commonly done on the sort of computers that will be able to do VR in 2017. When we get to the point where the iPad/iPhone can do high quality VR then I'll re-evaluate my statement.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by nashashmi on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:40PM (#13339984)
VR is all about immersive experiences. Apple always cares about experiences.

And my thoughts are that Apple cannot bring the same Stevie vision of simplicity and use to VR, which is why they will never care about it.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by jerf on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:11PM (#13340244)
I'm not sure about that. It seems to me that VR is ripe for a high-end offering that is vertically integrated and quality assured. The VR landscape is already a bit fragmented and it probably won't get less so.

They'll have to stick better graphics cards in their computers, but that's doable.

Probably their biggest challenge would be coming up with a headset that is "Apple-y", given that the design issues involved in creating them right now still create something fundamentally klunky. (VR is starting to take off not because anyone's figured out how to make it not klunky, but because it transitioned from intolerably klunky to tolerably klunky. Along with the latency improvements.)

I'm not saying they're going to do it. But they could.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by eva1984 on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:34PM (#13339427)
How? Everyone suddenly realizes they have been closet gamer for many years and comes out for VR?
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by rimantas on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:22PM (#13339352)
It will be a year when VR hype scales back. Not the first time and not the last one.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by spectrum1234 on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:26PM (#13340346)
Yea. Google is taking amazing steps to kill it in this market with Daydream. I have it and for the price (diff vs non high end phone) and $80 headset is it perfect.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by user5994461 on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:16PM (#13339290)
What's hitting the market? Didn't hear anything.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by qyv on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:07PM (#13339733)
Windows 10 Creators Update along with a slew of headsets from major PC vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc.) starting at $300.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by seanp2k2 on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:42PM (#13340002)
The problem I see is that VR would be great with dual 2K screens and 120+hz , but we don't have the GPUS to push that many pixels today (in any remotely affordable way...maybe quad TitanX would work).

Cheaper, lower-quality VR headsets will leave a bad impression on consumers. I don't think that's the direction we should be going. I'd rather see HTC and Oculus release higher-res, faster refresh rate HMDs, but I doubt they'd do that with no single GPU able to run those today.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by tekromancr on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:42PM (#13340492)
When you get to scale, you can start doing things like manufacturing displays with higher PPI near where the lenses are centered. That way you have the same number of total physical pixels but a higher resolution contributing to the image.

You can further reduce the computational costs by using foveated rendering(http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/johnsny/papers...). You can use low-latency eye-tracking to spend more time rendering the portions of the frame that the user is actively looking at.

I think the combo of falling gpu prices, and clever hardware design means we will probably see headsets with effectively higher and higher resolutions sooner rather than later.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by zeroer on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:57PM (#13341091)
That's going to be difficult given how often and how fast eyes move and how sensitive they are.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by rtkwe on Friday January 06, 2017 @08:05PM (#13341755)
You'd need a new lens design for that really. Right now the lenses that are used aren't really good if you start looking to the side too much. When I get going in VR I generally just look with my head instead of my eyes to avoid those lens issues like chromatic aboration.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by dagw on Friday January 06, 2017 @03:54PM (#13340098)
a slew of headsets from major PC vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc.) starting at $300.

Wonder if that will help or hinder VR. Personally I think the Vive is just about the bare minimum needed for VR to barely be acceptable. If peoples first impression of VR is something less than that I doubt they'll be impressed enough to actually use VR for more than 15 minutes over the first 2 weeks after purchase.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by jsmith0295 on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:30PM (#13339398)
Surface Studio is actually selling at 2x what Microsoft anticipated it selling for, so it seems to be a bigger market than one would think.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by chrisabrams on Friday January 06, 2017 @02:52PM (#13339593)
The quality of the current line of surfaces is pretty good. A few friends who have needed a replacement computer/laptop but need to use Windows for work have opted for the Surface. Gives them nice portability and they don't really need an iPad (or can't afford a laptop and iPad).
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by heroprotagonist on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:47PM (#13341025)
> Linux Bash shell in windows 10

Despite their "this is all about the developer" statements, making Windows Subsystem for Linux unable to co-exist with VMware and other virtualization tools was a deal-breaker for me.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by jackhammons on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:13PM (#13341539)
WSL PM here. No virtualization software is required to use Bash on Windows.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subs...

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by mcpherrinm on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:51PM (#13341049)
Can you expand on this? Are you saying I can't run VMware while Windows Subsystem for Linux is running? I wasn't aware of such a limitation (because I don't use vmware etc.), but would like to know more.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by jackhammons on Friday January 06, 2017 @07:10PM (#13341523)
Heyo, PM for WSL here. Neither VMware, HyperV or any other VM software is required to use Bash on Windows.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subs...

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by blitzd on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:00PM (#13341103)
I believe it's based upon hyper-v, which typically precludes using other VM software on the same machine. Docker toolbox for Windows 10 has the same issues.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by hirsin on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:20PM (#13341233)
No, WSL does not require hyper-v. It is a totally separate system from hyper-v and does not rely on virtualization of any kind. You can use WSL alongside any other VM software.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by pirocks on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:18PM (#13341214)
I don't know much but the bash on windows thing was a completely separate thing from vm's.
Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by heroprotagonist on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:09PM (#13341161)
Actually, I might be wrong. I thought it required Hyper-V, since it ran an Ubuntu under the covers, and that assumption might incorrect.

Specifically, it's enabling Hyper-V which makes Windows incompatible with VMware. The incompatibility results in more issues than just those with the bash shell. The big one for me is Docker for Windows:

https://forums.docker.com/t/docker-for-windows-w-vmware-inst...

I think I will just try it out and revert back if there's an issue, since I can't find clear documentation about it being incompatible. So I assume I'm wrong.

I can let you know if you like.

Re:Apple cuts Tim Cook's pay 15% for missing sales goals by sitharus on Friday January 06, 2017 @06:26PM (#13341262)
It does run an ubuntu/GNU userspace, but not ubuntu Linux. WSL is a Linux ABI layer for Windows so no virtualisation is needed. It's more like WINE.