While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same.

To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas at the Blue Bottle location in the Financial District usually make a scrumptious cappuccino.

You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy.

Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes both ways: hamburgers, Mexican food, Japanese food, etc, in Europe are not the same as you find in the US, Mexico, and Japan. It's not so much a critique as an observation about how hard it is to replicate cultural foods.

But I do have to add that people in the US have this attitude that they can borrow and replicate a cultural food, and then they hype it and get smug about--without realizing they haven't captured the essence of the original. How hard can it be to operate an espresso machine after all? Well, very hard if you include selecting and blending beans from around the world, roasting them right, grinding them just so, and dosing and tamping it right.

It's not a difficult process, the problem is there is little incentive to get to make it 'correctly'. Good pizza for example costs significantly more to make and you can only afford to serve it if you customers are willing to pay for it.

PS: Chocolate seems to be the worst offender, IMO. Good chocolate is pricy and has a poor shelf life, but tastes so much better than even expencive chocolate you can find in the US. Even when you can find a good brand companies just tend to make worse product over time, because that's how you maximize profit.

I am from India, living in the US and I have seen tons of Indian snobs saying the Indian food in the US is just not good enough. I just can't agree. I can imagine that the probability of finding good espresso may be much higher in Italy - maybe every corner cafe makes only the best coffee. But the idea that good espresso cannot be found anywhere in the US (or SFO), which is home to many Europeans, just seems a bit of an exaggeration.

Typically, coffee in Europe isn't the artisanal, single origin stuff one is probably used to on America's west coast. It's a different food. Especially in Italy, where they also traditionally mix in Robusta beans with the Arabica.

Robusta produces a better cream but is flat in taste. Arabica gives you the hops to draw the analogy.

Flat = nuanced!? Because definitely with beer I find it very questionable how breweries out-compete each other with making hoppier and hoppier beers that get completely dominated by it.

And the selection of one be all and end all criteria, in case of beer hops, in case of coffee the pureness of the beans I guess, that everyone measures itself on, seems actually very American to me.

Most Indian restaurants do not serve common Indian cuisine; no average Indian consumes saag paneer or "paneer tikka masala" on a regular basis. North Indians, on the other hand, have things like daal regularly; daals in Indian restaurants in the US suck almost universally. I haven't even seen a restaurant that serves rajma.

Maybe South Indian food is different, but I haven't had good North Indian food anywhere in the US.

I grew up in Puné and almost all restaurants served stuff like paneer tikka masala. That's what going out to eat was for us. At home we had home cooked Maharashtrian food. In the restaurants we had "North Indian" fancy dishes lol which were almost never made at home (So I've never had daal in restaurants). I see it the same way here. A North Indian may view it differently.

It's hilarious watching people argue over preferences as though they were facts.

Person 1: Steak is the best food!

Person 2: No, pasta is the best food!

Person 1: I am from Kobe Japan and steak is best!

Person 2: I am from Italy and pasta is best!

And so it goes. Both people are right and wrong at the same time. Preferences aren't universal facts.

How is steak pasta still not a thing? It's so obvious.

It took me a while to figure this out.

I also grew up with italian espresso and I always wondered why all these crafty, specialist roasters (all over the world) can't do a drinkable espresso and always end up with undrinkable acid in a cup.

A lot of italian espresso blends are a mix Arrabica/Robusta. Robusta beans create the sought-after strong/bitterish italien espresso flavor and probably also reduce/mask/balance the acidity.

Robusta beans according to the crafty roasters are low quality garbage, and they only care about arrabica beans. Clever marketing by the arrabica industry? Robusta beans have a bad reputation because they are majorly used by cheap coffee brands - but not all robusta beans are the same either.

So because third wave/hipster coffee shops only do arrabica, but italian style espresso needs a blend. That's why we can't have a good things.

I simply order espresso machiato when i want an espresso, the bit of milk foam reduces acidity to an acceptable level.

There is a longer article somewhere on nytimes about this topic. can't find it anymore.

You may be on to something, and you're right there is Robusta available that is supposed to be good.

Another difference is that American crafty houses are roasting lighter than in Italy. For whatever reason, Americans are following a different craft and not optimizing their espresso recipes nearly as well as the Italians and not using the same goals and procedures as they do.

And frankly I'm convinced some of the roasters simply don't know what they're doing. They've been told that roasting light is good, and they don't realize that light roasting with espresso brewing is risky. Especially with bean types that are known to be acidic.

I am solidly in the third wave camp. I like the origin flavors that I get in a lighter third wave roast that I simply don't get in an Italian shot. I do agree that a bit of milk tones down the acid a bit, and I feel that the origin flavors can through come through even in something like a cortado.

Another note, isn't the ratio for espresso in the States different than in Italy. When I was a barista in Chicago we did 1:2 coffee to water. I thought I heard that in Italy 1:3 or 1:4 was more popular. I may be wrong

Thoughts on Lavazza? I've settled on them for all of my home espresso making, and I think it tastes great. Definitely open to alternatives, though. (Local specialty shops isn't really an option for me; online ordering preferred.)

Not a fan. Illy is by far the best option for espresso. Otherwise the best cheap alternative I've found is actually cafe la llave. Makes a great espresso and americano.

Thanks for the tip. I'm hunting around for alternatives, and will try a few to see if I prefer them to Lavazza.

Lavazza together with stovetop mocha machines are a solid choice IMO. Plus you can buy that brand all over the world. You won't win any specialty points though...

A lot of quality Italian coffees are marketed as 100% arabica. This said, I've never worked behind the bar and the Italian food industry is very crafty, so anything's possible.

You sure they are blends for espresso? Italian brands or "american" brands.

Not sure about the authority of this page:

> Most of these Italian blends (Illy is the exception) clearly make effective and imaginative use of coffees of the robusta species

http://www.coffeereview.com/italy-seen-from-america-nine-gen...

Well, in Italy it's all either for espresso or "moka" (percolator), used more or less interchangeably (with different results of course).

http://www.lavazza.co.uk/uk/at-home/blends/caffe-espresso.ht...

(Lavazza has a number of other "100% arabica", including Qualità Oro that is more or less the golden standard - pun intended).

http://www.segafredo.it/it/a-casa/caffe/moka/emozioni-100-ar...

Illy we already said.

I personally don't wander beyond these three vendors (Segafredo is from my hometown, Lavazza is the most ubiquitous, Illy is the mainstream high-quality choice), but there are likely more. To be fair, there are also a lot of Robusta mixes as you go down, but the "100% arabica" brands is firmly at the high end.

Could it be that taste differs in different parts of the world?

Just trying to have everyone get along and get to be right.

American coffee snob here (not that I necessarily have good taste though): I was blown away by the espresso in Italy. On a two-week trip, every espresso I had there was better than any espresso I've had in the U.S. Which isn't to say I haven't had great coffee in America, just not great espresso. I think mostly Americans just don't care about espresso.

Pet peeve: high-end restaurants in the U.S. mostly don't care about the coffee they serve. A high-end restauarant will employ a bar tender, a pasty chef, a somellier, but not a barista. So you enjoy a fantastic meal and then when you order an espresso at the end, you get something the server pulled out of an automatic machine. Nooo, why!?

So if not espresso, what kind of coffee do Americans drink, but that's any good?

I'm just very used to italian-style espresso in the cafés and turkish at home, as that's the cultural norm around here (croatian adriatic coast; basically ex-venetian colony ;) ).

I'd like to give other styles a shot, but only provided they're worth a damn. Can't say I've been impressed by whatever the muck they serve at McDonald's is, or by home drip machines. Nor instant ofc...

My morning cup of joe is usually made in an Aeropress from freshly roasted and ground beans. Typically Counter Culture or Larry's beans (local suppliers), light roast. I use a burr grinder.

I sometimes also make Turkish w/o the cardamon, usually with a bit of sugar, maybe with a splash of cream (blasphemy I know). But I will also occasionally use a French press, a Chemex, or make cold brew. My wife uses a Moka pot, and I will sometimes use that to make a Cubano, though it's not nearly as good as a Cubano made in a pump espresso machine.

It just depends on my mood.

I gave up trying to make good espresso at home after getting frustrated with a Gaggia machine. My fault, not the machine's, but in the end I decided it was too much effort for 1-2 oz of coffee. :-(

To answer your question: as long as the beans are freshly roasted and ground, and the coffee made with care, I'm not particularly partial to any technique. You can even have a mighty fine cup of drip coffee. I think espresso is just a much more demanding technique to make well.

About instant: I know Israelis and South Africans who prefer it, but no Americans.

Maybe the worst way to brew coffee: percolators. Oh the horror.

Couldn't agree more on the pet peeve. I've stopped having coffee after a great meal at a restaurant because inevitably they'll ruin it with a cup of something awful. Even in places like Vancouver, SF or Seattle with a very strong coffee culture, and where pretty much anyone in the food industry knows a good coffee.

Restaurants are starting to get it. I've been to a handful of places in the past couple years where I left thinking "somebody gave a shit!" (which is really all it takes) -- Places that come to mind are Vetri, Osteria, and Zahav in Philly, Agern and NoMad in NYC.

Yup the main reasons high end restaurants do this is because of consistency, a cup of coffee from a nespresso would always yield a 6/10 cup.

Well, that, and if I'm not mistaken, the "default" coffee in Italy is a shot of espresso compared to the cup of filter coffee most of us drink in the US every day.

This reminds me of a Medium post I read recently, "Why Espressos in America are not Good?":

https://medium.com/@sinzone/why-is-espresso-in-america-so-ba...

In my opinion the only true Italian Espresso in the Bay Area is made at Cavalli Caffe. It’s a simple small bar with no interior design, no fancy coffee beans, and no extravagant machines. Cavalli is owned and operated by one man from Naples.

Interesting. I don't consider myself to have a very refined coffee palate, but I came away with the same impression. I wonder if you've tried any of the Seattle espresso shops: Vita, Vivace, Cherry Street, Millstead, Slate, Ballard Coffee Works...

I've not found a lot of good espresso after moving to SF either. The best, albeit a bit overpriced, so far is at Reveille's on 4th. If you have suggestions..

Yes - Grand on 23rd and Mission. It's a tiny hole in the wall and they use four barrel beans I believe, but they make a damn good and consistent espresso.

Maybe it's a matter of preference? I really miss just having a big pot of drip coffee. The machines where I am now (Europe, but not a part known for its cuisine) are all these Gaggia things that make a lot of noise and take ages to produce a cup of kind of flavorless, mediocre coffee, even with decent(ish) beans.

Their single origin Sweet Tooth espresso was pretty amazing when I had it last year, you could really taste the cantaloupe in that particular version. Their Seasonal Espresso was not bad either but I did make both at home as opposed to drinking them inside a Ritual shop.

I actually quite like Ritual. shrug

I feel like sometimes I'm the only person who does not care for ritual or bluebottle. I usually just keep my mouth shut in fear of people freaking out. Wayyyy too acidic.

Filtered coffee is very different from espresso. For a long time, I used to believe the old adagio that American coffee is just too weak, but then I started to appreciate it for what it is, and I enjoy it a lot. I wouldn't take the fruity (acidic?) coffee that Ritual and their cadre prepare as espresso, but as pour over, I haven't had anything that compares.

I haven't been to Ritual, but for places like Blue Bottle, Sightglass, Four Barrel, etc it might have to due with them using pretty light roasts combined with a V60 (or the slightly different pour over brewer that Blue Bottle uses). I like my coffee bright / acidic though.

Third wave espresso is acidic on purpose.

It's more than that though. "Citrus" was a flavor that roasters were trying to bring out, which is fine (and interesting). However, what happened with hoppiness in IPAs happened with acidity in American espresso. As roasters' palates got accustomed to a particular roast, they needed to keep going further in that direction to create a similar flavor. Thus, escalating acidity, and the rise of the sour bombs in 2011 or so. I feel like things have tapered off a bit in the past couple years (at least on the East coast).