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Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by djsumdog on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:57PM (#12749330)
The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high.

There is also the entire liability and planed obsolescent issues not being dealt with. Will Tesla support these cars forever? Will 10 year old models still get software updates?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sangnoir on Thursday October 20, 2016 @02:47AM (#12750182)
> The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles

People can already modify their car hardware in dangerous ways, yet no one is welding the hood shut. You may weld spikes on your car to keep prying eyes away if you wish, but when you inevitably impale someone, Ford will not be liable.

Why should software be treated differently? All Tesla has to do to avoid liability is to say "The vehicle was running firmware with aftermarket firmware installed by the owner". They won't even need to run diagnostics, they can simply look at the logs they collect.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by deanCommie on Thursday October 20, 2016 @06:50AM (#12751208)
Sorry, there is a fundamental difference with modification when you get into software, server-based logic, and machine learning.

It's a bit like when people used to modding their own hardware tools encounter a GPU or a RAM card that won't fit into a PCI slot, so they "cut it to fit", and then are surprised it doesn't work.

When you modify a car physically with spikes or to make more engine noise, or to have looser suspension you are dealing with isolated newtonian environments.

When you tweak software that involves massive machine learned models, you can cause absolutely unpredictable horrific consequences. There are good reasons to restrict this.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sinxoveretothex on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:14AM (#12750281)
> You may weld spikes on your car to keep prying eyes away if you wish, but when you inevitably impale someone, Ford will not be liable.

Because it will be obvious that it was modified, even to journalists, the public and a jury of your peers. Also the cops, who will arrest you for it.

But there is no such visibility for software.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sangnoir on Thursday October 20, 2016 @06:34AM (#12751127)
Expert witnesses exist for a reason - they will be able to answer the question whether the firmware was factory-installed or not.

> But there is no such visibility for software

Software modification has a lot of visibility, especially since Teslas log everything - why not log when new firmware was loaded? They could also checksum post-facto, but even that is not necessary: Tesla could implement something similar to Androids "fastboot oem unlock" option

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by sinxoveretothex on Thursday October 20, 2016 @12:37PM (#12753851)
> Software modification has a lot of visibility, especially since Teslas log everything

What I mean by visibility is that you can't fudge it, that reality is plainly visible to all actors.

Income is not visible directly (although what one's house looks like for example is visible and is a good indication of income). If you meet a well-dressed guy in a Starbucks, you have no idea whether he's crippled with debt or whether he has so much money he doesn't know what to do with. And that's true regardless of the fact that income is regulated by the government, that banks keep records and all that.

Software is NOT visible in that sense: whether your microwave is running code that will make it explode when you type in 9999 or not, is not something that can be known by everyone but the first person who has access to the device, let alone the public who couldn't understand how to compare two hashes anyway.

As far as any third party is concerned, Tesla could just be faking logs and no one would know. Actually, you may not see it still, so imagine that say, GM, suddenly releases an autonomous car and it crashes. Do you trust them when they tell you that the logs say the driver was at fault?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by munin on Thursday October 20, 2016 @09:39AM (#12752044)
I guess the concern is that both sides will get expert witnesses with equally long CVs to make equally compelling arguments and then it's on the jury to decide which PhD they want to believe. Not sure how that helps.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by Klathmon on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:02PM (#12749351)
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.

Cars are already extremely risky to modify, but it is still possible (and it's even a protected consumer right). I can go out and accidentally cut the breaks on my own car while changing the tire, if it causes harm, we already have a system in place to deal with it.

Why should software be any different?

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by tcpekin on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:40PM (#12749607)
I would argue that cars are not extremely risky to modify mechanically - the parts are usually large, almost everything you'd want to do on your car has youtube videos and forum threads with people doing the exact same procedure, and you have pretty immediate feedback if you really messed anything up/the car is inoperable.

I don't think that is the same for self-driving software if you were allowed to hack it. It is easy to test if your brakes work, I think it may be harder to test modified software with the huge number of interactions it must deal with.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by lisivka on Thursday October 20, 2016 @03:21AM (#12750306)
It's not a your business unless you will be hit by such car.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by hash-set on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:13PM (#12749533)
Oh baloney. Have you any experience with current car tech? It's pretty freaking basic, all things considered. Anyone who codes enterprise applications for a living can deal with a car's ECU, including ABS, traction control, all of it. The autonomous stuff is "scary AI" but if it's not open sourced, I don't want it.
Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by bsder on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:11PM (#12749527)
> The most interesting thing about self-driving vehicles is that there is a legitimate reason people should never be able to modify the firmware on their vehicles. The risks would be very high.

Tough. We have liability law to cover that.

You'll be screaming to allow modification when your trip is 20 minutes longer because a bunch of rich assholes paid Tesla to route all traffic around their neighborhood.

Re:All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving ... by hash-set on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:11PM (#12749528)
There is a fallacy of "appeal to authority" here. If it's my property, I'll do as I please with it. Risks? Look at the risks we face with DRM of all kinds and how are rights are reduced and eliminated for the sake of corporate profits.