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Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @10:49AM (#12598066)
The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet. I tried it for a while, and since I couldn't have carbs OR too much protein, I had several instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese and half-n-half. Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some, but not too much, salmon or chicken. I'm not arguing that it doesn't work for a good subset of people, but it's not the kind of diet that's easy to keep up over time or is all that economically feasible for some. Keto diets are actually more restrictive than vegan or kosher or halal, and it's not a surprise that they're mostly prescribed for epilepsy - it definitely feels like a "sick person diet".

I also wonder if it's possible to work out while doing keto. Since muscles use glycogen to work, and the keto diet is intentionally low in glycogen, does that make weight training and cardio harder? Especially the former, since you're limited in how much protein you can eat, and strength training benefits from having ~150g of protein per day.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by Nav_Panel on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:08AM (#12598226)
> The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet

From what I've seen, your diet should be ~60-70% fat, 5% or less carbs, and ~25-35% protein. Definitely not 95% fat.

> I had several instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese and half-n-half. Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some, but not too much, salmon or chicken

What about vegetables? I ate a lot of salads when I did keto. I also ate a lot of fattier meats, such as cured italian meats and ground beef. No reason to eat super lean protein when fat is most of your calories; buy the cheap fatty stuff and enjoy it. Also, eggs? I was having an omelette every morning.

> I also wonder if it's possible to work out while doing keto

It's very possible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211 but I doubt it would be if you're not eating any protein...

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:37AM (#12598522)
I prolly fucked the diet up, then. It certainly _felt_ like I was eating almost all fat...good to know that I can take advantage of cheap fatty meats like short ribs, oxtail, and marrow then.

As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by Nav_Panel on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:46AM (#12598606)
> As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings.

The rule for veggies is to avoid starch and stick to dark leafy greens.

My go-to easy dish would be a "taco salad", where I'd cook some ground beef and serve it with cheese, salsa, sour cream over lettuce. There's also lots of dishes possible with kale and spinach.

> take advantage of cheap fatty meats

Fish included! No reason to worry about eating "too much" salmon. Cook it with butter sauce and it should fit your macro-nutrient ratios perfectly.

> I prolly fucked the diet up

As another comment said, it's no wonder you felt sick. Also, the "keto flu" is a known phenomenon while your body adapts and flushes all the water out of your system. Drink a lot of electrolytes (chicken broth is a good source) and you'll feel better.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by hx87 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:44PM (#12600175)
Leafy vegetables can be difficult to eat in large quantities, but that's where the high-fat aspect of the diet comes in handy. Most vegetables are very tasty when stir fried in fats and oils.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by small_fish on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @01:42PM (#12599661)
Ranch dressing is fairly low-carb and generally the go-to for store-bought and restaurants. There are recipes out there for excellent low-carb French dressing that uses no-sugar Ketchup (Heinz, available on Amazon), Apple Cider vinegar, olive oil, and spices.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by esailija on Thursday September 29, 2016 @06:27AM (#12604300)
That study is only for a very short duration of keto.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by Nav_Panel on Thursday September 29, 2016 @09:34AM (#12605077)
Most people only do keto for a few months at a time anyway. 30 days seems more than sufficient to capture the changes that occur when doing keto short term. I doubt keto is very healthy long term.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by azdle on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:20AM (#12598340)
Not sure where you got the 90-95% fat, but I've never seen anyone suggest that you should be eating anywhere near that much from fat. If you were actually trying to get that high I can understand why you'd feel like it's a "sick person diet". From what I've seen, the traditional advice for 'macros' is that you should be eating 65/30/5 for fat/protein/carbs. However people often misinterpret that to mean that that's a goal for each and if they haven't eaten that much they should force themselves to eat that.

If you're serious about your diet, you should really take 5 minutes and figure out exactly what your body need. Each person is going to be a bit different, but in general (but slightly more specific than the last 'in general') you should be eating less than 20-50g of 'net' carbs, you should eat at least 1-2g/kg of lean body mass, and you should eat as much fat as it takes you to not be hungry. There are calculators that will walk you through all this, http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ is one that I've used before, it's more targeted at weight loss, but it's only one that I've found that makes an effort to cite the calculations it does.

As for working out, yes it's definitely possible. I've been lifting since December and making great progress. There are also occasionally stories of endurance athletes that swear by a ketogenic diet. My understanding of why it can be beneficial is that it basically removes your dependence on glycogen, when runners 'hit the wall' it's their body running out of glycogen their body then has to transition to running on fat. Keto-adapted runners are just running on fat from the beginning so they don't hit the wall and are more used to burning fat for energy.

I'm not a runner so I don't have personal experience in any of that, but in my lifting I do find that I have to take it a bit slower than I expect others have to. When you're keto you lose a bit of the 'bursty' power that people with glycogen reserves have.

I don't claim to be an expert on any of this, but I do continue with it. I've been mostly ketogenic since May of 2013, and I've had many improvements in things like mood, hair, skin, and sleep and I definitely notice a change in those things when I decide that the social aspects of eating are more important than my diet.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:35AM (#12598492)
I could have sworn that there was an upper limit on the amount of protein you can eat on keto. Something like, more than ~150g would mean that the protein starts getting used for energy instead of fat, which ruins the keto. Maybe that was misinformation. Does that mean that I can eat mostly stuff like steak, chicken, and eggs, then?

If it's really more of an upper limit on carbs ~20-50g, a minimum of protein, and the rest is fat, then I guess that's fine. When I tried it, I was very strict on the carbs such that I couldn't go over 20g. In fact, that calculator says I shouldn't be eating above 25g, and also says this:

> It is important to get enough protein to maintain your muscles, but not too much or it will kick you out of ketosis.

Which confuses me. I've since moved away from keto to a mostly-protein diet with some carbs here and there via veg and bread, and it's worked alright with lifting. Does that mean that keto diets are different for weightlifters than for non-weightlifters?

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by Nav_Panel on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:48AM (#12598623)
> more than ~150g

Have you ever tried eating that much protein? It's very challenging. Protein fills you up super quickly and keeps you full, and, psychologically-speaking, that's one reason why the keto diet works well when other diets fail.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:55AM (#12598694)
Yep - that's what I aim for now that I'm doing weight lifting. I definitely don't get as hungry/munchy as I used to, and I'm filled up pretty easily. It's certainly not impossible, but it does get kinda hard without feeling way full. Protein shakes help.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by azdle on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @12:08PM (#12598833)
Yeah, this whole thread is a pretty good summary of why specifying a diet is so hard. There's no way to get any definitive answers. People try to do good, hard studies on this, but they're almost impossible to control/fund.

Because of that you'll find a bunch of different 'right' answers. You have to kinda sift through everything and figure out what seems reasonable and see what actually works for you. There's a lot of that out there and that means that what is currently true can shift back and forth a bit.

It used to be 'generally known' that too much protein was bad and would kick you out of ketosis. But there was a new study released that seems to indicate that it has more to do with it being too high of a proportion rather than too much absolute quantity.

Unfortunately I don't have access to the journal databases anymore, so I can't find the links.

> Does that mean that keto diets are different for weightlifters than for non-weightlifters?

The definition of 'ketogenic' isn't changing based on what you do outside of diet, 'ketogenic' simply means that you body is producing a ketones and your body is using them for energy, it's more that some people will use other energy sources with specific timing to enhance their athletic performance. There's something called TKD, targeted ketogenic diet, (which think is named a bit backward) which is mostly used by weightlifters and powerlifters to increase short term performance by eating small amounts of carbs just before a workout.

TBH, I don't fully understand the effects of that so I haven't started doing it myself. I assume there must be benefits to staying ketogenic during my workout so I condition my body to always be used to using fat as a fuel source, but I don't have any data to prove that is actually beneficial. It also helps that I'm more focused on weight loss, baseline of strength, and general health rather than powerlifting or and goals for the super lean and large muscle look.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @12:46PM (#12599173)
That's more or less what I'm thinking. It depends on what works best for me, and for me keto diets are a little too high-maintenance for my liking, even though they're technically simple. I still naturally tend towards a high-protein diet, so that won't change - ketosis is just gonna have to take a backseat to that.

Maybe I'll take on a macro setup that's closer to keto, but I'm not going to move too far out of my comfort zone.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by ni-hil on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:05AM (#12598196)
There is different types of keto diets, and the ones recommended for "non-sick" people, does not asks you to restrict your protein intake. You should still consume around ~1g of protein per lb of lean mass, probably even more if you are an intense bodybuilder. Only carbs are restricted (often <25g/day), and then fat become inevitably your de facto energy intake.

I also recommend the `Tim Ferriss - Dom D’Agostino on Fasting, Ketosis, and the End of Cancer` podcast, and as you will see, being a bodybuilder on keto does not seems to be an issue. Not for him also.

There is another podcast with him `Dom D’Agostino — The Power of the Ketogenic Diet` but I haven't got the chance to listen to it yet.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:45AM (#12598595)
I'll have to knuckle down and listen to those podcasts, then. As for the protein limitation, the calculator in the other comments have upper limits. I keep getting conflicting information on this point.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by davio on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @10:54AM (#12598112)
You should listen to the Tim Ferris podcast with Dominic D’Agostino. It's pretty fascinating what Dominic does with keto diet as a researcher.
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by ethanbond on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @10:58AM (#12598141)
Could you provide a synopsis or a bit more info regarding the relevance to the topic at least?
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by davio on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:39AM (#12598536)
Dominic is a PhD researcher in this area. He has a lot of DOD type work where the Navy Seals want "Ketogenic Diet in a Pill" because subjects under ketosis are more resistant to oxygen toxicity when diving at depth.

http://www.onr.navy.mil/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2015/Oxy...

Dominic is also a super-strong guy and deadlifts like 600+ pounds while in ketosis. It's a fascinating 2 hour podcast. I don't think you'll be able to listen to it without wanting to be in ketosis.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:02AM (#12598170)
I would like more info or a small review as well, too. Mostly cause I'm at work and I'll forget by the time I get home...
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rpazyaquian on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:04AM (#12598185)
I'll also admit that a big reason I had middling success on keto was that I had no idea how to cook for myself without relying on a source of carbs. Learning how to cook fat-heavy, low/no-carb meals is something that I've never learned, and I'm stumped. I'd be interested in resources on cooking for keto!
Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by briHass on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:46AM (#12598602)
If you're looking for a cookbook, this one is good for some ideas: https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Cookbook-Nutritious-Low-Car...

Personally, I'm not a huge by-the-book cooker. For my keto/very-low-carb diet, I just focus on certain foods that are in line with the target macros. That means lots of:

- 80/20 hamburger meat

- Fatty steak cuts (e.g. ribeye)

- Fatty fish (e.g. salmon)

- Fatty chicken cuts (e.g. legs/thigh/dark meat)

- Most pork (except lean cuts like loin) e.g. pulled pork, bacon, belly

- Avocados

- Macadamia nuts

- Eggs (particularly yokes)

- All coconut products (e.g. oil, milk, unsweetened flakes)

- Green, leafy veggies that are low in carbs (e.g. kale)

- Green veggies that are high in fiber relative to carbs (e.g. Brussels sprouts, broccoli)

Spices are all good, so a lot of my meals turn out like meaty stir fry-type dishes without the starch and with a focus on adding fats (e.g. coconut oil, olive oil) if needed.

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by tcarey83 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:56AM (#12598705)
This site has quite a few good recipes:

http://www.genaw.com/lowcarb/

However, you don't have to be fancy. I usually just eat meat and low carb veggies for dinner. For instance, baking a bone-in chicken breast and heating up frozen veggies (lots of great mixes available) or doing a stir fry with chicken or beef and low carb veggies again (don't use packaged stir fry sauce, however since they are mostly sugar).

Re:Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? by rhinoceraptor on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @11:21AM (#12598353)
Over 70% fat is where you want to be if you are using it for epilepsy. There's no reason a healthy person should go that high.