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Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by Klathmon on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:39PM (#12749284)
That's a really fucking shitty thing to do, and is gonna cause some pretty big waves IMO if they follow through with it.

The issues with not being able to modify your own stuff is already really shitty, but its not something that the average Joe really can understand easily, and even less care about it.

But not being able to USE your car for some things? That just screams easy headlines and it's a reason I might not get a Tesla in the future.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by djsumdog on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:57PM (#12749330)
The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high.

There is also the entire liability and planed obsolescent issues not being dealt with. Will Tesla support these cars forever? Will 10 year old models still get software updates?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sangnoir on Thursday October 20, 2016 @02:47AM (#12750182)
> The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles

People can already modify their car hardware in dangerous ways, yet no one is welding the hood shut. You may weld spikes on your car to keep prying eyes away if you wish, but when you inevitably impale someone, Ford will not be liable.

Why should software be treated differently? All Tesla has to do to avoid liability is to say "The vehicle was running firmware with aftermarket firmware installed by the owner". They won't even need to run diagnostics, they can simply look at the logs they collect.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by deanCommie on Thursday October 20, 2016 @06:50AM (#12751208)
Sorry, there is a fundamental difference with modification when you get into software, server-based logic, and machine learning.

It's a bit like when people used to modding their own hardware tools encounter a GPU or a RAM card that won't fit into a PCI slot, so they "cut it to fit", and then are surprised it doesn't work.

When you modify a car physically with spikes or to make more engine noise, or to have looser suspension you are dealing with isolated newtonian environments.

When you tweak software that involves massive machine learned models, you can cause absolutely unpredictable horrific consequences. There are good reasons to restrict this.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sinxoveretothex on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:14AM (#12750281)
> You may weld spikes on your car to keep prying eyes away if you wish, but when you inevitably impale someone, Ford will not be liable.

Because it will be obvious that it was modified, even to journalists, the public and a jury of your peers. Also the cops, who will arrest you for it.

But there is no such visibility for software.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sangnoir on Thursday October 20, 2016 @06:34AM (#12751127)
Expert witnesses exist for a reason - they will be able to answer the question whether the firmware was factory-installed or not.

> But there is no such visibility for software

Software modification has a lot of visibility, especially since Teslas log everything - why not log when new firmware was loaded? They could also checksum post-facto, but even that is not necessary: Tesla could implement something similar to Androids "fastboot oem unlock" option

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sinxoveretothex on Thursday October 20, 2016 @12:37PM (#12753851)
> Software modification has a lot of visibility, especially since Teslas log everything

What I mean by visibility is that you can't fudge it, that reality is plainly visible to all actors.

Income is not visible directly (although what one's house looks like for example is visible and is a good indication of income). If you meet a well-dressed guy in a Starbucks, you have no idea whether he's crippled with debt or whether he has so much money he doesn't know what to do with. And that's true regardless of the fact that income is regulated by the government, that banks keep records and all that.

Software is NOT visible in that sense: whether your microwave is running code that will make it explode when you type in 9999 or not, is not something that can be known by everyone but the first person who has access to the device, let alone the public who couldn't understand how to compare two hashes anyway.

As far as any third party is concerned, Tesla could just be faking logs and no one would know. Actually, you may not see it still, so imagine that say, GM, suddenly releases an autonomous car and it crashes. Do you trust them when they tell you that the logs say the driver was at fault?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by munin on Thursday October 20, 2016 @09:39AM (#12752044)
I guess the concern is that both sides will get expert witnesses with equally long CVs to make equally compelling arguments and then it's on the jury to decide which PhD they want to believe. Not sure how that helps.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by Klathmon on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:02PM (#12749351)
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.

Cars are already extremely risky to modify, but it is still possible (and it's even a protected consumer right). I can go out and accidentally cut the breaks on my own car while changing the tire, if it causes harm, we already have a system in place to deal with it.

Why should software be any different?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by tcpekin on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:40PM (#12749607)
I would argue that cars are not extremely risky to modify mechanically - the parts are usually large, almost everything you'd want to do on your car has youtube videos and forum threads with people doing the exact same procedure, and you have pretty immediate feedback if you really messed anything up/the car is inoperable.

I don't think that is the same for self-driving software if you were allowed to hack it. It is easy to test if your brakes work, I think it may be harder to test modified software with the huge number of interactions it must deal with.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by lisivka on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:21AM (#12750306)
It's not a your business unless you will be hit by such car.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by hash-set on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:13PM (#12749533)
Oh baloney. Have you any experience with current car tech? It's pretty freaking basic, all things considered. Anyone who codes enterprise applications for a living can deal with a car's ECU, including ABS, traction control, all of it. The autonomous stuff is "scary AI" but if it's not open sourced, I don't want it.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by bsder on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:11PM (#12749527)
> The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high.

Tough. We have liability law to cover that.

You'll be screaming to allow modification when your trip is 20 minutes longer because a bunch of rich assholes paid Tesla to route all traffic around their neighborhood.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by hash-set on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:11PM (#12749528)
There is a fallacy of "appeal to authority" here. If it's my property, I'll do as I please with it. Risks? Look at the risks we face with DRM of all kinds and how are rights are reduced and eliminated for the sake of corporate profits.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:31PM (#12749420)
> But not being able to USE your car for some things? That just screams easy headlines and it's a reason I might not get a Tesla in the future.

Its your car. It's Tesla software. You don't own it, just like you don't own any of the other commercial software you use.

I can't really find fault in it; they deserve the lion's share of the revenue (not Uber, Lyft, or you) if you put the vehicle into their shared ridesharing fleet for profit.

You don't have to put it into their fleet though. But if you do, them the terms.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by joesb on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:14PM (#12749539)
You know that all car curently always has some form of software in its driving/braking system right?

What's next?

A blender has some kind of timer software in it so you can't use it in commercial unless you are on blender network? A TV has software for programmable channel in it, so you can't use it in your bar unless the TV vendor allow it?

Software is their implementation detail, I buy the resulting whole product.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by toomuchtodo on Thursday October 20, 2016 @12:50AM (#12749798)
And just like existing drive by wire vehicles, I don't own that software either.

Tesla is not prohibiting ridesharing. They are requiring the vehicle be in their ridesharing pool if you use their autonomous driving software.

Again, you own the car, not the software. Don't like the license, don't buy the car. Others will.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by serge2k on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:33AM (#12749929)
> Again, you own the car

and I should be able to use it as I see fit.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by imtringued on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:23AM (#12750312)
Then you will have to wait until somebody makes a product that suits your needs. Nobody forces you to buy a car where the autopilot cannot be used for commercial purposes.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by toomuchtodo on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:43AM (#12749960)
I'm sorry that your desires are not congruent with contract law and therefore reality.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by EvanAnderson on Thursday October 20, 2016 @02:47AM (#12750184)
Sounds like a good reason to look at changing contract law. I'm wondering what kind of precedent there has been in purchasing products but being forced to agree to a license to actually use the product. My uneducated perspective is that this hasn't been an area of concern until general-purpose computers appeared on the scene.

Edit: It's worth clarifying my opinion. I'm totally alright with software "manufacturers" leasing software to end-users (or, in the case of Tesla, leasing the software inside their rolling computers to drivers). What I take issue with is the notion that there is a "sale" when a license is involved. It's a lease, and I'd like to see the force of law involved in reflecting that fact in the marketplace. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I think consumers need to be clearly told that they do not own virtually anything that they've purchased that contains a general-purpose computer, and that they should not expect the benefits of ownership (ability to modify, to continue using even when the "manufacturer" has decided to no longer "support" the product, ability to resell, etc) in such a transaction.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by hash-set on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:14PM (#12749536)
I don't really buy into the software licensing bs--it was forced on us without any choices. It is the worst kind of legal bs there is. "You paid for this but you have no rights to it." Uh, yeah, keep thinking that.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by toomuchtodo on Thursday October 20, 2016 @12:53AM (#12749806)
You don't have to buy into a law for it to exist and be enforced.

And if you're in the tech industry, that "legal bs" is what allows you to have an income.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:01AM (#12750225)
I'm pretty sure if first sale doctrine applied to software, almost nothing would change. We're not talking about getting rid of copyright, just the idea that this thing that acts almost exactly like a purchase is not 'really' a purchase.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by teddyh on Thursday October 20, 2016 @07:37AM (#12751435)
> And if you're in the tech industry, that "legal bs" is what allows you to have an income.

So what you’re saying is that just because his salary depends upon his not understanding the arguments for this to be “legal bs”, he therefore should voluntarily choose to abstain from understanding them? Upton Sinclair would turn in his grave.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by Retra on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:54AM (#12749999)
And slave owners are the ones who allowed slaves to eat. That's not an argument that slaves should not fight for their freedom.

Your income is physically earned, not 'allowed' to you by insidious and underhanded legal means.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by toomuchtodo on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:56AM (#12750000)
Comparing a EULA or software ownership to slavery is such an excellent example of technologists being out of touch with the rest of humanity.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by Smaug123 on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:09AM (#12750260)
Presumably you're aware that comparing one thing to another does not imply that the GP thinks they are anywhere near equivalent. The common meaning of the word "comparable" is not "can be compared", but "roughly equivalent". You are acting as though GP considers them comparable-in-the-second-sense; GP's post actually claims them to be comparable-in-the-first-sense.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by ovao on Thursday October 20, 2016 @12:26AM (#12749726)
A Tesla is not forced upon you, however. If you're wary of the terms, do not buy a Tesla car.

Software has, by the way, always* been this way. I've been "buying software" for twenty years and I've never actually not gotten a license with it rather than the software itself, with all ownership rights conferred to me.

*within the scope of my knowledge and experience

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by serge2k on Thursday October 20, 2016 @01:32AM (#12749927)
> I can't really find fault in it; they deserve the lion's share of the revenue

Why? I paid them for the car. I should able to use the car however I want.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by eridius on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:11AM (#12750266)
You can use the car all you want. Go drive for Lyft or Uber. You just can't use the self-driving functionality that way. If you want your car to be making you money by driving people around automatically without you in it, you need to do so using the Tesla Network.

Honestly, this doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Self-driving functionality is presumably a piece of functionality that's heavily dependent upon lots of data that Tesla owns, dependent upon regularly getting software update, etc. Why should Tesla give its data and continued work on software upgrades to you for the purposes of using that for the benefit of one of Tesla's competitors?

Just face it. If you're buying a Tesla, you're not just buying a car, you're buying a software platform and access to lots of data and engineering work that Tesla provides on an ongoing basis. If you want just a car, then don't buy Tesla.

That said, if you are looking to buy a self-driving car and using that self-driving functionality for Uber or Lyft, good luck figuring out how. It would not surprise me if other self-driving cars had similar restrictions (though I guess if Uber sells self-driving cars to the general public then presumably you could use those with Uber, but probably not with Lyft).

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by rasz_pl on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:06PM (#12749506)
Actually you DO own it in EU, and can do whatever you like with it (borrow, sell).
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by varjag on Thursday October 20, 2016 @06:42AM (#12751169)
..but not rideshare on autopilot.

It's not unprecedented to have severe restrictions on software in EU. E.g. you can't use le Windows you legally obtained in France on two PCs simultaneously. Some vendors charge per-CPU/core licenses, some network software (e.g. certain PABX) charge even by the number of connected endpoints.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by teddyh on Thursday October 20, 2016 @07:48AM (#12751498)
That is probably because in order to install Windows on even one PC (let alone two), you have to make a copy of it. Even if an installation is (somehow) not counted as copying, two identical installations is clearly implying a copy has been made somehow. And copyright means you don’t have permission to copy the software. Therefore, you have to have permission to copy it. Another word for permission is “license”, and the license explicitly says under which conditions you are allowed to copy it.

A car, on the other hand, is not copied after purchase, so a copyright license is not relevant. A “license” (as stated above) is not a general list of conditions you have to agree on; it is simply a list of permissions for you to do what copyright law (and trademark law, etc.) would otherwise not allow you to do. No such law restricts what a buyer is allowed to do with a car after a purchase is made, unless a contract is signed. A contract can state arbitrary restrictions, but for something to be a contract, it has to fulfill a number of conditions: it must be knowingly and willingly entered into by both parties, it must not be unilateral or even, in some jurisdictions, too beneficial to only one party. Clearly your standard so-called “license agreement” does not qualify. Ideally, and usually, a contract is something on paper which both parties sign. Do you sign such a thing when “buying” a Tesla? If so, does this contract allow resale? Does the contract require the reseller to require the second-hand buyer to also sign it?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by belorn on Thursday October 20, 2016 @08:03AM (#12751559)
There is however a business trick to go around this "limitation" of copyright, and that is by using a "server" which the car will call home to (like once a week/month/year), or simply accessing data from on a regular basis. By restricting "access to the server", Tesla can impose any limit they want including restriction on the after market. Owners would also not be allowed to fix their own car to skip the check or talk to a third-party server as that would go against the DMCA anti-circumvention (which is part of US copyright law).
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sheer_horror on Thursday October 20, 2016 @08:14PM (#12757266)
Facebook, Google, Amazon, and every other huge company are huge because of their monopolies. Tesla would be making a massive mistake to not start walling in their garden.