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Re:Neurodiversity by astrange on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:47AM (#13295477)
Everyone always wants to prevent cures for autism, but no one ever suggests inventing something that gives people autism.

(It was sort of a plot point in a Vernor Vinge novel. And Brave New World?)

Re:Neurodiversity by api on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:05AM (#13296115)
Problem is there is autism like (maybe) Einstein or Tesla and then there is autism where the child can't communicate or adapt to any form of human social interaction or contact. The former is neurodiversity, the latter a debilitating disease.

These are not the same thing and need different terms.

Re:Neurodiversity by rntz on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:21AM (#13296166)
Is there any evidence that they have different underlying causes or are otherwise fundamentally distinct rather than one simply being an extreme case of the other? (Honest question; I'm not familiar with the literature here.)

Or, even if they were in some sense fundamentally the same, is your argument that their effects are so practically different that they ought to be called by distinct names anyway?

Re:Neurodiversity by mercer on Monday January 02, 2017 @05:01AM (#13300224)
Asperger's used to be classified separately but is now considered part of the autism spectrum. That said, I don't think this was done primarily because of a consensus over there being just one 'fundamental type' of autism.

As I understand it, there isn't even a consensus on any theory of what autism fundamentally is. Some theories try to explain the social issues as a lack of Theory Of mind, but these theories don't cover the many other symptoms typical of autism. One more recent theory ('Intense Worlds') does present a 'fundamental' explanation for all/most symptoms, but AFAIK it's not well-accepted or supported by evidence (yet), and the fact that it explains so much is also considered a drawback (too vague / overfitting / whatever the term is).

> Or, even if they were in some sense fundamentally the same, is your argument that their effects are so practically different that they ought to be called by distinct names anyway?

I've noticed that there seems to be a movement in treatment approach that focuses on treating individual symptoms without focusing too much on the overarching 'labels'. In my experience it's been a very nice, down to earth approach, and it strikes me as more measurable too. This approach strikes me as particularly useful for autism because there's so much variation between different autists and the particular symptoms they exhibit.

Re:Neurodiversity by kosma on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:47AM (#13296242)
The recent developments of DSM-5 and ICD-11 show the opposite: decades of research failed to show any scientifically valid distinction between functional and non-functional autism. That's why they are being conflated into a single "autism spectrum disorder" category.
Re:Neurodiversity by bbarn on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:20PM (#13296347)
Those books exist as a method for billing insurance. The DSM only recently (1983) stopped considering homosexuality a diagnosis.

As a result we're hearing the phrase "somewhere on the spectrum" for any number of behaviors we don't see fitting the norm, and the reality of autism is not this "beautiful mind" scenario for many, but instead a crippling illness like the AP mentions. They are definitely not the same thing to the people who live with them.

The article is completely centered around the media image that autism creates geniuses, and that's a dangerous, misleading idea at best. The reality of living with it is usually much more ugly. Children who often become grown adults who can't make connections between cause and effect violently lashing out, throwing feces, biting care givers, screaming, screaming, and more screaming.

We should absolutely keep looking for ways to prevent and try to treat/cure it, and not act like everything is fine and great and accept it as diversity, for the sake of those who can't live normally.

Re:Neurodiversity by throwaway876543 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @04:09PM (#13297367)
As someone who falls in the "Beautiful Mind" end of the spectrum I find it insulting and abhorrent that people would do anything OTHER than cure us if they could.

Beneath superficial success and contribution, my life is a nonstop Munchian scream. I find it less insulting when people say everyone on the spectrum should be exterminated, than when people say some of us should be allowed to continue existing because our particular end of the spectrum happens to write pretty code / invent pretty theorems / etc.

Re:Neurodiversity by euyyn on Monday January 02, 2017 @05:09AM (#13300258)
On the other hand, I've met high-functioning autists that feel offended at the idea that people want to cure them. My cousin is on the "very crippled side" of the spectrum, so I'd give anything for a cure. So I guess if the person can understand the concept, it should be their own call.
Re:Neurodiversity by jessriedel on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:20PM (#13296351)
No, differences of degree are still scientifically valid. The statement is just that the symptoms don't have a multimodal distribution.
Re:Neurodiversity by wbl on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:35AM (#13296204)
They are the same thing, just as someone with a slight sniffle and someone with a sinus infection can both have a cold, and there are lots of places in between. We've also gotten a lot better at treatment: a significant fraction of children with large language delays end up living independently.
Re:Neurodiversity by nabla9 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:46PM (#13296963)
An illustrated transcript of a talk presented at the First Biennial Conference on Induc ed Humanoid Subspecies Peter Watts, Ph.D. FizerPharm Evoconsumables

http://rifters.com/blindsight/vampires.htm

http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/VampireDomestication.pdf

Re:Neurodiversity by SonOfLilit on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:08AM (#13296123)
I think you're talking about Distress by Greg Egan? Was the book about the announcement of a Theory of Everything on an artificial island?
Re:Neurodiversity by teraflop on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:22PM (#13296359)
Pretty sure OP was referring to A Deepness in the Sky.
Re:Neurodiversity by SonOfLilit on Sunday January 01, 2017 @04:37PM (#13297512)
I'm very surprised that two authors that are commonly confused with each other would make a secondary plot point about the same subject that is very weakly related to their main interests.
Re:Neurodiversity by astrange on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:08PM (#13298791)
Yes, but I didn't want to spoil it.
Re:Neurodiversity by rntz on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:18AM (#13296159)
This isn't as inconsistent as it seems. People would probably also be equally uncomfortable with both the idea of "editing" an embryo's genome to make it light-skinned, and the inverse idea of editing it to make it dark-skinned.
Re:Neurodiversity by yummyfajitas on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:07PM (#13296300)
Why are people uncomfortable with this?

While it's not important enough for genetic engineering on it's own, I'd probably edit my children to be darker. Having spent a few days on the beach in Thailand, the genetic inferiority of my own fair skin is quite visible and painful.

Re:Neurodiversity by up_so_floating on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:13PM (#13296320)
Your body evolved skin to suit an environment other than a Thai beach. I would not consider that genetic inferiority.
Re:Neurodiversity by jessriedel on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:29PM (#13296388)
Pale skin is thought to have evolved as a rapid (last ~5k years) and crude adaptation to avoid vitamin D deficiency shortly after farming was developed and allowed non-animal-based diets at the very high latitudes of northern Europe.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved...

It is reasonable to think that there the significant drawbacks associated with that hacked-together solution are no longer necessary because modern diets easily give adequate vitamin D.

Re:Neurodiversity by Tycho on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:17PM (#13296832)
So you're saying pale skin is a "hacked together" solution but modern vitamin supplements are not?
Re:Neurodiversity by jessriedel on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:27PM (#13296883)
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Re:Neurodiversity by duckingtest on Sunday January 01, 2017 @03:10PM (#13297076)
What does it have with skin color? Just limit the sun for two or three days until you tan, no sunburns after that. It's not like Thais are black. Compare:

https://pixabay.com/p-199674/?no_redirect

https://tonycavanagh.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/5005.jpg

Hardly a big difference. For genetic modification, the best solution is to increase range of tanning rather than changing the constant. It's already possible to get black skin [0] with eg. melanotan-2, so it's not that big of a change.

[0] http://imgur.com/a/I428E

Re:Neurodiversity by yummyfajitas on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:59PM (#13298134)
Perhaps I can chemically supplement myself to have the same powers that my African and Indian friends are born with. Why wouldn't I want my children to be born with that power?

Similarly, I'd like them to be born intelligent and naturally athletic.

Re:Neurodiversity by duckingtest on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:20PM (#13298454)
Power to be D3 deficient? [0] Do you have some inferiority complex? It's objectively better to have white skin that can tan instead of a darker one. It's always possible to cover from the sun. Only disadvantage: in sunny climates, ~4x higher risk of skin cancer, but the absolute risk is still a minuscule ~25/100k.

"It is evident that as much as 69%-82% of the South Asian populations in India had 25(OH)D levels in plasma less than the minimum acceptable levels of 20 ng/ml"

Skin colors evolved when most people were outside for the entire day. Now the opposite is true.

[0] http://www.pjms.com.pk/issues/octdec208/article/reviewarticl...

Re:Neurodiversity by euyyn on Monday January 02, 2017 @05:00AM (#13300221)
> until you tan

Not all of us have your superpower :) I've managed to tan 1/32 of my summers.

Re:Neurodiversity by krapp on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:22PM (#13296362)
> Why are people uncomfortable with this?

Some aspects of cultural, ethnic and religious identity are associated with and expressed by genetic factors like skin color.

For African Americans, just to give an example, the premise of "editing" children to be "whiter" might appear to enable racial genocide.

It doesn't apply only to skin color - some deaf people would consider genetically engineering away deafness an attack on "deaf culture."

Re:Neurodiversity by yummyfajitas on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:33PM (#13296410)
Normally "genocide" is considered bad because it results in living people being killed. I think we can all agree that killing a living person against their will is bad.

But with what you describe as "genocide," not a single person is harmed. To me, an African American person has the same intrinsic value as a white person or anyone else. Therefore, I can't see any particular reason why I should care if we have more or fewer African Americans in the world.

I'm familiar with the argument made by deaf people. But those advocates never seem to address the reversal argument; why shouldn't we also produce new deaf people (e.g. by sedating some children and painlessly puncturing their eardrums) in pursuit of this goal?

Re:Neurodiversity by krapp on Sunday January 01, 2017 @01:57PM (#13296760)
Bear in mind that many people consider abortion to be murder even when the people it "kills" only exist in the theoretical future.

It's not a rational way of thinking, but it is common.

Re:Neurodiversity by drdeca on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:45PM (#13296960)
I believe the usual argument is that the person already is a person, not that they could become one.
Re:Neurodiversity by yummyfajitas on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:40PM (#13298082)
The people who consider abortion to be murder consider it to be an actual, non-potential baby. Thus, killing that baby is murder.

Your argument is merely a straw man that left wing types smugly create and then dismiss to portray those they disagree with as stupid.

Re:Neurodiversity by cb18 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @03:16PM (#13297102)
Skin color is a relatively minor component of race, race describes the clustering of a whole host of traits and characteristics in a group of individuals.

Yellow-skinned Africans would still be Africans, purple-skinned Asians would still be Asians, and green-skinned Europeans would still be Europeans.

Re:Neurodiversity by krapp on Sunday January 01, 2017 @03:47PM (#13297249)
Skin color is a minor component of the actual makeup of race - but most of what "race" is, is political, economic and cultural. And skin color is a major factor in that regard, because it's an obvious way to discriminate between in and out groups.

When Obama was first running, there were discussions about whether or not he was "black enough" to really represent African American culture as President. Part of that was because of his upbringing (because, unfortunately, there is the perception that being educated, well spoken and wealthy is somehow antithetical to "true blackness") but part of it was the lightness of his skin color. It would have likely been easier for some people to accept his "white" background if he'd been physically darker.

You yourself correlated European with "white" in an earlier (probably still flagged) comment, so you know that references to skin color can seem intrinsic to many things to which it doesn't really apply.

Re:Neurodiversity by philwelch on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:48PM (#13296969)
Having spent a week in Cabo I agree with you, but having spent the entire rest of the year in Seattle I need all the Vitamin D I can get.
Re:Neurodiversity by cb18 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @03:08PM (#13297069)
I'd probably edit my children to be darker. Having spent a few days on the beach in Thailand, the genetic inferiority of my own fair skin is quite visible and painful.

Is this like reductio ad absurdum of PC signalling? Where do you spend the other 362 days of the year? In an environment that fair skin provides advantages for things like vitamin D production perhaps?

Re:Neurodiversity by yummyfajitas on Sunday January 01, 2017 @06:47PM (#13298101)
I spend the rest of the year in places that are not Norway or Sweden - places where even the darkest African or Tamil does not suffer vitamin D deficiency.

I find it very entertaining to be accused of PC signalling a few days after being accused of white supremacy.

Re:Neurodiversity by harryh on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:32PM (#13296404)
There is an Arthur C. Clarke short story called Reunion in which Aliens send a message indicating that humans are actually descendants of alien colonists and that the aliens have finally found a cure for white skin.
Re:Neurodiversity by drdeca on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:48PM (#13296970)
, but we can already do that I think?

Like, I think taking some hormones can make one's skin produce more melanin .

Idk if one has to keep taking it or not to keep it up, but from the pictures it looked fairly thorough.

Re:Neurodiversity by harryh on Sunday January 01, 2017 @07:51PM (#13298336)
TBH I have no idea. Just mentioned the Arthur C. Clarke as an amusing related anecdote.
Re:Neurodiversity by drdeca on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:27AM (#13299807)
The technology might have been developed after he wrote it, idk.

Tbh I was also just mentioning what I mentioned because I thought it was amusing/interesting/novel or uh, thought it would look good to mention or something

What you mentioned was amusing

Re:Neurodiversity by ZeroGravitas on Sunday January 01, 2017 @07:22AM (#13295535)
Aren't those functionally the same thing?

It reminds me of a debugging technique I sometimes use, to prove to myself I understand a complex issue I try to make it worse. If I can then I almost certainly understand how to fix it too.

Re:Neurodiversity by nikanj on Sunday January 01, 2017 @07:41AM (#13295561)
A reliable repro is 98% of solving the problem.
Re:Neurodiversity by jessriedel on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:38PM (#13296430)
GP comment is drawing out an ethical tension, not a technical one.
Re:Neurodiversity by gcr on Sunday January 01, 2017 @04:01PM (#13297325)
Ted Chiang wrote a short story, "The Evolution of Human Science", about that idea.

If I recall, the main premise was that new parents could choose to give their children a neurodevelopmental drug that would cause vastly increased intellectual prowess at the cost of gradually losing their connection to human society to the point of indecipherability.

I think it was a bit heavy-handed. But maybe I'm not remembering the story correctly.