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Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by newhere420 on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:33AM (#13006089)
Or alternatively, consider that other people may not have the same priorities as yourself. I say this as someone who cooks and prepares most meals from raw, fresh ingredients: it is time consuming, tiring and often boring. If you're a two parent household with very limited time, and you have to choose between spending that time with your children or spending it cooking - why is the virtuous choice necessarily to cook?

To make tasty, varied, high quality food is not even always as cheap and healthy as one might imagine. Fresh ingredients go bad quickly, and can sometimes be difficult to source, so you have to plan carefully. Many of us live in small apartments with limited space for preparing food and small refrigerators. We work long days, and both adults need to work now. Saving time on planning, buying ingredients, cooking and washing dishes is very appealing.

Why do many people think food should be immune from innovation? We have replaced manual clothes washing with automated washing machines, most people now take their car to a mechanic rather than mending it themselves.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by codingdave on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:54AM (#13006287)
Why is it a choice between spending time with children and cooking? I use shopping as a chance to take a kid with me and get some time together. They help me prep the food and cook it, too.

Sure, when they were babies and toddlers, it wasn't practical. But I've found that both your life, and the life of your children is better when you integrate them into the work that needs done and the life you want to live, and do not treat spending time with them as a separate activity.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by athenot on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:57AM (#13006333)
> But I've found that both your life, and the life of your children is better when you integrate them into the work that needs done and the life you want to live, and do not treat spending time with them as a separate activity.

This!

We have so much fragmentation on roles already, it is increasingly harder to find time to do things with our children, for both teaching and spending time with them. Cooking is that one thing that can build this relationship, teaching (and entrusting) the child to deal with potentially dangerous tools yet yielding a result that is immediately appreciable.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by newhere420 on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:07AM (#13006443)
Surely that depends on the age of the child, what you're cooking, and the size/accessibility of your kitchen?

Personally, I live with a kitchen that can't reasonably fit more than one person, and all the counters are inaccessible to children.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by codingdave on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:15AM (#13006499)
Yes, of course, tiny children are limited in how much they can participate. But not as much as you might think at first glance. We built platforms for them to stand on, so as soon as they were on their feet, they could access the counters. And we could slide the platforms away when we were working with anything that might harm them. As they grow up, simple footstools work, then eventually they are tall enough to work with you just as an adult would.

Likewise, when they are tiny, you don't really give them knives or anything. But they can see what is going on, you can talk to them. They learn quickly. My kids have been making their own lunches since they were 6, starting with simple thigns like sandwiches or nachos. My 10 year old frequently cooks breakfast for the family -- eggs, pancakes, waffles, etc. My 8 year old does simpler things - grilled cheese, mostly.

Give kids a chance - they may surprise you.

As far as working in small spaces where people do not fit, that does sound like more of a challenge. But parenting is full of problem-solving opportunities.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by newhere420 on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:45AM (#13006754)
I am glad you have found a way to incorporate your children into your lives in this way. And I would hope many parents attempt to do the same thing. When growing up, I cooked from a young age (about 7) simply because both of my parents worked two jobs, so if I didn't cook, I wouldn't get fed.

But I think many people lose perspective on this. There are a large number of people who, once they have finished their long hours at work, finished their >1hr commute home, washed the clothes, taken the kids to their activities, picked them up from school, cleaned the house, helped with the homework, etc. find that they do not have time to dedicate to cooking. Often, these are poorer people, they may live a long distance from a good supermarket, and simply buying fresh groceries is a challenge.

Knowing people in this situation personally, they feel extremely guilty and regretful over the fact they can't make their kids nutritious home cooked meals every day. People not in that situation often don't realise that buying a freezer full of frozen meals and a cupboard full of tinned pasta/beans is often more cost effective than trying to plan buying fresh food such that it doesn't spoil - given the inherent variability in how long fresh food tends to last. And arguably, more importantly to individuals with cashflow issues, is the stability. When you buy that frozen Mac & Cheese dinner, you know that $1 is going to feed your child for an evening. And that meal is going to cost the same next week, and the week after. It's simpler to budget that way. If you buy locally sourced, organic head of lettuce at the farmers market - it might last two days, it might last two weeks - there's not really any way of knowing.

I know many people who take great pleasure in cooking with the family at the weekend, but don't have time in the week. So from Monday to Friday, they live from prepackaged frozen food, takeouts. Innovation in this space would be welcome - but simply telling people to "make time" to cook isn't going to change anything. Making Mon-Fri cheaper and healthier might make room for higher quality food at the weekend, though.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by nemo44x on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:50AM (#13006253)
> Why do many people think food should be immune from innovation?

Food has been innovated on massively over the last 70 years. From the way it is produced to shipped and stored and finally how it is prepared. The industrialization of food has produced instant meals, TV dinners, fast food and led a mono agriculture policy.

A lot of what is labeled as a particular type of food isn't even what it says it is. Look at a loaf of bread sitting on the shelf. It will have 20+ ingredients! Many of them synthetic or unnatural. And it's not just these things added but the process of how it is made that it makes it "not bread".

And that's just the start. The way animals are raised and pumped full of drugs because of this method of raising them. The packages of pre-made food that is full of a list of who knows what to add color and consistency and preservation.

The food industry has been plenty innovating. Between packaged and ready made food and fast food restaurants selling inexpensive meals the innovation is there and widely accepted. The problem is a lot of this stuff is bad for people and responsible for many health problems today and honestly it mainly tastes awful (that parts an opinion to be sure, but it's no wonder that "American food" has such a low opinion around the world).

The food industry had a revolution and it optimized for low price and convenience as people were sold a message that planning, buying ingredients, cooking and washing dishes is a hassle and not something to be proud of and to enjoy. I live in Manhattan and don't have much space but I can cook without hassle. If I had kids I'd be cooking with them and teaching them the value of it.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by TeMPOraL on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:56AM (#13006317)
Innovation in food manufacturing != innovation in end-user food preparation. Those are two different things.

> Look at a loaf of bread sitting on the shelf. It will have 20+ ingredients! Many of them synthetic or unnatural. And it's not just these things added but the process of how it is made that it makes it "not bread".

How "synthetic" they are depends on a bread (toast bread vs. normal, etc.), but a reminder - "bread" is not an atomic ingredient; even the most "natural" one would have a bunch of them on the label. Also, note the ingredients of a perfectly natural banana:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--o2mC_ak...

--

The point being, many people - myself included - consider preparing many of our meals a chore, not a pleasure. Preparing a fancy dinner every now and then is cool, but having to do that every day cuts into free time we'd like to use for something more interesting. I don't see why so many people have a problem with that.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by david-given on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:03AM (#13006408)
I agree; all those things were added to the bread to make it better --- it keeps longer, is cheaper to make, maintains its nutritional value, etc.

It's just that a lot of us these days have different values than the people who designed the bread (and a lot of the people who continue to buy the bread), which means that what we think makes good bread is not the same thing as what they think makes good bread.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by TeMPOraL on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:11AM (#13006470)
That's another point. A lot of those nasty bad no-good "chemicals" added to food are improvements that ensure the food keeps longer, is tastier, has more nutritional value, etc. I really hate this assumption it's some big evil conspiracy out to poison people through food. It isn't. People used to be very happy about those additions in the past, when they could relate to more "natural" food and its problems.

> It's just that a lot of us these days have different values than the people who designed the bread (and a lot of the people who continue to buy the bread), which means that what we think makes good bread is not the same thing as what they think makes good bread.

That's a fine point, but then again a lot of us these days have the same values as those who designed the bread. Why are we being pushed so hard to reject them, with arguments mostly bordering on chemophobia?

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by nemo44x on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:30AM (#13006627)
Why do you assume others think there is an "evil conspiracy"? Of course there isn't. Food is a business and profits will be put ahead of nutrition.

Look, I like the fact that people don't starve. That poor people can get the nutrients and vitamins they need. Everything in the industrial food revolution was designed to make food cheaper for consumers. But there's a cost to that too. And early onset diabetes, heart failure for people in their 40's and other health issues are only part of the price.

It's not chemophobia - at least not for me. It's the breaking of the marketing we've been sold that cooking is hard, that cooking is very time consuming and that prepared industrialized food is just as good for you. As for the bread example, it isn't bread. And it could only be labeled bread after these manufactured lobbied government and the FDA in the 1940's to allow it to be called bread.

Yeah, there's a lot of snobbery around slow food and natural food. A lot of that is class distinction I assume and it's annoying. But I don't think you need to buy that kind of stuff. Get the vegetables that aren't organic. Buy meat that isn't "free range". But by all means buy quality ingredients and learn to cook for yourself a couple meals a week.

>People used to be very happy about those additions in the past, when they could relate to more "natural" food and its problems.

This makes no sense at all. People were happy for the convenience and sold the lie that cooking is hard and a waste of time when you can just buy this processed food and eat it right now.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by david-given on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:07PM (#13008671)
> That's a fine point, but then again a lot of us these days have the same values as those who designed the bread. Why are we being pushed so hard to reject them, with arguments mostly bordering on chemophobia?

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I think the stuff's important to have. The fact that nutritious, long-lasting bread of unprecedented quality is so astonishingly cheap and ubiquitous is a miracle of the modern age.

My personal theory is that it's a combination of conspicuous consumption ("but supermarket bread is for poor people"), plus a deliberate attempt to push more expensive products with higher profit margins --- mass produced bread is now so cheap that the margins must be tiny. The cheapest loaf of Chorleywood Process bread from Tesco (one of the big UK supermarkets) is £0.40, which is about 50 US cents:

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258742688

Meanwhile, go upmarket to the equivalent instore bakery loaf, and you're spending a pound:

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=255809172

That's baked from frozen dough in the supermarket itself rather than cooked at a central bakery, which is going to legitimately push the price up, but it's still over twice the price for what is nutritionally the same stuff (compare the two tables above). Even the ingredients lists are almost identical. I think it's still Chorleywood Process, too, although probably from a different batch of dough...

(I'm a bread junkie. I like nice bread, and am willing to pay for it; and you know what? Those one pound loaves above are pretty good. I wouldn't buy the prepackaged loaves, though; they've been sliced, and nothing ruins a loaf more than preslicing it. One day I want to see a loaf of really cheap supermarket bread, unsliced, straight out of the oven. I suspect it would be pretty good.)

(Chorleywood Process, BTW: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13670278)

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by nemo44x on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:19AM (#13006533)
Look at what is inside it and what it does to you and how it is manufactured. Look at a load of Wonder Bread. It used refined white flour with no bran or germ - the healthy parts. Why would they do this? Because it gives the bread a longer shelf life - what you consider a feature. You've sacrificed any bit of nutrition so it keeps on the shelf longer.

Sugar is in it. Sugar. In bread. As if the white flour starch isn't bad enough for you as it turns into sugar but then actual sugar is added. No wonder diabetes is such a problem.

Where's the fiber? Well, that's added later and in measly amounts so it can actually be called "bread".

There is hardly any nutrition in this bread. And you admitted you didn't even know that. It was designed to be profitable - not in any way be nutritious.

"Make it better" - for who? The 4 years olds with diabetes?

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by TeMPOraL on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:26AM (#13006595)
You know that if you look for a bread recipe on-line, you'll find sugar as one of the ingredients? It's kind of used to make a normal bread.

I know "bread" is a broad term and some people swear by the dark "tastes like dried grain with glue" varieties. But others don't. Personally, I prefer "ISO standard" white bread. Not all food choices are made to optimize for perceived health value. Some are also made for taste.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by nemo44x on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:31AM (#13006641)
You are either a sadly ignorant person or a troll. Possibly both.
Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by newhere420 on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:25AM (#13006585)
Of course a lot of food innovation has occurred. Clearly, the silent majority are demanding convenience over health. But there is a strongly vocal segment of the population who think it should not have been - and they are very critical, and often demeaning toward those who have made different choices than themselves.

At risk of constructing a straw man, it does appear to be a widely aired view that we ought to go back to "all-natural" meals cooked from raw fresh, organic, non-GM ingredients. In my experience, vanishingly few people actually do this, because it actually is a hassle and doesn't fit well within our modern busy two working parent lifestyles. Indeed, within your own reply you treat the innovation within the food industry with disdain.

I agree that, often, food innovation has optimised for the wrong goals: strictly prioritising convenience over health, for example. But whether you like Soylent-related products or other innovations in food, it's astounding the number of people who are willing to publicly attack engineered food products simply because it's not natural enough for their preferences and lifestyle. But those same people do not care about the naturalness of all the other technology they use.

With convenience food, I believe the proverbial cat is out of the bag and there's no putting it back in. Short of a massive economic/technological disruption that gives adults in families as much free time as they used to have, it's quite unlikely we'll see a revolution in home cooking. Maybe Soylent and other engineered foods are actually healthier than living off takeouts and microwave meals - as many people do - and are worth investigating further, without overly harshly judging those who currently find themselves in situations where they can't find time to prepare home cooked meals every day.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by CmdrSprinkles on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:44AM (#13006196)
US, but I generally find that starch (rice, potatoes, etc) holds up for quite a while and meat can be bought in bulk and frozen, so that mostly leaves vegetables as the difficult item. And that can be resolved by buying frozen or canned for the most part.

As for family time: Why not both? My mother made it a point to have me hang out in the kitchen and help out and, as a result, I like cooking and know how to do things ranging from "What do I have left in the fridge?" to "Alright, let's make something fancy". Obviously having the kids use knives isn't smart until they are older, but just having them peel potatoes or hand you stuff is a good bonding experience. And, when they ARE older: you got yourself some cheap labor

And, to get back to the skillset thing: That really helps with saving time. I generally DON'T plan my meals (weekends when I am not out and dates are the only times I really use recipes). My food shopping is generally "What is on sale? Alright" and then I roll from there. And a lot of that goes down to being a kid and watching my mother figure out what was left in the fridge. Sometimes you make an awesome quiche or casserole. Sometimes you just throw some rice in a pot, saute some meat, and then throw a can of vegetables in near the end. And sometimes you are eating bologna and ramen.

Nobody sane is saying to go super all out or to never eat out/eat takeout/frozen food. But home cooked meals are generally healthier, a lot cheaper, and teach kids how to eat right and fend for themselves.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by marknutter on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:47AM (#13006229)
> As for family time: Why not both?

Because cooking isn't everyone's idea of a good time.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by CmdrSprinkles on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:56AM (#13006310)
And bath time, watching a bunch of uncoordinated kids flop around on a futbol field, and hearing chopsticks get butchered is?

That is kind of parenting. You put up with crap to teach your kids.

Also, cooking can be pretty fun. Again boils down to the kind of mentality you have and how you approach it.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by marknutter on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:04AM (#13006418)
I mean, sometimes it's fun to cook, but sometimes it isn't. We're not a big foodie family so it's just not a priority. I'm sure there's plenty of activities that we do that others see little to no joy or value in. It's a mistake to assume one's own preferences are superior to others'.
Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by CmdrSprinkles on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:15AM (#13006497)
And that is fine, but I think this thread and these kinds of sentiment show that it IS superior to teach your kids how to cook and to understand that it doesn't have to be a boring slog.

Because then, when they are adults, they won't be discouraged because "it is too hard to get all the ingredients" or "it takes too long" because they'll have a better understanding of how to just roll with it. Maybe they won't be making fancy dishes ,but they also will understand how to do a twenty minute meal.

Case in point: You seem to think you have to be a foodie (screw that word and everything about it) to cook with your kids.

Going back to the sports analogy: No one is saying to force your kid to live outdoors. But taking the time to throw a ball around or take them on a hike or whatever conditions them to associate physical activity with fun which, in turn, encourages them to do it on their own.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by randomgyatwork on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:42AM (#13006177)
Aren't all article suggesting an alternatives based on another set of priorities?

This is also targeted at people who are choosing fast food over home made food because they want to, not because they have to.

Innovation is great, but if you read the article it talks about many benefits to making food, I'd say the intangible benefits are the greatest, i.e., purpose and accomplishment.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by PetrolMan on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:55AM (#13006297)
As much as I would love to be able to cook homemade meals everyday, I simply don't have the time. That being said, I think that learning how to cook is important. There are so many things in life that people are unwilling to do for themselves because they've never learned how initially and now the bar seems too high. I'm not saying that we need to forgo innovation but I think that learning how to cook, or generally understanding how your car operates should be at least low level priorities even if you don't plan on using that knowledge on a daily basis. Drink Soylent if you want, but try baking a loaf of bread some time as well.
Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by 01Michael10 on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:39AM (#13006153)
Wait... You don't cook meals for your children but give them Soylent?

You talk about doing things with your kids. Sitting down with kids and eating a meal is an important family bonding time.

You analogies made no sense. The clothes and cars are get washed and fixed the same way. Soylent is NOT the same as eating real food.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by pavel_lishin on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:43AM (#13006186)
newhere420 didn't mention Soylent one way or the other.

If I had to guess - and I do - I'd wager that his family just orders in or goes out for dinner more than others. And as a new parent myself, I can completely understand.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by 01Michael10 on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:05AM (#13006421)
Fair point and rereading the OP post it was stated they do prepare most meals. I read it as they used to prepare most meals. If that is case they do prepare most meals what was the OP's point? No one said one had to prepare all their meals.

The title of the story should be changed... Liquid meals were mentioned but not Soylent specifically.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by pavel_lishin on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:21PM (#13007071)
> I read it as they used to prepare most meals.

I did, too, at first.

Re:Skip the Soylent, Make a Meal Instead by joe463369 on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:00PM (#13009621)
Is Soylent even an innovation? My cursory research suggests there are multiple nutrition drinks available. The NHS recommends several that seem to have been been tested more rigorously than Soylent appears to.