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Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by gumby on Thursday December 08, 2016 @12:59AM (#13128697)
Don't forget that the ARM's raw performance is much less than that of Intel. Intel (and Nvidia) have chosen a price-performance-point regime that makes sense right now on the desktop (what's left of it...quite a bit!) and server. They've completely ceded mobile to ARM/Imagination.

The two worlds occupy different regions of the price/performance/power cube.

Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by mtgx on Thursday December 08, 2016 @01:01AM (#13128706)
Not as low as you may think. In fact, the latest high-end ARM chips have reached parity with Macbook Air-type Intel chips, as well as with few year old Mac Pros:

https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/221881-apples-a9x-goes-he...

http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12939310/iphone-7-a10-fusi...

EDIT: And here's a demo by Microsoft for how Windows 10 would run on the Qualcomm chip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&feature=youtu.be

Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by gumby on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:20AM (#13128920)
I really want to switch away from Intel across the board but we are still far from there. And in fact you're not really disagreeing with my point: I said Intel & Nvidia are leading for raw power, but when you are looking at performance/watt, they are not as far ahead or even (depending) trail disastrously.

Intel doesn't seem to have it in their DNA to really focus on mobile across the board. They excel on process (Si node), no question. They have the highest performance CPUs with lots of superscalar, speculative, and multicore performance, and a lot of work going into internal bus architecture. If you don't care about power consumption they seem to be pretty much the only game in town.

And even on laptops, they have the rest of the infrastructure (advanced IO controllers etc) where ARM still noticeably lags. The numbers you cited were mobile chipsets vs the A9. Intel more than held its own, and these didn't get into multicore performance where most of the ARMs' performance rolls off dramatically. Yes, even Apple's. Those Intel mobile chips, much as I hate them, are more general case (see below).

And of course these days most of us care about power (not enough in the datacenter, but that day is coming soon as well). On that front ARM is great. But as I noticed above they don't get the multicore advantage Intel does. Now that doesn't matter as much on a tablet since you actually want to spend as little power energizing silicon as possible. Look at the asymmetry of the A9: a huge amount of the area goes to servicing graphics (kind of the weird descendent of the Alto in this way), less on dealing with multicore bus contention. Which is what you want on a tablet! But it's less useful when, say, you're running a CAD app.

And other design houses have found other points in the space: Q'comm is the only other performance leader in ARM (mediatek etc are going for lower power/fast design) and qcomm parts are notoriously power hungry too (oops). Apple is the only one who has high performance and good power consumption -- but for an execution mix that they control closely, not for the general case!

Interestingly NVIDIA suffers from the same thing, but has managed to cleverly switch into a parallel track (ML with GPGPUs) which is currently also power consumption insensitive and can pay not just a higher W for performance but $ too.

I can't wait for the day to arrive, but no, I don't believe that day is yet nigh.

PS: this post reflects some work I did specifically in this area, unfortunately proprietary to the organization who paid for it.

Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by willtim on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:53AM (#13129021)
To be honest, likely Arm is fast enough for most people. My experience of Intel's mobile hardware is that it is noisy, hot and overpriced. I only browse the web and edit text on my laptop, yet I have to suffer fan noise and heat whenever various background processes decide they need lots of CPU (e.g. windows update). I never used to consider alternatives because Intel had great Linux support, this isn't true anymore with regard to their mobile parts.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by fsiefken on Thursday December 08, 2016 @07:06AM (#13129824)
The mobile generation 7 'kaby lake' intel chip is fanless and cool, works perfectly, the atom 'cherry trail' processor lineup has the same advantage. Energy efficient and you still have binary compatibility with x86 windows programs. http://ark.intel.com/products/95449 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Atom_microproces...
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by einr on Thursday December 08, 2016 @03:54AM (#13129208)
whenever various background processes decide they need lots of CPU (e.g. windows update)

I'm not convinced this is Intel's fault.

It's anecdotal, but I do web browsing every day on a cheap, consumer-level HP laptop from 2007 with a Core 2 Duo, 2 GB of RAM and a big dumb mechanical HDD. I hardly ever hear the fan. Using Debian with XFCE and few unnecessary background processes.

Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by frik on Thursday December 08, 2016 @06:12AM (#13129633)
and you use an adblocker, only watch 480p videos, and have only five tabs at most openend - right?
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by gambiting on Thursday December 08, 2016 @03:13AM (#13129078)
That's just extremely poor engineering of 90% of windows laptop makers. Macs use intel CPUs and they are virtually inaudible unless you are playing games or transcoding videos.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by vetinari on Thursday December 08, 2016 @03:47AM (#13129181)
Try scrolling a facebook page on a MBP :) The fans are pretty at max.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by gambiting on Thursday December 08, 2016 @04:21AM (#13129288)
What? I'm writing this on a late 2008 MacBook Pro(yes, one with a 2.4GHz Core2Duo and 4GB of ram!), running latest Chrome and the fan might as well be off - if it's running, I genuinely can't hear it. I also have a 2012 MacBook Air, and the only time when I could hear the fan on that was when I foolishly tried playing Guild Wars 2.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by kalleboo on Thursday December 08, 2016 @06:02AM (#13129593)
I just spent 60 seconds scrolling up and down on Facebook like a madman, no issues.

This is with Safari though which easily has the best UI performance out of all the browsers.

Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by toyg on Thursday December 08, 2016 @04:12AM (#13129265)
Wat? You must have one of those entry-level models with 4gb of ram. My 2012 mbpr never starts fans unless the gpu is taxed.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by vetinari on Thursday December 08, 2016 @04:17AM (#13129279)
Early 2015, 16 GB RAM.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by drvdevd on Thursday December 08, 2016 @06:41AM (#13129720)
I had a late-2015, 16GB of RAM mbp, and it also would spin up pretty high and get noisy, especially when using Google Chrome. It would also have some kernel thread crash during suspend, causing it to come on in my bag and get extremely hot.

A complete reinstallation of the OS via a USB installer seemed to mostly solve the issues somewhat, seemingly making the crashes mostly stop and the heat/fan profile more "normal" (just stumbled upon this). I guess I suspect ACPI weirdness...

Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by sliken on Thursday December 08, 2016 @07:30AM (#13129893)
Friend has similar behavior on his older MBP. Turns out all the vents between the keyboard and the display (directly adjacent to the hinge) were filled with dust.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by gambiting on Friday December 09, 2016 @03:55AM (#13137560)
I really suspect theirs are caked with dust, because Macs will sooner downclock their CPUs massively rather than spin the fans up during normal use.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by jackvalentine on Thursday December 08, 2016 @05:26AM (#13129494)
Something is very wrong with it.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by vetinari on Thursday December 08, 2016 @05:42AM (#13129552)
Maybe Firefox and all those auto-playing videos.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by addicted on Thursday December 08, 2016 @06:43AM (#13129732)
Macs also thermal throttle a lot. Apple opts for quieter machines over exposing the entire raw power of the CPU like a lot of their competitors do.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by digi_owl on Thursday December 08, 2016 @06:54AM (#13129775)
In large part because Jobs had a pathological hatred for fans. The Apple II used to have problems with thermal buckling of the logic board because Jobs insisted on there being no fans. And the later Mac Cube ran into similar problems (never mind that oversensitive capacitive power switch).
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by curt15 on Thursday December 08, 2016 @09:21AM (#13130390)
Macs are also notorious for running hot.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by Oletros on Thursday December 08, 2016 @04:40AM (#13129347)
Tell that to my MBA late 2010 since Maverick
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by gambiting on Thursday December 08, 2016 @04:45AM (#13129360)
Like I said above - I have a late 2008 MBP running latest chrome + El Capitan and I've literally never heard the fan on that machine - and I use it daily.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by Oletros on Thursday December 08, 2016 @04:54AM (#13129400)
And I have a 2010 MBA and I hear it every day.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by therein on Thursday December 08, 2016 @05:09AM (#13129437)
Don't forget IntelliJ.
Re:Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10 by fulafel on Thursday December 08, 2016 @07:13AM (#13129849)
Are you talking about ARM the architecture or ARM the vendor? By far the fastest ARM compatible chips are made by Apple who isn't selling them to anyone else, so they're not relevant to the Windows 10 discussion. ARM the architecture isn't any slower or faster than x86.