News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by trothamel on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:25PM (#12407174)
Here's good video of the test/failure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BgJEXQkjNQ#t=1m10s

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Arjuna on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:43PM (#12407816)
Updates...

Elon tweeted:

"Loss of Falcon vehicle today during propellant fill operation. Originated around upper stage oxygen tank. Cause still unknown. More soon." [1]

SpaceX tweeted:

"At approximately 9:07 am ET, during a standard pre-launch static fire test for the AMOS-6 mission, there was an anomaly at SpaceX's Cape Canaveral Space Launch Complex 40 resulting in loss of the vehicle.

The anomaly originated around the upper stage oxygen tank and occurred during propellant loading of the vehicle. Per standard operating procedure, all personnel were clear of the pad and there were no injuries.

We are continuing to review the data to identify the root cause. Additional updates will be provided as they become available." [2]

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/771394161756942336

[2] https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/771395212304277504

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by rbanffy on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:02PM (#12407976)
Upper stage, so, unrelated to the reused first stage.

Rocketry is hard... And very unforgiving.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by krastanov on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:10PM (#12408035)
The first stage for this launch was brand new. They have not launched a reused stage yet (they just announced a contract with SES about such a launch).
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by nixos on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:23PM (#12408998)
Unfortunately, it's 2 for 29.

But if you look at the FT version, it's 1 for 8.

1. What kind of insurance will be needed on a billion dollar NSA satellite? $100 million? $125 million? It's not so cheep anymore, and considering delays etc. It's not such a great deal anymore. 2. They probably should have a "stable" platform and a "beta" platform, with a discount offered for beta.

Unfortunately, the "move fast and break things" attitude doesn't work with rockets.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jfoutz on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:25PM (#12409329)
Well, the whole origin of rocketry was about moving fast and breaking things.

Less glib, I'm not so sure. In shed development, you spend a lot to make perfect things. Aston Martin or Rolls Royce are great examples of this. In factory development, you spend a lot to make perfect systems. I'd hold up Toyota or Honda as good examples.

I'm not an expert in SpaceX technology, but i thought their big supposed advantage was tons of automation. With bespoke development, it's tough to bring down the failure rate. you just keep testing and verifying more. With a defined system, you fix the system to avoid those errors.

There's obviously a spectrum, and SpaceX isn't that far out on the automation scale, but i do think that's the intention. If they can survive long enough to reap those benefits, their launches will be cheaper and more reliable. In the mean time, lots of cheap, risky, attempts are probably better for debugging than thinking real hard and building the perfect thing.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by troyastorino on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:14PM (#12409543)
Insurance policies for rocket launches typically expect 1 in 10 rockets to blow up on the pad. ULA's 100% success rate is unusual for the industry. Elon and SpaceX are obviously shooting for higher reliability than the industry standard, but I don't think you should chalk this up to 'move fast and break things' causing substandard reliability.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:29PM (#12409351)
> Unfortunately, the "move fast and break things" attitude doesn't work with rockets.

Rocket technology has never advanced without catastrophic failures. "Breaking things" is the only way forward with it. Rockets, of necessity, have to push designs to their limits, or they'll never lift off the pad.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by reddog on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:09PM (#12409522)
I don't know if I agree. Aside from Challenger (I know -- a pretty big aside), what catastrophic launch failures were there with the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo program rockets? Or the Delta 2. And doesn't the old-fashion-can't-even-land-on-a barge Atlas 5 have a perfect launch and mission success record of 62 of 62?

It seems like building and launching a rocket that doesn't explode every 14th time is possible but its not cheap. The US has been doing it since the 60's. SpaceX may turn out to be OK for delivering Tang to the ISS, but let's let something else carry the Webb into orbit.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dredmorbius on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:05PM (#12410316)
Apollo had 17 missions and at least four failures or near failures that come to mind:

* The Apollo 1 launch-pad fire, during a training session, using a 100% pressurised oxygen atomosphere. Three dead. Grissom, White, and Chaffee. I can list them from memory.

* Apollo 11 suffered a lunar lander computer crash in the final seconds before landing, was programmed to land on what would have been unsurvivable terrain, and had fewer than 30 seconds of fuel left when it finally touched down.

* Apollo 12 was struck by lightning as it left the launch pad, knocking out much of the electrical system, which had to be reset. Fortunately they built things robustly.

* Apollo 13 had an oxygen tank explode as it was en route to the moon. The mission was aborted, though orbital mechanics meant that the astronauts still had to orbit the Moon, then return to Earth.

Any of 11, 12, or 13 could have ended with fatalities. One scenario for the command module pilot (Michael Collins in Apollo 11) was, if needs be, to leave his two crew members on the lunar surface and to return to Earth alone.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mikeash on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:02AM (#12410753)
Apollo 13 also came a few seconds away from blowing up during launch. The second stage center engine began a pogo oscillation that at its peak was vibrating the engine at 16Hz with an amplitude of about three inches. By luck, the intense vibration tripped a fuel sensor and caused the computer to shut the engine down just before it would have ripped the whole thing to pieces.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2016 @03:01AM (#12411399)
As an engineer, I am utterly astounded that the Apollo launches were so successful. Nobody had bigger balls than the astronauts who got in them.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jnbiche on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:36AM (#12412095)
> Nobody had bigger balls than the astronauts who got in them.

Yeah, they were really outsize personalities in every way (in a good way). Very unique time in American history.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by flukus on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:18AM (#12411001)
But it was all smooth sailing for Apollo 13 after that, right?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by engi_nerd on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:21PM (#12410603)
Eh, Apollo 11's difficulties were not a computer crash, but the computer throwing up repeated alarms saying "You are asking me to do to much, so I'm going to follow the rules you instilled in me about what tasks are vehicle critical and what tasks can be dropped." AKA the 1202 program alarm. Which happened because the rendezvous radar was left in the AUTO mode for descent, when it was only meant to be used for ascent.

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.1201-fm.html

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by garaetjjte on Friday September 02, 2016 @03:45AM (#12411558)
It wasn't "You are asking me to do to much, so I'm going to follow the rules you instilled in me about what tasks are vehicle critical and what tasks can be dropped.", but "You are asking me to do to much, so I'm going to reboot". It also overcompensated throttle lag due to old documentation.

http://www.doneyles.com/LM/Tales.html

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by cwillu on Sunday September 04, 2016 @04:27AM (#12423379)
Your reference confirms the parent's interpretation as well as yours:

> During the braking phase, up to the time the landing radar locked onto the surface, the duty-cycle margin was over 15%. After the radar acquired, the extra computations involved in converting the body-referenced radar data to the navigation coordinate system lowered the margin to perhaps 13%. When a monitor display such as Verb 16 Noun 68 was added, the margin shrank again, to 10% or less. Buzz Aldrin was perceptive when he said after the second 1202 alarm, "It appears to come up when we have a 1668 up"[16].

> With a 10% margin and a 13% drain, the LGC simply did not have enough CPU time to perform all the functions that were required. Thanks to the flexibility of the Executive design — and quite unlike what would have happened with a boxcar structure — there was no collapse.

[...]

> Having a relatively low priority because of its size, SERVICER got last crack at the available computation time. With a negative time margin it was SERVICER that had not yet reached its conclusion when the next READACCS, running punctually, scheduled SERVICER again. Because it had not reached its end, the earlier SERVICER had not released its core set and VAC area — so the next time READACCS called FINDVAC to schedule SERVICER the Executive assigned a new core set and VAC area. That SERVICER also did not finish. After a short span of such operation the Executive exhausted its supply of core sets and/or VAC areas. When the next request was made the Executive, unable to comply, called BAILOUT with a 1201 or 1202 alarm code.

[...]

> The interesting effect of this train of events, during P63, was that the problem fixed itself. The software restart reconstructed only the most recent incarnation of the SERVICER job, and flushed the uncompleted SERVICER "stubs" that had accumulated. In addition, it terminated functions that had not been restart protected because they were not deemed critical — including the DELTAH monitor Verb 16 Noun 68. This is why, following the two alarms in P63, the display returned from Noun 68 to Noun 63.

[...]

> During P64 the situation was different. Added to the regular guidance equations was new processing that provided the capability to redesignate the landing site. With this addition, the essential software by itself left a duty-cycle margin of less than 10%. The alarms kept coming. There were three 1201 and 1202 alarms within 40 seconds. Each time, the software restart flushed the Executive queue but could not shed load.

> At MET 102:43:08, forestalling the next alarm, Armstrong switched the autopilot from AUTO to ATT HOLD mode, easing the computational burden, and then entered semi-manual mode P66, where the burden was still lighter. After 2 minutes and 20 seconds spent maneuvering in P66 without alarms, the LM landed.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by engi_nerd on Sunday September 04, 2016 @02:22PM (#12425875)
Admittedly, I was being a little terse.

I've read his reference before and my reaction to his reply to me was "Yeah, that's right, too."

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by reddog on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:31AM (#12410849)
Right. Like I said, no catastrophic launch failures.

They did build things robustly back when the US still had a manned space program. I wonder how well a SpaceX rocket would do if it was struck by lightning as it left the pad.

Then again, Apollo 11 couldn't land on a barge. However it could land on the moon with two humans on board and then take off again and return then safely to earth. 47 years ago.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dredmorbius on Friday September 02, 2016 @05:11AM (#12411847)
There's a hierarchy of severity that's expected in industrial accidents, as I've recently learned running across a reference to the concept. The work was done a long time ago -- ~1930s - 1950s, and I think the earlier part of that period. It's used fairly heavily in the insurance industry still, from what I understand.

(I'm being a little vague because I can't immediately turn up that reference, I'll take a look for it.)

The upshot is that if you've got a base incident / accident / failure rate, you can predict with a fairly high degree of accuracy the likelihood of major accidents -- fatalities, major injuries, or catastrophic to plant and equipment.

(Now to see if I can find that.)

Here: H. W. Heinrich, Industrial accident prevention: a scientific approach (1959)

The publication date is later than I'd thought, but the data were collected much earlier -- 1931.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/industrial-accident-preventio...

Which I'd originally turned up ... through a NASA accidents presentation: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/accident/accident.pdf

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by OrwellianChild on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:00PM (#12409758)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2016 @09:38PM (#12410195)
The Mercury rockets had a lot of catastrophic failures before the first manned launch.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by reddog on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:03AM (#12410962)
Fair enough. According to Wikipedia of the 26 Mercury program missions there were 6 pre 1962 Mercury program launch failures before the 6 successful manned missions. 5 of the 6 failures were test flights without payload.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by vel0city on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:22PM (#12409317)
Well, the moving fast part is pretty important in rockets. Breaking things on the other hand...
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by rbanffy on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:25AM (#12411032)
Since until now rockets have been of the throwaway kind, they are all broken by the time we finish using them.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dredmorbius on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:07PM (#12410325)
Thats's what the explosive bolts are for.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by sangnoir on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:58PM (#12409476)
Speaking of insurance: the type of insurance policy that was taken on this unfortunate payload would only kick in at launch (ignition). Test firing was not covered.

1. https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/771409983074426881

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jsprogrammer on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:12PM (#12409533)
Look at the later response: https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/771410879770456064

Pre-launch was covered by a different policy.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by GarrisonPrime on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:53PM (#12408803)
As unforgiving as brain surgery. :)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by filereaper on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:11PM (#12408913)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by rbanffy on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:56PM (#12408820)
On brain surgery, the worst case scenario is one dead person. Rockets tend to inflate the body count prodigiously.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by ajarmst on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:59AM (#12410941)
Be careful with that assumption: the standards for reliability and safety for crew-rated vs. uncrewed vehicles are very different. I've heard figures at around 10% hull-loss accident rates as expected for uncrewed, vs. an order of magnitude less for crew-rated. There's a very good reason that the pad had been cleared of personnel, and no one was injured in this launch. While spectacular, this explosion didn't inflate any body counts, because the risks were understood and well-managed. Spaceflight is hard, and people die, but we need to make sure we are comparing the same categories when we assess risk, reliability and cost. Trimming that 10% hull-loss rate down to 1% can be done, but probably not at anything like a cost that would make it commercially viable. The only other way to ensure reliability is the way commercial aviation did it: break enough vehicles (and lose enough people) that you understand the failure modes so well you can very nearly eliminate them.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by tmptmp on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:10PM (#12409256)
On a slightly light-but-not-so-light note:

A brain surgery can result in worse still: like, surgeon performs a surgery, makes some mistake, the patient is alive and gets up and goes home, but due to the surgical damage caused becomes a serial killer.

So, strictly speaking a brain surgery can also result in a body count that is greater than 1.

Respectfully submitted.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by tominous on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:45PM (#12409957)
On a similar note, there's also the case of the leg amputation that killed 3 people: the patient (gangrene), the assistant (gangrene from fingers accidentally being amputated) and a spectator (from "fright").

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Liston

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by rbanffy on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:30PM (#12409605)
That's a good one. Thanks.

I wonder if there is a surgeon who's that skilled.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by carbocation on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:56AM (#12410921)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by bostonpete on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:11PM (#12414968)
Good grief -- cases 4, 2, and 1 all read like something out of Itchy and Scratchy! In fact, I know something like #4 was a story line in South Park...
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by RIMR on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:43PM (#12409409)
Things like brain science and rocket surgery are hard...
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dansze on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:13PM (#12408927)
Except in brain surgery the surgeon generally still gets paid.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by visarga on Friday September 02, 2016 @03:10AM (#12411433)
> all personnel were clear of the pad and there were no injuries

But it still must burn a hole in Musk's pocket.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by claar on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:17PM (#12408957)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by stock_toaster on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:14PM (#12409541)
Was that a bird flying in the background right as the explosion occurred? If so, it must have really scared the crap out of it!
[dead]
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by sctb on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:40PM (#12414742)
Please don't create such novelty accounts to post jokes with—we ban them, and then the main account if it continues. Comments on HN should be civil and substantive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by tripzilch on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:31AM (#12412074)
Honestly? Such tremendous superpowers, and out of all the good you could be doing for the planet, you're wasting your time playing dress-up and trying to save a rocket?

Check your privilege, Superman. Here's some ideas for you http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by anigbrowl on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:59PM (#12407471)
That's quite a lens, assuming the sound is correctly synchronized with the image.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by lobster_johnson on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:35PM (#12407749)
You can get cheap consumer cameras now with pretty absurd zooms. The $600 Nikon P900 [1] has an 83x optical zoom lens, giving it the 35mm-equivalent focal length of 24-2000mm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SC_2yD6wKk.

[1] https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1127274-REG/nikon_264...

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by wfunction on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:47PM (#12407854)
How good is the photo quality? Is it close to entry-level DSLRs'?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Tloewald on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:13PM (#12408061)
It's shockingly good for what it is, which is why the camera was sold out for six months and still commands pretty much its original retail price nearly a year after release.

Its big weakness is autofocus speed (making it useless for birders, etc.)

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by icanhackit on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:15PM (#12409823)
> Its big weakness is autofocus speed

In my experience the autofocus speed in daylight is fine and it's especially good at focusing on what you want it to focus on, so it's great for birders. The problem is noise-reduction i.e. image quality. Do a bit of pixel peeping and it begins to look like a watercolor painting.

I was lucky enough to get one the day it was released early last year. Fun toy, and great for travel/sightseeing where you often can't use your feet as a zoom, but not even close to 1" type sensor quality let alone SLR.

Saving my pennies for a Sony RX10 III 24-600mm equiv superzoom, thought it's roughly 3 times the price of the P900. Good review here: https://youtu.be/Ad1JDfmyNxI

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by lobster_johnson on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:08PM (#12408018)
Not even close to a DSLR. It uses a small compact-style sensor (6.17 x 4.55mm), which is about 14 times smaller than an APS-C sensor (e.g. Nikon D5500 at 23.5 mm x 15.6 mm).
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by macintux on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:59PM (#12407946)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by daeken on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:08PM (#12407548)
That's my thought. I counted about 12 seconds between initial explosion and the sound hitting the camera, which puts it at roughly 2.88km away.

Edit: Helps if I multiply properly. 12 seconds * 340m/s == 4080m.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jychang on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:33PM (#12407737)
Ok, the Falcon 9 1.2 [1] is 70m tall [2], and the rocket fills up about 80% of the vertical frame [3].

Using the "Image = FL * Obj / distance" equation, we get:

.8 * 24mm = x * 70m/4080m

Where x is the focal length of the lens assuming a full frame camera.

This comes out to a x = 1119mm equivalent focal length. If you have a crop sensor, this isn't too hard to obtain. I'd be amused if the video was taken with a Canon EF 1200mm lens or something, but the probability of that is 0.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos-6

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9_Full_Thrust

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BgJEXQkjNQ#t=1m10s

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by tobz on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:34PM (#12408663)
Could be a teleconverter in the mix... or a Coolpix P900. :P
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by lucretian on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:20PM (#12407645)
i think you mean 4.1 km?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by daeken on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:23PM (#12407668)
Yeah, I typoed the math -- used 240m/s rather than 340m/s for the speed of sound.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by anigbrowl on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:13PM (#12407586)
15, 5k
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Florin_Andrei on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:11PM (#12407569)
It's pretty easy to mate an interchangeable lens camera (DSLR, Micro Four Thirds, etc) with a small telescope. There are standard adapters for it. That basically gives you the telephoto lens to rule all telephoto lenses.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by anigbrowl on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:13PM (#12407592)
I know, I've done it. It's beautifully clear for a 5km throw though.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Florin_Andrei on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:04PM (#12408429)
Seeing conditions must cooperate also.

The shot is totally within the capabilities of a 200 mm Schmidt–Cassegrain in good seeing, which is not very bulky and could sit comfortably on a medium-to-large size tripod.

The theoretical linear resolving power of that aperture at 5 km is 12 mm. But in practice it will be several times worse.

This is all napkin-based math, I've no clue what optics were used for the shot. Might have been a compact 150 mm apochromat refractor - still capable of enough theoretical resolution, and possibly a more popular option (though more expensive) in practice.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mhandley on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:45PM (#12407353)
The frame rate isn't high enough to tell for sure, but it looks like the initial explosion might be between the strongback and the second stage, followed less than 1/30 second later by the second stage exploding. Certainly the initial explosion spreads out vertically much more than horizontally in the first 1/30 second, perhaps implying that the explosion was in vapour outside the second stage.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TheGuyWhoCodes on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:22PM (#12407655)
There is something flying just above when the explosion starts, probably a bird, but how hard will it be to just fly a drone there with some kind of projectile?

[Edit] Pre and Post explosion: http://imgur.com/a/IIzg2

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by objclxt on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:19PM (#12408117)
> but how hard will it be to just fly a drone there with some kind of projectile?

It's a massive long metal tube full of extremely flammable things...what seems more likely: drone with projectile entering a highly restricted piece of airspace, or as rockets are want to do, it blew up by itself.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dredmorbius on Thursday September 01, 2016 @10:24PM (#12410396)
NB: wont to do.

Though you've given me a reason to look up the etymology. Now I now: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=wont&allowed_in_fra...

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by disillusioned on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:11AM (#12411195)
NB: Now I know

:-)

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dredmorbius on Friday September 02, 2016 @05:07AM (#12411835)
Aaaaagh!

:-)

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TheGuyWhoCodes on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:30PM (#12408635)
Of course it's more likely that there was a malfunction, no one is saying otherwise, I was just wondering how SpaceX guards their lunch pad from aerial intrusions, hitting a small drone flying fast isn't an easy target and you'd have to have a constant watch for them.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jccooper on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:45PM (#12408741)
> I was just wondering how SpaceX guards their lunch pad from aerial intrusions

Mostly by being on an Air Force base, many miles away from anywhere someone might operate a "drone". Wouldn't help much against a fixed-wing telepresence rig, but not much would.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by samwillis on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:34PM (#12407743)
The camera is over 4km away, I think its something flying past much closer to the camera.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by pavelrub on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:42PM (#12407809)
An insect flying in front of the camera lens. You can see this multiple times throughout the video: 0:54, 4:28, 4:41...
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by giarc on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:33PM (#12407732)
Given the distance between the camera and the rocket, it still could be a bird.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by zzleeper on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:24PM (#12407671)
Looks way too fast and round for a bird.. but yeah it's clearly there
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by nkrisc on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:32PM (#12407724)
It's probably a bug in the foreground of the camera. You can see the same thing at around 1:06 in the bottom half of the frame before it explodes.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by ChuckMcM on Thursday September 01, 2016 @01:43PM (#12407335)
Anomaly at 1:10 in that clip, as a SpaceX fan its hard to watch.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by karma_vaccum123 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:45PM (#12407829)
You can just say explosion, we're not at the Cape.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by ChuckMcM on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:56PM (#12408356)
Which is a sub-class of anomaly :-) it is really hard to scrub Youtube videos, and I (like probably a zillion others) was looking for root cause indicators; things like where exactly on the fuselage does it start? What equipment is there? How energetic was the explosion (oxidizer only? mixed with propellant? Etc. There are at least 30 frames between 1:10 and 1:11 (maybe 60). There are many things to rule out, was it a leak in the LOX hose? Was it a rupture of an internal tank? did the equipment detach prematurely? etc etc.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by flashman on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:09PM (#12409520)
> it is really hard to scrub Youtube videos

    pip install youtube-dl
https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by erelde on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:15PM (#12407612)
Is there a bird just flying above the explosion just seconds after the sounds comes through ?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by thewisenerd on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:23AM (#12412046)
What exactly happened at 1m14s - 1m15s where the _big ball of fire_ seemingly exploded again ?

p.s. skip forward to 1m21s to see AMOS-6 burn (in case you dislike facebook _very_ much).

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by rsp1984 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:17PM (#12408956)
Can somebody properly explain the different stages of the explosion? Obviously there's the first explosion but then after about 3.5 seconds there's a second, bigger one.

What's exploding in the first boom and what in the second?

Then, about 12 seconds in, the "nose" is falling down and causing a 3rd explosion. Why hasn't the nose "co-exploded" already with the 1st or 2nd explosion?

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by hoorayimhelping on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:01PM (#12409231)
The first explosion is the smaller second stage igniting. The second, bigger explosion is the first stage exploding. The first stage has most of the mass of the rocket in the form of propellant and is what SpaceX lands on the barge after it separates from the second stage. The second stage is smaller and lighter, and puts the satellite into low earth orbit, or into its transfer orbit in the case of higher orbits (eg geostationary orbit).

The 'nose' falling is payload and its protective fairing. The idea of a fairing is to protect the the satellite from aerodynamic, heat and acoustic stress. It explodes because the satellite has propellant in it - certainly for its rcs system for attitude adjustment and station keeping, and it might have a main engine to help it reach orbit.

http://www.spacex.com/falcon9

http://www.spacex.com/news/2013/04/12/fairing

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by TenOhms on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:53PM (#12409193)
Just some wild guesses:

First explosion related to second stage (upper). Second explosion related to first stage's fuel igniting (I was expecting some much bigger, but likely there was already little oxygen left in that area and why it burned for so long. Third Explosion was the satellite's internal fuel (Hydrazine or something like it) detonating due to the fall damage and contact with the rest of the flame.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by zodPod on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:31PM (#12408641)
THANK YOU. The TC video has a giant stupid banner over it that blocks and distracts from the video.

This video is also insanely high quality. Thanks!

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by diggernet on Thursday September 01, 2016 @08:22PM (#12409855)
Nice to see that the payload didn't start to topple until around 6s after the blast. Gives hope of the launch abort system having time to do its job had this been a manned launch.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by dnautics on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:01PM (#12409222)
interesting highlights:

1:23 you can see the sat fairing fall from the stack, and then a secondary explosion when it hits the ground (presumably sat propellant)

3:24 second explosion with a fairly fast projectile coming out the top. Any clue as to what that is?

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Animats on Thursday September 01, 2016 @02:56PM (#12407925)
No sign of a fire extinguishing or pad deluge system, such as NASA had for the shuttle. Maybe Space-X needs that. Fire crews can't approach until the fire burns itself out - too toxic.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by rst on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:09PM (#12408027)
The point of those systems was to limit damage from vibration and rocket exhaust on a normal launch, not to allow the pad to withstand an explosion. (And SpaceX does have them as well; the pad deluge system is more visible than usual in this video of the Dragon pad-abort test, which was conducted at the same launch pad they use for Falcon 9s, though without the rocket itself or any of its mobile support equipment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_FXVjf46T8 -- the large streams of water kick in a few seconds before the Dragon abort thrusters kick off.)
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by jhayward on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:02PM (#12408409)
> The point of those systems was to limit damage from vibration and rocket exhaust

It is important to note that the deluge functioned to protect the launch vehicle from sound vibrational damage, not the pad.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by exDM69 on Thursday September 01, 2016 @03:58PM (#12408376)
> Fire crews can't approach until the fire burns itself out - too toxic.

You're thinking of hypergolic propellants like hydrazine and nitric acid. This is kerosene (RP-1) and liquid oxygen. Not particularly toxic, just hot as hell.

The deluge system in shuttle launches was for the flame trench and sound dampening to avoid the air pressure from the noise damaging the vehicle, not fire extinguishing.

You can see the launch tower get charred black, that's the fire protective paint.

It's not really possible to fight rocket fuel fires, just mitigate the damage.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mikeash on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:37PM (#12408688)
Although the satellite itself had a lot of hydrazine on board. That's probably what caused the smaller second explosion when the fairing fell off and hit the ground.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by raverbashing on Thursday September 01, 2016 @05:18PM (#12408962)
Yes that's my guess as well. 200 million dollar firecracker
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by nraynaud on Thursday September 01, 2016 @06:46PM (#12409430)
stupid question: is that the actual manufacturing price, or is there some one time R&D and tooling in it?
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by mikeash on Thursday September 01, 2016 @07:56PM (#12409739)
Seems like a really good question to me! I'd guess there's some one-time stuff involved, so the replacement won't cost $200 million, but it won't be a whole lot cheaper. My totally uninformed random guess would be something like $100-150 million for the second one. Maybe more, it could be that the one-time stuff is already amortized across multiple satellites.
Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by taneq on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:12AM (#12410986)
I wondered the same thing. I can't imagine more than a few million dollars of raw material goes into a satellite. I'd wager it's more like $150mil to design the satellite, then $20mil for parts and $20mil for labour to build it (since these things are so low-volume they've gotta be largely hand made).

It'd certainly suck to be one of the people who's slaved over the satellite for the last couple of years, to see your baby get blown to smithereens like this.

Re:A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket has exploded at Cape Canaveral by Animats on Thursday September 01, 2016 @04:21PM (#12408565)
Oh, right; the Falcon second stage is just a smaller version of the first stage.