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Re:iTunes will never work well by striking on Sunday September 18, 2016 @08:35PM (#12528009)
Their reputation stemmed from the days where everything was discoverable. Want to delete a file? There's a trash can glued to your dock. Need to perform a function but don't know the name? Look it up in the Help menu's search box.

Now, though, they've done the Windows 8 thing of overloading gestures and hiding behaviors. Want to see your notifications? Two-finger swipe to the left, starting from the edge of the touchpad. If the piece of text hasn't been there since OS X first came out, is it clickable or not? Because I damn well can't tell, nothing new looks like a button anymore.

I could also talk about how the gaussian blur effect is just about the most wasteful effect you can apply to anything, and is a far cry from pioneering the first fast rounded rectangle drawing algorithm, or anything in that vein, but I don't need to.

Because Apple's UI is just no longer good. I'd rather every button look like a shimmering stupid bubble than an unusable postmodern art piece.

Sent from my MacBook Pro

Re:iTunes will never work well by sirn on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:16AM (#12529120)
As someone who got to use a PowerBook G4 (running 10.5.8) from time to time (in fact, I'm typing this very comment on it), I fail to see how their current UI is any more undiscoverable than the UI from 7 years ago.

The trash icon was there in the Dock in 10.5, and still there in 10.11. The search function in help was there in 10.5, and still there in 10.11. To remove things from the Dock, right click the icon and the "Remove from dock" is still there in both versions. Any menu items that will open a dialog still indicates with three dots ("...") in both versions. Shortcut for opening dictionary is still not very discoverable in both versions (Cmd-Ctrl-D). I still don't know how to trigger Space/Expose without either using gesture (in 10.11) or look up the shortcut key (in 10.5).

I always see people saying Apple UI got worse in discoverability for the past few years and make it sounds like earlier releases were perfect, but I don't believe that is true. The bad part of the UI interaction was always there (e.g. drag icon from the dock to somewhere to remove it). The main difference I see is that 10.11 has a LOT more features than the 10.5, but the core interaction remain the same in regard to discoverability. In 10.11, we're exposed more to gestures, because it's quick, but there is always alternative way to trigger something without gesture.

Re:iTunes will never work well by niccaluim on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:39AM (#12529428)
I'd go back even further to find decent Mac UI, to the pre-X OS. Yes, it was a reliability garbage fire, but the Apple of that time really invested in usability. They published a 400-page book[1] for developers that explained the principles behind usability, showed how interface design fits into the development process, and gave specific guidelines for each type of interface element. The guidelines they publish today[2] are a lifeless husk by comparison.

[1] http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGuidelines.pdf [2] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...

Re:iTunes will never work well by mosselman on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:05AM (#12530158)
[1] is a great resource and a lot of it is still relevant. Thank you for linking to it.
Re:iTunes will never work well by garrickvanburen on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:38PM (#12534494)
I read (and purchased) the HIG as a graphic design student in university. It inspired me to jump into the UI design w/ 2 feet.
Re:iTunes will never work well by jonathankoren on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:47AM (#12532321)
> As someone who got to use a PowerBook G4 (running 10.5.8) from time to time (in fact, I'm typing this very comment on it), I fail to see how their current UI is any more undiscoverable than the UI from 7 years ago.

Problem: You plug in an external monitor and for some reason it doesn't immediately display an images. What do you do?

In pre-el-Capitan, you open up the display settings pane and press the button marked "Detect Displays".

In El Capitan, you open up the display settings pane and note that the button is not there. Are you screwed? It appears so. So you run a google search and discover that if you hold down the option key, the button that had been there for maybe 16 years magically appears in an area of what previously appeared to be blank in the dialog.

I believe that's called the Indiana Jones UI pattern.[0]

So yes, the discoverability has gotten worse over the years. This is something that was visible and made invisible.

[0] http://youtu.be/xFntFdEGgws

Re:iTunes will never work well by jheriko on Monday September 19, 2016 @09:29AM (#12531256)
I'm not sure it was every that great in OS X. My distant memories of system 7 do not include a frustration with this...
Re:iTunes will never work well by rtpg on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:40AM (#12528964)
want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...?

I think Apple was good at keeping things consistent across apps, but the chosen metaphors were sometimes just as confusing (if worse) than the blessed windows one.

Not that it matters, everything is learned behaviour anyways. Consistency is already a great achievement.

Re:iTunes will never work well by rsfinn on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:44AM (#12532288)
> want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...?

This is the appendix of the Mac UI.

Gather round, kids, and listen to Grandpa tell you a story of the days when Macs had only one floppy disk drive. When you wanted to copy a file from one disk to another, you had to (physically) eject the first disk to insert the second one, but the first disk volume was still logically mounted so you could use it as a source or destination. So the volume's icon remained on the desktop, only dimmed so you knew the disk wasn't physically present.

So you physically eject a disk by selecting it and pressing Command-E (remember, only one mouse button), but how do you get rid of the ghost icon afterwards? Same way you get rid of anything -- you drag it to the trash.

From there it's an obvious shortcut to combining the two operations by dragging a "live" icon to the trash to both eject it and remove its icon in one step. (Well, obvious in 1985, anyway.)

Now that we can right-click the icon to eject the volume and have forgotten the origins of the drag-to-trash gesture, it may seem nonsensical, but those of us who were there at the beginning were grateful for the shortcut. (Also, get off my lawn.)

Re:iTunes will never work well by Dain42 on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:07AM (#12529084)
> want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...?

That was just something that was there forever, basically since 1984. It was part of the Macintosh vernacular. You could also right-click to eject.

Re:iTunes will never work well by rtpg on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:18AM (#12529562)
That's kind of my point. It's all learned vernacular, so having inately understandable behaviour isn't as important as being consistent.

Though someone's saying that dragging the ion turns it into the eject symbol, which I hadn't noticed until now but is more reasonable.

Re:iTunes will never work well by wvenable on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:16AM (#12529122)
Right-click? On a mouse with one button?
Re:iTunes will never work well by Animats on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:07AM (#12529527)
"The Macintosh has a multi-button mouse, but the buttons are on the keyboard".
Re:iTunes will never work well by kagamine on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:53AM (#12529257)
You had t press a modifier key to right click, but 2 button mouses have been sold with macs since 10.2 at least, and 10.2 was available in 2001/2.
Re:iTunes will never work well by masklinn on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:12AM (#12529338)
> You had t press a modifier key to right click

Control, which still works incidentally.

Re:iTunes will never work well by rangibaby on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:09AM (#12529739)
You still need to enable right click from a menu for Apple-brand mice and trackpads. Otherwise ctrl+click is still the only way
Re:iTunes will never work well by masklinn on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:27AM (#12529813)
IIRC for trackpads at least it's been enabled by default for some time (though I believe the default gesture is a double-tap rather than a tap in the bottom-right corner).
Re:iTunes will never work well by Bartweiss on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:39AM (#12531751)
But it's been considered a terrible design choice since 1984. It's not one of those things that we decided against long after it was put in place, Unix philosophy types were complaining about the inconsistency of that choice the day it came out.
Re:iTunes will never work well by niccaluim on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:42AM (#12529444)
Contextual menus weren't added until Mac OS 8 or thereabouts. In all prior versions you either dragged to the Trash or used an item in the menubar.
Re:iTunes will never work well by ISL on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:13AM (#12529108)
if there was a two-button mouse....
Re:iTunes will never work well by fixmycode on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:04AM (#12529304)
the trash can turns into the eject symbol if you start to drag an ejectable volume
Re:iTunes will never work well by majewsky on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:35AM (#12529844)
1. Not very discoverable if your dock is set to auto-hide.

2. On a large screen, this action (the trash can transformation) can happen very far away from the place you're looking at, which means that you will miss it. This is a general gripe of mine with Mac OS: It will regularly place popup dialogs on seemingly random screens. I have three active screens, and when I'm looking at the left screen, the right screen is so far outside my FOV that I will literally not notice dialogs popping up there.

Re:iTunes will never work well by the_other on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:09AM (#12530170)
If you can set your dock to auto-hide, and run three parallel screens, you probably don't need any of the other assistance you're looking for.
Re:iTunes will never work well by creshal on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:58AM (#12530348)
Why? Are people only allowed to have multiple screens after passing some OSX geek initiation rite?
Re:iTunes will never work well by the_other on Monday September 19, 2016 @07:45AM (#12530569)
Sure, people can have as many screens as they can manage. I still think it's reasonable to assume that if you know how to configure a system to spread your desktop over three screens and to hide the widget that gives you the feedback/discoverability then you can use the skills that got you there to get you out of your predicament.

If your argument is that the dock is the wrong place for that feedback because it can be hidden, or that the disc/drive icons should always be closer to the dock, then we have a table laid for a good discussion.

Re:iTunes will never work well by Bartweiss on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:50AM (#12531838)
I would argue that OS X still has bad multi-screen support because I shouldn't have to hunt for where dialog boxes and status updates have been placed. Yes, I'm capable of doing so, but that doesn't mean I want to.

Broadly, I object to the inconsistency and high astonishment factor more than any specific choice. For example:

- If a program has dialog boxes open (e.g. a 'find' box), they maintain relative position as you drag the main window across screens. Which, if you move to a smaller screen, puts them in offscreen no-man's-land where they can't actually be used or closed.

- Popups should consistently happen on either the active screen, or the active/furthest-forward window of the spawning program. As is, they unpredictably follow either rule, or borrow from the next bullet:

- Spotlight should appear somewhere sane and predictable. Either the same every time, or over my active window, or over my mouse cursor. Instead, it appears on the window which my Dock has most recently minimized to. My hidden Dock, which I have to use the mouse to locate/move. And then let re-minimize, because OS X doesn't update Spotlight's target when it appears but when it goes away. And which can automatically move itself to different screens without my help, based on where I open programs. Again, invisibly because it's hidden.

- And Spotlight's screen is also the screen where it will open new programs (a good decision). So I can't just look for it, I have to revert to the mouse to move either Dock or program to the screen I've been attempting to use this entire time.

So rambling aside, I think OS X actively causes time-consuming problems for multi-monitor users. I resent that because it's a pain even if I memorize the rules and how to solve the problems.

In particular, I object to tying large swathes of behavior to the Dock, since it's location/contents are both invisible and unpredictable for many users.

Re:iTunes will never work well by the_other on Thursday September 22, 2016 @01:11PM (#12558357)
Wow. So many. I didn't know most of those due to using my machine a different way. I agree with your overall point that multi-screen use needs work.
Re:iTunes will never work well by rsfinn on Monday September 19, 2016 @11:35AM (#12532207)
> Want to see your notifications? Two-finger swipe to the left, starting from the edge of the touchpad.

Or, y'know, you could just click the notifications icon in the menubar (the one that looks like a list of notifications)?

Re:iTunes will never work well by eon1 on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:15PM (#12535224)
Er.. so what does a list of notifications look like, especially iconised, and how/why should I intuitively know that?
Re:iTunes will never work well by jheriko on Monday September 19, 2016 @09:28AM (#12531243)
I don't know, iOS was doing a lot of these things before Windows 8 was even in the earliest of pre-release states.

Sure the flat UI thing could be argued to have inspired some of Apple's later work... but I think the lack of discoverability started at Apple and was inherited by Microsoft, not the other way around.

You are definitely right that it has gotten worse in OS X overtime though...

Re:iTunes will never work well by Animats on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:06AM (#12529523)
Imagine what real 3D gesture recognition will be like.[1]

[1] https://atap.google.com/soli/

Re:iTunes will never work well by Filligree on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:34AM (#12531726)
Tiring.
Re:iTunes will never work well by Razengan on Sunday September 18, 2016 @09:41PM (#12528240)
> Their reputation stemmed from the days where everything was discoverable. Want to delete a file? There's a trash can glued to your dock. Need to perform a function but don't know the name? Look it up in the Help menu's search box.

The trash is still glued to the dock. The Help menu still has a search box.

Re:iTunes will never work well by knodi123 on Sunday September 18, 2016 @10:10PM (#12528341)
yes, that's an example of when everything was discoverable. Now, not everything is discoverable. Only some things.

I don't think anyone who uses osx would be unaware that the trash can is in the dock.

Re:iTunes will never work well by masklinn on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:11AM (#12529335)
> Now, not everything is discoverable. Only some things.

Both of Striking's examples are wrong though. The notification menu has an icon in the top-right corner of the screen (next to the spotlight one), click it to get the widgets/notifications; and OSX buttons still looks like buttons, they have changed look slightly (from aqua) and that's about it. Links have always been in OSX, usually for contextual linking.

They seem to know some iOS and assume OSX is the exact same, which it isn't.

Re:iTunes will never work well by nasduia on Monday September 19, 2016 @07:08AM (#12530393)
Wanted to eject a disk back then? Drag it onto the trash can. Not the most clever ui decision in the days when formatting floppy disks was a common task.
Re:iTunes will never work well by jsymolon on Monday September 19, 2016 @07:49AM (#12530586)
Sounds like a "fail safe" operation.

Eject is a lot safer than format.

Re:iTunes will never work well by Bartweiss on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:53AM (#12531861)
Yes, but there was still good reason to hate it - what about users who learned the pattern the other way?

It sounds silly, but ejecting disks was about as common as deleting local content. Overlapping "delete" functionality with anything else still threatens to cause unintended deletes, even if this was better than the reverse.

(It's still fuzzy with Volumes in OS X, where you can click an 'eject' button that effectively deletes downloaded content if you haven't copied it out. Check out how many Volumes low-confidence users have running some time.)

Re:iTunes will never work well by rangibaby on Monday September 19, 2016 @08:41AM (#12530924)
I thought what he meant was you could erase a disk when you wanted to eject it (oops!)
Re:iTunes will never work well by csydas on Monday September 19, 2016 @05:09AM (#12529967)
I take some issue with this because you're describing one method to resolve a task when there are many.

You can also see notifications by just clicking on the omnipresent icon in the Finder Bar, or act on the notifications themselves by clicking them as they appear.

Like, I agree that the versatility of the trackpads is a blessing and a curse - beyond a few common ones, most gestures are unintuitive and it's probably why not too many applications take use of them on non-mobile devices. But the issue isn't with Apple having hidden behaviors here, it's that one method is less visible than others which are very accessible. The issue with the Windows 8 charms was that all means of accessing them were obfuscated. You had to move to a certain corner or swipe from a certain way on trackpads that often had poor sensitivity (or conversely, were overly sensitive) and the behavior was erratic and unpredictable.

It's fine to dislike aesthetics, but that doesn't make it unusable. In the case of the text buttons, I can't think of an instance off the top of my head where the text wasn't clearly marked as button with either a drop down arrow or ... or some other item.

Re:iTunes will never work well by jheriko on Monday September 19, 2016 @09:31AM (#12531263)
> ... or some other item

some of these are not obvious, the little arrows pointing right are a bit confusing for instance - i only discovered they did anything when i clicked one in error.

Re:iTunes will never work well by threeseed on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:22AM (#12528886)
a) If you want to see notifications click the button in the top, right corner where it's always been.

b) Apple has not changed the behaviour of buttons on OSX. They still look like they always have.

c) Computing resources are not finite like oil. It's there to be used.

d) Which gestures are available has always been in the Trackpad system preference which has videos to show you how to use them.

Re:iTunes will never work well by wruza on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:09AM (#12529091)
On c): recharge cycles are limited, as are Amper-hours. Idk though how much it takes, I just don't like blurs, it is like you're semi-blind or your screen is damaged, sort of. But flat interface would be too ugly without all that color blots. It is like a makeup to actually bad ui. Shame on Apple they lost it at iOS 7.
Re:iTunes will never work well by Bartweiss on Monday September 19, 2016 @10:57AM (#12531892)
I'm not sure I accept D) as a full defense of a confusing system.

I get that some things can't be made intuitive, and have to be learned. But "there's a video somewhere if you know to look" is a crappy justification for the current setup. As is, non-regional gestures compete with regional versions of the same motion and the enabled-by-default gestures aren't terribly well chosen.

I've watched a lot of non-power-users work their touchpad, accidentally fire off either the wrong gesture or an unintended gesture, and then sort of click aimlessly until they get back to something recognizable. That's a sign that OS X is failing users, no matter how elegant things look to Apple.

Re:iTunes will never work well by pvg on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:43AM (#12529218)
Notifications have a dedicated button at the far right of the menu bar, a prime Fitt's Law location. The help and the trash are still where they've been for years.