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Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by arjie on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:41PM (#13303767)
> It somehow just baffles the crap out of me to see people want to, and be proud of, overworking / sitting in a car 2-3 hours a day / breathing polluted air / eating prefab sandwiches or other junkfood. Meanwhile labelling any alternative as 'communism' Had a bit of that for the first few years of my working life. Never again

Wtf lol. America isn't necessarily like this. You just had a shit job.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by tdb7893 on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:48PM (#13303824)
I don't know. I've met tons of software engineers in the US that never work less than 45 hours a week in spite of having only 3 or 4 weeks of vacation a year. It seems kinda ridiculous to me
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by jazzyk on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:07PM (#13304535)
Yes, but they make 2x of what most engineers in Europe make (excluding Switzerland/London).

Blue-collar workers are screwed, though.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by thesmallestcat on Monday January 02, 2017 @05:41PM (#13305165)
From what I've seen, if it's not 2x London, it's close.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by spost on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:52PM (#13303853)
Junior dev here, but 3-4 weeks of vacation would be an improvement over my current 15 days...
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by VLM on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:26PM (#13304167)
People are reacting rather violently to 15 days is three weeks, although it isn't. Its the standard two weeks plus 5 holidays, Memorial Day, 4th Jul, Labor, Thanksgiving, Christmas. That's 15 days.

In my youth I worked for a place that advertised 15 days very proudly as meaning two weeks salaried vacation plus a personal day (usually Friday after thanksgiving). After all if you're salaries at a 24x7 operational company, if you want a Saturday off with guaranteed no phone calls, you need to take vacation.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by d4adb33f on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:40PM (#13304295)
> After all if you're salaries at a 24x7 operational company, if you want a Saturday off with guaranteed no phone calls, you need to take vacation.

And people put up with this?

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by mhurron on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:56PM (#13304450)
> People are reacting rather violently to 15 days is three weeks, although it isn't

That depends on how it's counted, it may be counted the way you are but it also might not be. For instance, the standard holidays that you list do not come out of my PTO pool, which is the number of days that I was told it was when I was hired. The result being I have those days plus those five, plus the day after Thanksgiving, as time off, I just don't get to pick when those last six days are used.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by webo on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:56PM (#13303889)
15 days is 3 weeks.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by dasil003 on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:57PM (#13303903)
Isn't 15 days 3 weeks?
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by ozgkrc on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:11PM (#13304043)
Not necessarily. In my current industry if you don't work for maximum weekly work hours, saturday will be count as a work day if you literally work or not. So a week vacation is counted 6 days. Ps. Non-US
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by akoster on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:00PM (#13304481)
I formerly worked for an American subsidiary of a French company. When I told my friends that they gave every employee a minimum of 20 days off, their jaws dropped.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by ap3 on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:16AM (#13307123)
Plus holidays?
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by drjesusphd on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:56PM (#13303897)
15 days is 3 weeks of vacation...
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by jrs235 on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:55PM (#13303888)
15 days is 3 weeks.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by zadig on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:27PM (#13304689)
All this talk of 35 vs 45 hours a week makes me sad that medical residents are clocking 80 hours.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by querulous on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:20PM (#13306695)
that's just the theoretical max. residents in almost every program except family and maybe radiology are 100+
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by techsupporter on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:45PM (#13303793)
It's much easier to say "portions of America aren't necessarily like this" while also saying "portions of America very much are like this." I know because I used to live in one of the latter parts and now I live in one of the former. Just because your experience doesn't match the experience of the person to whom you are replying doesn't mean that person's perception is wrong.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by sidlls on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:45PM (#13303797)
America in aggregate most certainly is like that. There are cases where some or all of these things don't apply, but these aren't representative of a typical American worker's experience.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by cylinder on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:50PM (#13303839)
that's the culture of most of the country once you get out of Cali and northeast.

also, why should good living standards only apply to those with "elite jobs?" it's a rich country.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by acchow on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:52PM (#13303863)
Yeah, "America" is really a loose union of 50 states with diverse cultures and standards of living.

San Francisco is not like Indianapolis, which is not like Fargo.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by FabHK on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:45PM (#13312912)
You're right that the USA are more diverse than often acknowledged. However, they are still sufficiently clustered and distinct from, say, northern Europe (also comprising multiple states with diverse cultures etc.) that the discussion here is meaningful.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by typaux on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:54PM (#13304437)
you're really stretching the definition of the word diverse, there.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by rayiner on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:50PM (#13303835)
Describes the upper middle class DC suburb where I grew up to a T.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by wil421 on Monday January 02, 2017 @02:58PM (#13303916)
Seriously not all jobs are like these. Even part time jobs, it's up to you to find the right place to work.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by yequalsx on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:03PM (#13303967)
Your comment reinforces the point mvdwoord made. It ought not be up to a person to find the right job. It is up to society to enforce basic worker protections. Failure to do so leads to exploitation. The U.S. is not as nice a place to live as other rich nations.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by refurb on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:21PM (#13304646)
The U.S. is not as nice a place to live as other rich nations.

Funny that the waiting list to immigrate to the US can be decades long. I guess those people are just too stupid to know how bad it is in the US?

Also, I immigrated to the US from one of those other rich countries and I think quality of life is better in the US (but it's all a personal preference).

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by yequalsx on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:30PM (#13304716)
There are lots of countries in the world that are less well off than the U.S. I have not made any claims about living conditions in those countries being worse or better than the U.S. I've not made any claims about people coming from poorer countries being dumb or even people coming from richer countries to the U.S. being dumb.

I made the claim that the U.S. is not as nice a place to live as many other rich countries. Objectively speaking this is a true statement. The U.S. ranks lower on many measurements of living standards. Of course there are counterexamples in that some people have a better standard of living in the U.S. than they did in another country but we need to be mindful that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by zepto on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @12:12PM (#13310702)
Nope - nothing objective about it. I moved to the US from a European country with a supposedly higher standard of living. I worked longer hours here, experienced workplace bullying, and a whole host of things that would be illegal in my original country.

However I also experienced more freedom and diversity and was able to find a much more heterogenous community, as well as do things that were simply not allowed in my home country.

My life is much richer here and so the US is much nicer for me to live in.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by derekp7 on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:47PM (#13304820)
The US has one major thing going for it when it comes to immigration. Being a melting pot, it is much easier for someone to come in and find a community of people from their own country to make the transition much easier. That, and English is more common as a second language.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by throwaw-zxcvbn on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @04:17PM (#13313191)
> I guess those people are just too stupid to know how bad it is in the US?

US marketing is the best in the world, no doubt; maybe "mistaken" or "deceived" is more accurate than "stupid".

A few observations:

- people trying to immigrate to the USA come predominantly from desperately poor countries that are, indeed, not as nice a place to live. (People from those countries are also frequently denied tourist visa to the USA, btw.)

- among my fellow students at a good university in California that came from first world countries, only about a quarter decided to stay for longer than a few years.

- among Chinese that go to study in the USA, increasing numbers apparently choose to return to China.

> it's all a personal preference

To a large part it is.

Among expats that have options and have seen different continents, the US is more of middling choice, I'd think, but for some people it just clicks and they love it. (And NY is in a different category, anyway.)

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by semi-extrinsic on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:30PM (#13304713)
Is the waiting list of people wanting to immigrate from other rich countries really decades long?
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:47PM (#13304826)
It's not. Immigrants from first-world nations get fast tracked through their green card and naturalization process because the quotas aren't exhausted as rapidly as those for poorer nations.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by ap3 on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:18AM (#13307129)
Yes, they should all switch their applications to Switzerland and reach for the swiss dream.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by MichaelScarn on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:27PM (#13304174)
Out of curiosity, what are these other "rich nations" you are referring to? Always open to new places to look at besides the U.S.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by yequalsx on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:44PM (#13304331)
Japan, Canada, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Lichtenstein, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Iceland, Findland.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by jblow on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:19PM (#13304632)
I know several people who have emigrated from some of the above countries to the USA, because running a small business is extremely painful (see for example France).

If you think about companies as "us versus them", where "us" is workers and "them" is giant faceless monolithic corporations, then your idea that enforcing worker protections is a high priority might make sense.

But most companies are small. I run a software company ... I am just a guy trying to get by, who now in addition to the normal-person's burden of making my life go, has to also make a company go, and that company provides jobs for 10-12 people.

If you make my situation much harder than it is, the company would cease to exist or would downscale to 2-4 people, shedding the majority of the jobs. I am not a faceless corporation, I am just a guy who wants to get interesting things built. My little company is certainly not set up to "exploit workers", especially not on an industrial scale.

Now, paraxoically, if you add a lot more friction to what needs to happen to run a business (regulation around hiring, firing, invoicing, etc), then people like me drop out, and then what you mostly have left is the larger companies who do want to exploit workers because that is just kind of how larger companies work. Plus then you lose all the innovation / energy / economic activity that comes from smaller companies. It maybe seems like not the best idea. (If it is, how come Silicon Valley is not in France?)

As an investor, I fund a small French company and I have seen some of the crap they have to deal with just because they have a handful of employees. It makes me very glad I don't live in France.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by yequalsx on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:39PM (#13304782)
I don't see things in terms of workers vs. employers. I see things in terms of what is morally right and what is good for society. People should not feel forced to come to work when sick. People should not be forced to work while on vacation or pressured to not use their vacation. People should not have their access to healthcare dependent on their employer.

Go to reddit/r/personalfinance and you'll read lots of stories of people in shit jobs being taken advantage of by their employer. A society that allows people without money/education to be exploited is not a good one. In the U.S., from my perspective, we have a "I've got mine, fuck you" society. I'm not exploited at my job and I have a very comfortable existence. However, many of my fellow countrymen are not so fortunate.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by flukus on Monday January 02, 2017 @07:00PM (#13305528)
What about the other burdens you don't have to worry about in these countries like healthcare for employees?

Also, those restrictions on firing may be giving you a lot more potential employees. Changing jobs is a risk and if you were able to fire them after a week then that would be a major financial setback for them.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by tptacek on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @11:37AM (#13310335)
One thing I think a lot of people in business agree about is that we should adopt a more European approach (the Swiss approach is particularly good) to healthcare. You're right: the American approach to health care is a disaster for small employers.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by jblow on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @12:50PM (#13311112)
I agree ... it doesn't make any sense to me that an employer should have anything to do with supplying healthcare to employees. It just makes the system more complicated. I'd be happy with simplifying that out.

But this doesn't seem to be nearly enough to tip the balance in terms of operating a business overall ... I consistently hear from people how much it sucks to operate a small business in Europe. I don't see what's wrong in principle with having worker protections kick in at a certain company size, but that doesn't seem to be popular.

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by Tomte on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @01:40PM (#13311701)
Most worker protection laws in Germany only kick in when you've got a certain number of employees. I'm too lazy to look up the number, but it's small, single-digit I think.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by tptacek on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @03:14PM (#13312634)
Which, in tech industry terms, means "almost immediately".
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by fjrieiekd on Monday January 02, 2017 @10:15PM (#13306406)
In IT, Canada is pretty good, too, and scores higher than the US on some business indicators. There is probably more paperwork involved since there are no LLCs so you'd need a corp, but it's very manageable with an accountant's help. I also haven't heard of patent trolls or lawsuits being a problem, which is something that would scare me if I lived in the US.

Of course, if your business is in maple syrup or something else with heavy government intervention, then your experience will likely be quite different. :)

Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by zepto on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @12:00PM (#13310557)
You are right - people should not choose their own jobs - the government should determine people's needs and assigned a job to them.
Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by c0nducktr on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:59PM (#13304919)
A lot of people have shit jobs in America. That's their point.
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Re:Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy... by sctb on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:45PM (#13304344)