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Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by scarface74 on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:14PM (#13311380)
Completely off topic...

For someone who doesn't follow Intel chip generations closely, the chart of the generations of Core I3/I5/I7 chips was informative. Two Observations:

1. Why doesn't Intel actually name the chips to make them clearer?

2. The poor Mac Mini that Apple is selling in 2017 uses 2013 era chips and is way overpriced.

Edit: fixed typos

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by jccalhoun on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:39PM (#13311693)
>Why doesn't Intel and actually name the chips to make them clearer?

Because that would make it clearer which chip was better when an average non-techie person was in Best Buy. If it was clearer which chip was which, Acer and Lenovo and whatever low end computer maker is still around couldn't put a cheaper chip in without people noticing.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mohaine on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:01PM (#13311956)
To make it worse, they switched up the OEM model numbers to be unique so you can't tell for sure that the $300 dell cpu upgrade is really only switching out a $100 for a $250 one.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by sfont on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:52PM (#13312416)
If you're not familiar with http://ark.intel.com it lists all the specs and the recommended price.

Picked a random Dell and see they are charging $66.30 to upgrade from a $117 i3 to a $192 i5. I'm not sure where the unique SKU idea comes from. They've always had some chips that are retail packaged and others that are only available in trays for OEMs.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by kogepathic on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:35PM (#13311643)
> 2. The poor Mac Mini that Apple is selling in 2017 uses 2013 era chips and is way overpriced.

Although the author points out that single core performance hasn't improved since Sandy Bridge (2011) and multi-core performance has been largely lackluster since then.

While I agree it's shameful for Apple to be selling the current Mac Mini, the performance from 2017 chips is going to be only ~20% better than what's in the Mac Mini now. [0]

It's not a completely fair comparison because the i7-7500U is 15W, but I can't find any Intel mobile CPUs released in 2015 or 2016 which were dual core and didn't have a 15W TDP.

[0] http://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp%5B%5D=2345&cmp%5...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by robotjosh on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:38PM (#13312291)
It is the stuff around the cpu that is improving. Those 2013 chips cannot properly drive a 4k display. Even a 2014 macbook pro with amd graphics is sluggish on 4k. But, a modern skylake with intel 530 integrated graphics can drive a 4k screen at 60hz without any mouse lag.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by kogepathic on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:56PM (#13312448)
> Those 2013 chips cannot properly drive a 4k display.

Which honestly seems pretty fair. 4K wasn't mainstream in 2013, you needed to spend a lot of money to buy a 4K display or projector. [0]

I wouldn't say that most people purchasing a Mac Mini are planning to use a 4K display with it, considering its target market is people who want to buy a Mac (without an integrated display) but don't want to shell out for a Mac Pro.

The Mac Pro not supporting 4K is a problem, one that has been brought up by many other people as an example of how Apple is ignoring the Pro market segment.

[0] http://www.alphr.com/news/382774/asus-takes-pre-orders-on-fi...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by potatolicious on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @04:16PM (#13313180)
The Mac Mini's specs were pretty fair for 2013, but selling them in 2017 is pretty atrocious.

4K display prices are down, way down, and well within the normal consumer range now - you can pick up a very nice 4K monitor for $300 or less. It's not unreasonable to expect a Mac being sold new in 2017 to be able to drive it...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by Stratoscope on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @05:23PM (#13313742)
> Even a 2014 macbook pro with amd graphics is sluggish on 4k.

I have a late 2013 MBPR (NVIDIA GT750M) with an external 4K monitor in portrait mode connected via DisplayPort, plus the laptop's display. Both are running at 60Hz. I don't see any sluggishness or mouse lag at all; everything is very smooth.

I mostly run Windows 10 on this machine, but it also works fine when I boot in to OSX.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by robotjosh on Thursday January 05, 2017 @11:57PM (#13334083)
I thought the macbook with amd was fine on 4k especially after getting the right cable for 60hz. The i5 with intel 530 is better. Maybe it is because graphics cards are designed more for 3d processing than for general 4k performance. I tried playing a 2d shooting game on each and for whatever reason the intel 530 system was less latent and much easier to win. The macbook is as smooth as the intel 530 when on its native screen but not when it drives a 4k screen.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by quicklyfrozen on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @06:50PM (#13314421)
I'm sure he's talking about MBPs with only Intel graphics (which frankly seemed a little underpowered for the Retina display much less a 4k monitor).
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by Stratoscope on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @08:13PM (#13314871)
Actually not: "a 2014 macbook pro with amd graphics".

A while back I tested a 2014 MBPR with the AMD GPU vs. my late 2013 model with NVIDIA, and the AMD was a bit faster.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by quicklyfrozen on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @11:00PM (#13315583)
Not sure how I missed that...
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mjmsmith on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @04:19PM (#13313201)
> While I agree it's shameful for Apple to be selling the current Mac Mini, the performance from 2017 chips is going to be only ~20% better than what's in the Mac Mini now.

Which means it still won't be as powerful as the Mini they sold five years ago:

https://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks

At the beginning of last year, I expected to be replacing a Mini and a MacBook. I ended up buying a 2012 Mini and a 2012 MacBook Pro on eBay, bumping up the memory and swapping in SSDs. I never would have imagined that a few years ago.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mrmondo on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:53PM (#13311850)
And the Mac Pro... that is /old/ tech nowadays
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dsp1234 on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:36PM (#13311663)
re: #1

Intel does name their chips. ex: Intel Core i7-6700K[0], Intel Core i7-5775C[1]

They also have families (Core i7), and generations (6th Generation i7 Processors), and microarchitectures (Skylake)[2]

As for making it clearer, I think the i3/i5/i7/Xeon branding is probably as clear as they can, given that they have a few dozen processors per market (Desktop/Server/Mobile/Embedded) per generation, each targeting a different thing (low TDP, high clock speed, more cores, hyperthreading, etc).

[0] - http://ark.intel.com/products/88195/Intel-Core-i7-6700K-Proc...

[1] - http://ark.intel.com/products/88040/Intel-Core-i7-5775C-Proc...

[2] - http://ark.intel.com/products/codename/37572/Skylake#@Deskto...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mrmondo on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:40PM (#13311699)
IMO xeons are the most confusing, especially since they often run behind by a year or so. E3 vs E5 vs v2, vs v3, va v4, vs v5 vs core clock speed (important for single threaded apps and databases) vs multicore horizontal scale, 2650 v3 doesn't really explain the generation, clock speed, cache size or number of cores (maybe I'm stupid?)
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dsp1234 on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:31PM (#13312240)
Definitely. Xeons are targetted towards businesses, which generally have a wider variance of needs. So at that point, what can you do but give it a code name, and plenty of documentation. Clicking on the Xeon E5 v3 family link[0] and then click on "Compare All", takes to a page that has a feature by feature comparison of all of those processors[1], which you can use to pin down the specific processor to meet your needs.

[0] - http://ark.intel.com/products/family/78583/Intel-Xeon-Proces...

[1] - http://ark.intel.com/compare/?ids=85766,85765,85764,85763,85...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by snuxoll on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:12PM (#13312611)
Xeons are a little more confusing,

E3/E5/E7 (market segment + socket), the first digit is the socket configuration (2/4/8), the next 3 digits are a model number and the vX at the end is the CPU generation.

The Xeon E3-1220v2 in my ProLiant ML10 is a lower-end, single socket Xeon in a fairly high performance segment.

The Xeon E5-2403v2 in my ThinkServer TD340 is a mid-range, dual socket Xeon in a fairly low performance segment.

The fact that the 3 digit identifier has no relation to overall performance is the biggest shame in the Xeon chips, considering Intel does this with the Core i3/i5/i7 products.

OTOH, Xeon's can vary so wildly it's hard to give a tangible performance or configuration metric to the model identifier. Things like overall CPU cache, core count, clock speed, expansion support (namely, number of PCIe lanes) all vary so much that you really have no choice but to look at ARK since there's no way to convey this in a more efficient manner.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dvt on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:00PM (#13312492)
I'd say Xeons are actually less confusing, given that they have an actual naming convention[1].

EX = product line

vX = generation

The clock speed omission is a bummer, but Xeons have two different clock speeds on all processors (one turbo -- which only a certain percentage of the cores can hit simultaneously), so things are a bit more complicated.

[1] https://semiaccurate.com/assets/uploads/2011/04/xeonmodels.p...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by gpderetta on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @06:16PM (#13314201)
also core count varies between xeon version in the same generation/product line.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by raverbashing on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:46PM (#13312353)
Sorry, it is not clear

The i3/i5/i7 is clear as market segmentation. But you never know which generation is the current one. Also there remains to be seen a clear differentiation between models "inside" i3/i5/i7 division

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by noxToken on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:24PM (#13312703)
i7-6700k breaks down to ix-yzzzA

x is the brand family that most everyone is familiar with.

y is the generation. 6th gens with have a 6. 7th gens will have a 7.

zzz is roughly a capability indicator. The higher the number, the more powerful the processor (generally speaking). This is only comparable within the same generation. Comparisons will be off when comparing these identifiers to other generations, so it's suggested to us benchmarks.

A is a alphabetical modifier to indicate a feature like unlocked.

So an i7-6700k is an i7 family processor from the 6th generation (Sky Lake) at the 700 "level". The chip is also unlocked for overclocking. An i7-7700k is an i7 family processor from the 7th generation (Kaby Lake) at the 700 "level". This chip is also unlocked. Take all of the goodness from the previous generation's processor, and (more-or-less) give it the new optimization from the current generation.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by brigade on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @05:08PM (#13313601)
Well, except for the "high end" Core-i7 SKUs. i7-6800k and above are based on the 5th generation Broadwell architecture, not the 6th generation as you might expect.

And honestly, the SKUs "level" is a fair bit more random than you imply; you wouldn't know from the model number that i7-6567U was significantly faster than a i7-6660U, for instance. Or that a i7-6700k significantly beats a i7-6700, which significantly beats a i7-6700T.

It's only within the same TDP that the level is non-random, but you aren't going to know this without going on ark.intel.com.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by raverbashing on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:46PM (#13312929)
Thanks for the explanation. I can see it is understandable, but you see it's not obvious?

If I'm at a store and I see a i7-6700 and a i7-7300 which one is better? a i7-6735 or a i7-6720A? It doesn't make any sense for the general public.

Intel used to have one segment, then two segments: the Celeron and Pentium. Then it went for the Core 2, and then other lines

Especially today, that clock speeds are pretty much immaterial, they could take all those models and turn it into only a couple.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by noxToken on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @04:14PM (#13313169)
It's definitely non-intuitive without knowing the breakdown. If someone wants the skinny on a processor, I don't even bother explaining it unless they specifically want to know. I just link them to a benchmark and feature aggregator like cpuboss.

This comparison[0] shows how a 4th gen processor that has a higher over-all benchmark. It's still non-intuitive knowing the breakdown.

[0]: http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i7-6700K-vs-Intel-Core-i7...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dragontamer on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:28PM (#13311568)
> 1. Why doesn't Intel and actually name the chips to make them clearer?

Because it makes more money this way. "Cheap", "Expensive" and "Middle ground" is the optimal marketing strategy.

It feigns transparency but really it is just an opportunity to exploit a common bug in human-brain logic. Specifically, Decoy Pricing.

The i5 and i7 are both quad-core CPUs clocked at no more than 100MHz away from each other. But the i7 is $100 more to make the i5 look like a good deal. When consumers buy the i5 they "think" they got a good deal, when in reality, Intel priced the i7 to make them feel this way.

Read up on Decoy Pricing to learn about this effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies#Decoy_prici...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoy_effect

Also, don't complain about marketers taking advantage of human psychology. That's their freaking job. Instead, you should take advantage of it too.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by jimbokun on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:08PM (#13312574)
It's not working.

Instead of people being confused and accidentally buying a more expensive PC than they need, they just stop buying PCs altogether because there is no clearly communicated benefits for buying a new one.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dragontamer on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:16PM (#13312644)
Of course its not working anymore. Intel has been using the same marketing strategy for roughly 7 years now.

Intel's marketing is due for an update. But for these past seven years, the "Decoy Pricing" of i3 vs i5 vs i7 has upgraded tons of users to i5s without those users fully appreciating the benefits of i3 vs i5 vs i7.

Its rather difficult for me to explain the difference between all three chips, and my uncles / aunts often just settle on i5... or even i7 "just in case".

Trust me on this: the decoy pricing has worked this past half-decade. That the marketing has gotten stale over the course of seven YEARS is no surprise... but how many other systems have had the same freaking name for seven years at a time?

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by nemothekid on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:58PM (#13311916)
>The i5 and i7 are both quad-core CPUs clocked at no more than 100MHz away from each other.

I'm not sure thats a fair comparison - clock rate isn't the only thing and the current high end i5/i7 chips (6600k and the 6700k) are 500Mhz apart, and the i7 (as always) has hyperthreading (in some applications, hyperthreading is actually very useful) while the i5's don't. And while the i7 has a 15% higher clockrate, it is ~20% faster, while being 40% more expensive. With the k-series specifically, the i7 having a higher base clock also means you can overlock it better.

FWIW, I don't find Intel's naming scheme unclear, but OTOH, I have been following CPU/GPU version numbers for over 10 years so I could be blind to the confusion.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by MichaelGG on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:36PM (#13312279)
I have an i5-5200U and it has hyperthreading. The only difference I could see was a slightly higher clockrate, and the Intel management stuff.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dragontamer on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:58PM (#13312469)
Nemothekid and I were mostly talking about quad-core desktop chips.

The i5-5200U is a dual-core laptop chip under 20W TDP. Its very different from the i5-6600k that Nemothekid was talking about.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by Sammi on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:36PM (#13311660)
So when buying an i5 I am in fact getting much more performance per cost compared to the i7, because Intel decided to make the i7 much more expensive in order to make the i5 seem like it has much better performance per cost?
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by neogodless on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:24PM (#13312167)
The other thing with "decoy pricing" is that you "throw away" the cheapest option without proper research.

The Core i3-6320 is about $60-70 cheaper than the i5-6600k, but on applications that don't benefit (sufficiently) from multiple cores, it can perform nearly as well. Anecdotally, friends building PCs always compare i5 and i7 and never consider the i3, but for their real world uses (many games!) it would be just perfect (and the savings could be thrown at the video card where it'd make more of a difference.)

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by usrusr on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @07:15PM (#13314546)
The expected "close enough to state of the art" lifetime of hardware is now so long that you can write off the premium paid for extra cores over many years.

Would i be willing to pay 35$ extra per additional core if I knew I would want to replace the hardware within two years anyway? Questionable. But when hardware lasts half a decade? The premium per core per year becomes irresistably low. The i7-2600k will soon have it's sixth birthday...

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by neogodless on Wednesday January 04, 2017 @10:28AM (#13319008)
I don't disagree. The difference between a $160 6320 and $330 6700 is only $170, and 8 years (how old my Phenom II is...) reduces that cost to barely over $20/year.

However, whether "the core is going to be fully utilized" is another question. If you only ever need 2 cores, it is wasted money, plus, if your focus is on gaming, and your budget requires you to make choices based on right now, the extra $170 can be the difference between getting a Radeon 480 or a Geforce 1070.

(Since I hope my next build lasts another 8 years, I'll probably "pad" my build with an i5... I've fallen into the trap!)

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by legodt on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:41PM (#13311718)
It's also much more expensive to produce an i7. i7 are near perfect chips and are able to run higher clock rate efficiently and safely while i5s are more "standard" and have their performance clamped down to what they can safely handle. There are less i7 chips rolling off the lines, which increases their price.

Hopefully somebody who knows more about this than me can jump in and fill in the blanks here.

EDIT: I communicated my point poorly and the comments below mine explain this is much clearer terms

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mohaine on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:12PM (#13312056)
Historically, I don't think it has worked like this for Intel. It costs way more to have multiple designs so they are all pretty much the same few chips with the packaging changed to disable parts. Sometimes the disabled parts failed QC but the numbers that fail QC but are still usable are not high enough for the high volume parts.

Really it is just a way to do differential pricing. Some people will pay $500, some only $100 while the part only cost $25 to make. The way to maximize profits it sell to both, and find a way to justify the price difference.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dragontamer on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:03PM (#13311969)
I don't know Intel's specifics, but often there's only a few chips that a manufacturer makes... and depending on the Quality / testing of the chips... the chips are binned into different categories.

As a hypothetical example (I'm not 100% sure if this is how Intel does things), and i5 could just be an i7 except it couldn't handle the higher clock rate. So instead of throwing away a chip that's limited in clock... Intel will sell the chip as an i5.

Or perhaps in another chip, the hyperthreading portion got borked because of a piece of dust landed in the lithography. So instead of selling it as an i7, the hyperthreading portion is fused off and the chip is sold as an i5.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by legodt on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:13PM (#13312067)
You're the guy who knew more and filled in the blanks! I am super fascinated by this topic (and an outsider). Do you have any specific examples or situations that you know of this happening? The hypothetical you gave above was awesome and now I'm curious for more.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dragontamer on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:40PM (#13312311)
AMD's Tricore vs Quadcore... something (I think Phentoms??) were definitely this. Some Tricores were able to turn into quad-cores with some firmware hacking.

The IBM-Cell in the PS3 was a different approach to the same problem. The Cell was specified as 7-SPUs and 1-CPU, but in actuality... the manufacturing process made 8-SPUs and 1-CPU.

IBM assumed that one of the SPUs would fail during manufacturing, so they only promised to deliver 7 of them per PS3.

You can literally see the 8 SPUs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Cell-Pro...

There's lots of ways to approach the problem. Manufacturing is an imperfect process: not everything is made identically. So the manufacturers have to figure out how to test for differences and... if necessary... sell the same "manufactured" chip in different bins.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by Fnoord on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @04:24PM (#13313249)
> AMD's Tricore vs Quadcore... something (I think Phentoms??)

Phenom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Phenom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenom_II

Not all the hardware of Cell on PS3 was available if you run the official Linux port. Which was later blatantly removed.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by legodt on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @04:20PM (#13313210)
Thanks for taking the time to go further on this and link that image, very cool stuff.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mrmondo on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:41PM (#13311715)
Is the cache size and turbo boost the same though?
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by MR4D on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:27PM (#13311560)
For #1, I would suggest the answer would not help sales....I think it would look like this (apologies to Apple's old "good, better, best" computer labeling):

Server: expensive, more expensive, you can't afford it

Desktop: nicely priced, expensive

Mobile: nicely priced, expensive, pretty expensive

Of course, if they made it that simple, then this would happen:

Cheap server: buy ARM

Cheap Desktop: buy an older PC

Cheap mobile: ARM

REALLY cheap mobile: buy last years' ARM

For #2, the performance isn't really much different for most people. Running office and surfing the net probably are more limited by typing speed and internet connectivity than the speed of your CPU. I think most people pay those prices because they want the simplicity (either real or imagined) that Apple has over the other options.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by scarface74 on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:55PM (#13311872)
I will even go a step further. For most people, the Performance of a 2008 era Core 2 Duo 2.66Ghz would be enough for non gamers. I have an old business Dell laptop with those specs with 4Gb of RAM running a Plex Server and PlexConnect with Windows 10 and it feels fast enough when using it once you turn off all of the antivirus programs. I don't think I would be able to tell the difference between that and my Core I7 if I maxxed out the RAM to 8GB and added an SSD drive.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by netule on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:43PM (#13312329)
You can get gently used 2013 T420 Thinkpads on eBay for around $150 with an i7 processor, NVIDIA dedicated graphics, and 4GB of RAM. For non-gaming, it's just not worth it to go anywhere beyond that.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by hsivonen on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:34PM (#13312810)
I guess perf being a "gaming" thing on HN suggests that many developers aren't using AOT-compiled languages. More perf is still desirable if you compile Rust programs or large C++ programs. For the latter, it's not just CPU but storage perf matters, too, due to file system-heavy compilation unit and textual include model.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by nine_k on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:59PM (#13312480)
For development, 8 or even 16 GB would be great, and look for the higher-res screen. Anyway, for $200 you can have a very decent, durable, highly compatible machine. The only functional thing lacking would be a Thunderdolt port.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by jeffmcjunkin on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:05PM (#13312549)
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by usrusr on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @07:01PM (#13314482)
For real mobility away from a power outlet, an old notebook might not be all that great. But if it's just about the desktop replacement form factor, then any used post-2010 high end model will provide much better value for money than a fresh low spec device.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mtgx on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:08PM (#13312024)
> 1. Why doesn't Intel actually name the chips to make them clearer?

It's on purpose to trick "normal" consumers into buying lower-end chips thinking they get higher-end performance. It actually tricks a lot of tech-savvy people, too.

Examples:

1) switching up the Core architecture in Celerons and Pentiums for the Atom architecture (but keeping retail/OEM prices the same)

2) making "dual-core" Core i7 chips for laptops (what's the point of all the different variants of Core i5 then ?!)

3) replacing H series in most laptops with lower-performance U series, and soon we're going to witness the switch to the even lower-end (more throttling ~1.5GHz base speed) Y-series

4) they've just started calling the Y-series-based Core M5 and Core M7, Core i5 and Core i7, also to trick consumers into thinking they're getting "Core i5/i7 performance"

I'm hoping AMD's Ryzen + Qualcomm's (fully) Windows 10 capable Qualcomm 835 chip will put some sense into Intel to stop ripping off customers like this, but I think they'll only do it kicking and screaming. In other words don't expect much better "value" from Intel chips at least until 2019-2020. They'll probably just wait for their 2020 streamlined/lower cost architecture before they drop prices too much, unless the competition is rapidly eating away at Intel's market share by then.

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by mrmondo on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:29PM (#13311578)
Could not agree more, both in the desktop and server markets - the naming / models are annoying as crap. I.e. As a server CPU it's not clear weather a E5-2660 v2 is better or worse than an E5-2640 v3 etc.... its just... not clear.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by nine_k on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:05PM (#13312545)
"Is better" at what?

Higher frequency, larger caches, more instructions per core, more cores per die, higher RAM bandwidth, more FLOPS per Watt consumed?

Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by dogismycopilot on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:16PM (#13312642)
yes.
Re:Intel Core i7-7700K Kaby Lake review: Is the desktop CPU ... by rasz_pl on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @05:38PM (#13313867)
because scamming people into buying laptop with i7 .. that has two cores and is clocked up to 2GHz makes you more money