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Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by ACow_Adonis on Thursday August 18, 2016 @06:48AM (#12311523)
Orwell made some interesting observations in one of his essays in how the increase of technology doesn't lead to greater freedom, but greater scale, bureaucracy, and increased governance at a distance: with the invention of the telegraph, decisions were now made by ministers in whitehall vs english army officers reliant upon a shared belief/culture system and taking the initiative in the field.

That being said, while there is an interesting and at least plausible reason to believe there is some connection between such phenomenon and technology, i think the article is a bit too quick to proclaim that its things like "technology", "emailing" and things that have lead to a lack of empathy in the modern workplace.

On the contrary, i think organisational size and governance lines (which is in some ways connected to technology, admittedly), globalisation, outsourcing, and just the general economic and social realities of the modern workforce lead to a necessary degeneration of trust and respect between workmates and the organisation.

My company, for all its "values", will throw me under the bus to save itself, or for a quick buck. I cannot rely on it to support me into the future: even if it wanted to put money into a pension, i can't rely on that actually remaining solvent. I don't even know if my field/expertise is going to be around for the next 5 years. It is always looking to screw me over, outsource my labour, etc, etc. Its not "too much emails" that does it: its that I know I'm essentially working for a short-term psychopath that couldn't keep its promises to me even if it wanted to (and it doesn't want to).

If you raise people in harsh cutthroat conditions, don't be surprised if empathy falls by the wayside, or expect the lamb to lie down with the lion.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by PakG1 on Thursday August 18, 2016 @10:20AM (#12312653)
My company, for all its "values", will throw me under the bus to save itself, or for a quick buck. I cannot rely on it to support me into the future: even if it wanted to put money into a pension, i can't rely on that actually remaining solvent. I don't even know if my field/expertise is going to be around for the next 5 years. It is always looking to screw me over, outsource my labour, etc, etc. Its not "too much emails" that does it: its that I know I'm essentially working for a short-term psychopath that couldn't keep its promises to me even if it wanted to (and it doesn't want to).

Reid Hoffman makes a great point about how companies truly aren't like families. https://hbr.org/2014/06/your-company-is-not-a-family quote:

In a real family, parents can’t fire their children. Try to imagine disowning your child for poor performance: “We’re sorry Susie, but your mom and I have decided you’re just not a good fit. Your table-setting effort has been deteriorating for the past 6 months, and your obsession with ponies just isn’t adding any value. We’re going to have to let you go. But don’t take it the wrong way; it’s just family.”

I'll take it to another extreme. Loving families (I won't say real families, because there are clearly examples of families that don't do this) will stick with you through thick and thin during your substance abuse, put you through rehab, and still do their best to help you when you fall off the wagon again and again.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by sytse on Thursday August 18, 2016 @12:35PM (#12313987)
I agree that companies are not like families. In GitLab we try to never refer to it as family because families don't have performance improvement plans, underperformers, and offboarding processes. I just made this official in https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/commit/95964433...

I do this that technology will give more flexible work hours. I think it is just that changing a social process is hard and is unlikely to happen in an existing structure.

At GitLab we've embraced remote work and work hours are truly flexible. The only exceptions I can think of is that our team call (attendence optional) is at a fixed time. And that we expect service engineers to work 5 days a week on normal weeks to make sure we meet our next business day SLA without bouncing a ticket between many people.

I think remote only http://www.remoteonly.org/ will become more popular but it will take new companies to get there.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by auxbuss on Thursday August 18, 2016 @04:56PM (#12316251)
s/close nit group/close-knit group/
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by sytse on Thursday August 18, 2016 @06:03PM (#12316658)
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by derefr on Thursday August 18, 2016 @01:11PM (#12314362)
Re that quote: the author apparently has forgotten the existence of royal/noble families. When there are titles at stake, children certainly do get "disowned" for all sorts of reasons. (This doesn't mean they're kicked onto the street, though—they're not disowned by the parents, but rather by the family. Which just means they're no longer expected/allowed to inherit whatever they were going to inherit, and so they stop being groomed for it, which usually means the parents redirect their attention elsewhere and the child ends up raised by a nanny.)
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by dredmorbius on Friday August 19, 2016 @01:29AM (#12318137)
Do you have any references / sources / examples / stories of this? Sounds like an interesting area.

Thought there's a difference in being disowned / disinherited, and in simply not being the primo genitur -- the offspring who will inherit the title.

I'm thinking of Ludwig von Wittgenstein, born to one of the wealthiest families of the Austro-Hungarian empire in the late 19th century. In his case, he chose to leave the family, or at least its wealth, though AFAIR it remained reasonably supportive of him. I'm not sufficiently versed in nobility/royalty to think of other instances offhand.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by skybrian on Thursday August 18, 2016 @04:42PM (#12316175)
Do they have the equivalent of 401ks in the UK?

It seems like that's the solution to the pension issue. If the company goes bust you still have your retirement savings.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by ArkyBeagle on Thursday August 18, 2016 @08:00AM (#12311776)
But it's "psychopaths" all the way down. I like very much that you chose "to save itself". My resume is full of firms that did exactly that. The ones that are still open are muddling along, about where they were before I worked for 'em. They are firms that are "retired".

There is little that is "psychopathic" about it; it's just mildly complex mathematics, the sort used in accounting.

It's just a reflection of "space does not care".

I think it's much, much simpler. The defacto standard for a firm is everyone underfoot, whirring away. Those who deviate from this are blamed when tightening occurs. This is reported as "remote work is on the wane." That becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Likewise, one failure in coordination and remote work is blamed.

Wanna know what's worse? Shorting the ability of many, many people to remotely work is probably the right bet.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by PeterisP on Thursday August 18, 2016 @09:42AM (#12312390)
In some industries where "the labor force" has more negotiating power, you do get a choice to avoid "working for a short-term psychopath that couldn't keep its promises to me even if it wanted to".

I've seen and also participated in an employment model that's a bit "feudal" in nature - where the prime loyalty is between the worker and the team + team leader, not the larger megacorp. This allows the manager to get stuff done well and thus often but not always avoid excessive pressure from outside/above and thus keep any promises made even if they're not legally binding; and if they are thrown under a bus (which happens, sometimes for various unavoidable circumstances e.g. change in ownership) then this simply results in most of the team re-assembling in a company that treats them appropriately.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by clifanatic on Thursday August 18, 2016 @01:44PM (#12314704)
I love how this article (and the hundreds of others like it) points out that companies perform better when workers are happy, and workers are happy when (fill in the blank). There will never, ever, ever come a day when the owners of the companies care if the workers are happy. Even if you can convince them that they make more money when the workers are happy. The people in charge exist for the sole purpose of making people unhappy, even if it leads to non-productivity, even if it leads to loss of revenue, even if it leads to shareholder decline, even if it leads to workplace violence, even if it leads to suicide, even if it leads to armed revolution. The people who rise to the top do not care about any outcome except spreading misery "below" them as a means of asserting their dominance.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by redbergy on Thursday August 18, 2016 @03:02PM (#12315392)
I'm not sure how to respond but I feel compelled to do so. I've never seen your assertions in practice anywhere I've worked in the past 15 years. Sure, at some places people who rise to the top only care about the outcome of the bottom line but never have I seen executive leadership or even middle management who only cares about spreading misery. I could see this being the case at entry level jobs where you're 16 and have an immature 18-20 year old manager but not in the adult world. Maybe you've had a bad experience or two but I don't think your characterization is accurate here.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by ulkram on Friday August 19, 2016 @06:40PM (#12324037)
What he's saying is that some people derive happiness from being high status. Thus, their goal is not for everyone to be happy. Their goal is to be above others, even if they have to push others down.

I'm not sure I completely agree, but it does seem to be at least a part of human nature.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by zizee on Thursday August 18, 2016 @07:40PM (#12317032)
> The people in charge exist for the sole purpose of making people unhappy

Are you saying that all business owners (including small businesses) are sadists? Either you have worked in only really bad workplaces or you have a really distorted view on reality.

Every business owner I know would prefer for their employees to be enjoying their work. What possible motivation could their be for them to desire the opposite?

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by mindcrime on Thursday August 18, 2016 @03:13PM (#12315501)
My company, for all its "values", will throw me under the bus to save itself, or for a quick buck.

Will you also throw the company under the bus to save yourself, or to make a quick buck? Can the company rely on you for your support through thick and thin in the future, even if they have to, say, quit paying you for a while until finances improve?

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by ACow_Adonis on Thursday August 18, 2016 @05:38PM (#12316500)
Perfectly valid and interesting points. Obviously (or not so obviously) that depends on the company.

If it was my own company, my local or town company, my community, or my family's, I would actually want to support it or fight for it. I'm also at a point of life where I've afforded to buy a house and am actually willing to sacrifice or put in effort to make things better in my community. I'm actually looking for a job nearby that I can sit in for the next few years. Does such a job exist anymore at any scale? I realise that many people can't afford to even buy where I live or into their local community any more.

But my current employer is a giant organisation. Some of my bosses aren't from the same nation, let alone the same community, they have an off-shoring agenda. I've been through 2 restructures recently and lost two bosses and several workmates.

I'm not looking to apportion blame, I know who I'm working for and why.

But I do think it's more of a logical outcome of our modern society and economics, even though I have a strong urge to contribute locally, and I actually want to settle down somewhere long term...that's really hard/risky...

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by forgetfullest on Thursday August 18, 2016 @07:35AM (#12311661)
> i think the article is a bit too quick to proclaim that its things like "technology", "emailing" and things that have lead to a lack of empathy in the modern workplace

No, it's actually quoting "Sherry Turkle, director of the Initiative on Technology and Self at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology", and maybe you're a bit too quick to dismiss the amount of thought she put into such claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherry_Turkle

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by witty_username on Thursday August 18, 2016 @07:38AM (#12311676)
This is irrelevant and an appeal to authority.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by forgetfullest on Thursday August 18, 2016 @09:01AM (#12312140)
It's exactly relevant to the claim that "the article" is "quick to proclaim" anything. The article is quoting the claim of someone who isn't rash at all.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by _archon_ on Thursday August 18, 2016 @11:15AM (#12313106)
We don't know that. The article didn't back up these quotations with reasoning, it just assumed that they were fact. This is pretty much the definition of an appeal to authority. A superior article would lay out how and why such disconnects exist; I have no reason to believe they do other than one person I'm never going to meet having said so.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by st3v3r on Thursday August 18, 2016 @12:29PM (#12313920)
No, an appeal to authority is when you say that because someone is an authority in one area, they should be listened to in another. In this case, this is her focus of study. I'm sorry if you think it's fallacious, but I'm gonna give the person who has studied the subject a little more weight than some rando on the internet.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by throwanem on Thursday August 18, 2016 @05:03PM (#12316302)
> No, an appeal to authority is when you say that because someone is an authority in one area, they should be listened to in another.

It's really not.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by dredmorbius on Friday August 19, 2016 @01:43AM (#12318186)
You're not only mis-using appeal to authority, but you're now using argumentum ad nauseum to boot. You're wrong, and you're not advancing the discussion.

It also helps to keep in mind the distinction between logical fallacies, used in a strict logical sense, and strength of argument. The case here is one of "what is the evidence to support a belief?", not "are the argument's predicates and conclusions logically valid in a strict sense?".

The original argument was that the article was "too quick to proclaim". The rejoinder was that this wasn't the article's conclusion, but that of an expert on the subject.

The discussion has been advanced, the initial claim invalidated, and additional relevant information provided.

To reject the conclusions of the article simply because of an appeal to authority, without also presenting a stronger claim that the authority is invalid, doesn't advance the argument.

To persist in that is tiresome.

A key question is whether or not the authority in question is credible. I've engaged in any number of discussions where showing credibility is at issue, and showing a particular source's good faith or record of admitting error (or not relitigating falsehoods) is crucial to qualifying or impeaching a witness. Again, you've not done this.

Paul Graham's "How to Disagree" is popular around here for various reasons. The derived graphic on hierarchy of disagreement is also strongly recommended.

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarc...

You might also want to catch up on your logical fallacies and how/when they're appropriate or not.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/authorit.html http://www.skepdic.com/authorty.html http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority...

Note that key to these is the question of expertise.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by throwanem on Friday August 19, 2016 @06:41AM (#12319108)
You know I'm not whoever you were arguing with, right? I'm just here to point out that you might want to double-check a definition.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by throwanem on Saturday August 27, 2016 @08:48AM (#12372127)
(Oh, and it's "ad nauseam", not "ad nauseum." HTH!)
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by gingerrr on Thursday August 18, 2016 @05:26PM (#12316437)
Wrong. Appeal to authority (argumentum ad vericundiam) says that: because Ms. X is an expert on Y, this statement she made about Y must be true.

There's no condition requiring the subject matter to be outside her area of expertise, in fact it wouldn't make sense there - since she's not an authority on areas not her expertise, it can't be an appeal to authority in that instance.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by st3v3r on Thursday August 18, 2016 @05:36PM (#12316489)
It's still not relevant to the point, as this is her field of study. I would trust her to know what's going on before any random doofus on the internet.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by gingerrr on Thursday August 18, 2016 @07:52PM (#12317089)
If by "I trust her to know what's going on" you mean you would put faith in a proposition she makes based solely on her domain knowledge, that's literally the fallacy.

Sure - trust her to know the data in the space better than some random doofus. That's sensible, and why we have experts.

That doesn't mean you can grant her extra consideration when evaluating the soundness of the argument she makes with that data as support - the logic contained in that argument does NOT depend on her being a domain expert, but on being a good logician. That's what the fallacy points out.

I don't think we're disagreeing, but I wanted to clarify the distinction between her being a field expert and her being an argumentative expert.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by ethbro on Thursday August 18, 2016 @12:26PM (#12313879)
Argument to authority and argument to expertise are two different things.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by tn13 on Thursday August 18, 2016 @04:25PM (#12316077)
I am not sure what to make of Orwell's essay. I think it is a fight between people v/s government and who is a winner is not clear. In USA government has massively expanded in last 100 year under so many pretexts, Americans are significantly less free and most of it seems to be achieved by government using sheer propaganda and fear mongering.

But when I look at my home country technology has helped us escape the government propaganda, understand our own history better, realize the scam of the ruling party that virtually rules all the years post independence and feel far more hopeful about future.

Indians are better informed, more free and are able to exercise their choices because of technology.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by kiba on Thursday August 18, 2016 @07:37AM (#12311668)
decisions were now made by ministers in whitehall vs english army officers reliant upon a shared belief/culture system and taking the initiative in the field.

The temptation to micromanage every aspect in the field from afar would lead to defeat in this day and age.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by gaius on Thursday August 18, 2016 @08:12AM (#12311847)
Incidentally, this is the reason that Companies in the British Army are commanded by Majors rather than mere Captains in the US Army - because the British Army had a longer history of operating in very remote places so you needed a more senior, experienced commander on the ground.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by autokad on Thursday August 18, 2016 @08:30AM (#12311955)
"On the contrary, i think organisational size and governance lines (which is in some ways connected to technology, admittedly), globalisation, outsourcing, and just the general economic and social realities of the modern workforce lead to a necessary degeneration of trust and respect between workmates and the organisation."

your arguments support the article. its very hard to argue that globalization and outsourcing isnt fueled by tech (Voice over IP for example). your skills becoming obsolete also point to the fast pace tech. not sure about the general economy and social realities, although i feel facebook does more to separate people than to connect them.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by microcolonel on Thursday August 18, 2016 @08:41AM (#12312010)
The point is that it doesn't have to do with technology itself. The technology is what enables us to have large organizations, and large organizations are almost inevitably alienating.

I'm sure you could tell when the East India company got to a certain size.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by ethbro on Thursday August 18, 2016 @12:29PM (#12313918)
> doesn't lead to greater freedom, but greater scale, bureaucracy, and increased governance at a distance

Interesting point given the parent comment (quoted). I'd assume the East India Company, regardless of size, still operated in a fairly federated/independent manner. You can't very well micromanage across 4-6 months travel time.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by wuschel on Thursday August 18, 2016 @01:43PM (#12314688)
Interesting remark, and it in a way can be observed in our daily lives around the world when you compare to what older generations said.

Could you point me to some of these essays? I would like to have a look at them.

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by WalterBright on Thursday August 18, 2016 @07:39PM (#12317028)
I'm curious if you think this is new, or companies have always been that way. Is there any evidence that government bureaucracies are any better?
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by fr0sty on Friday August 19, 2016 @04:23PM (#12323188)
Forgive the random comment here, but I just ran into an ancient comment of yours[0] mentioning you searching for a Leader LBO-514a Oscilloscope. Was your search ever successful? I just got my hands on the same model and have been searching for a manual without much luck.

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10078026

Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by WalterBright on Friday August 19, 2016 @05:52PM (#12323785)
I managed to get one for a nice price on Ebay, and have been very pleased with it.
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by wineisfine on Thursday August 18, 2016 @01:51PM (#12314753)
Seems like youre working in a very toxic environment there. What stops you from changing or starting something yourself?
Re:Technology was meant to herald a new way of working, but ... by Apocryphon on Thursday August 18, 2016 @01:55PM (#12314808)
I think the toxic environment the writer is describing is modern capitalism itself.