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Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by falcolas on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @09:34AM (#12261552)
I'm a software developer who focuses on operational automation, and this brings almost nothing to the table which I could want. Especially replacing the function keys with a touchpad; why would I want to replace dedicated keys with muscle memory attached to them with soft keys that can change on whim?

Better graphics may be nice, if it's enough to allow me to drive a pair of high-resolution displays in addition to the laptop's screen itself. I'm not hopeful, though, due to the power and heat requirements.

As for thinner, at what cost? Battery life? Active cooling? A nasty keyboard like those in the new macbook? Losing even more ports?

Here's what I want in a MBP refresh: More power. Enough battery life to allow me on a hangout all day long; or at least enough battery life that I can have Chrome running and still be able to code all day long. A strong enough graphics card to smoothly drive a pair of 4k monitors in addition to the internal monitor. No loss of existing ports. More CPU power for compiling code. A touch screen.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by msravi on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @09:55AM (#12261729)
> or at least enough battery life that I can have Chrome running and still be able to code all day long

Shouldn't that be an action for Google rather than Apple? Of late, I've found Google's applications to be big battery hogs - Chrome and Google Drive for example (on OS X)

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by falcolas on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:20AM (#12261925)
Honestly, if it wasn't Chrome, it would be any of a number of other applications finding their way into our daily milieu. One of a dozen Electron based "desktop" apps. Firefox. Eclipse. I can even spin up the processor with VIM, if YCM or Anaconda addons have to do a lot of work.

As developers, we use CPU for work, and we use it hard. A battery in a "pro" laptop should support that need.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by Alphasite_ on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:11AM (#12262332)
Firefox is nowhere near as big an offender as chrome. Chromes absolute disregard for me frankly offends me.

Also, programs like IntelliJ do have low power mode, which does help significantly in my experience.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by falcolas on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:27AM (#12262444)
I won't argue that point - Chrome is a huge offender - but compared to Safari, they both leave a lot to be desired on the energy consumption front.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by specialist on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:20PM (#12265978)
Are there any knobs or dials (for any OS) for controlling how much battery (amps) an app (or task) is allowed to use? That'd be more directly useful to me than controlling CPU % utilization and so forth.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by NegatioN on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @09:40AM (#12261604)
Why the touch screen?

That seems like an odd addition to the list.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by dillera on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @09:51AM (#12261694)
I agree, a touch-screen on a 'pro' laptop (unless it's a 2-in-1) is useless.

Also: Please don't ever, ever touch my laptop's screen.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by partisan on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:14AM (#12261872)
I had a co-worker who made threats against anyone whose hands came close to his screen. Even pointing at the screen was enough to get a look of death.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by criddell on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:53AM (#12262191)
I can't stand fingerprints on my monitor, but I don't even notice them on my phone or tablet. Before I got my first touchscreen phone, I was pretty sure the dirty screen would drive me bonkers, but that never happened.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by _JamesA_ on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:15AM (#12262362)
That's probably because phones and tablets usually have oleophobic[1] surfaces.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipophobicity

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by anexprogrammer on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:23AM (#12262417)
I seem to have oleophobic-proof fingerprints then. I'm constantly cleaning phone screen (swipe on jeans these days now phone is not spanking-new).

You could easily see my swipe or pin pattern from prints and smudges, even from one use, which never happened with actual keys.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by newscracker on Thursday August 11, 2016 @06:27AM (#12267151)
The oleophobic coating does vanish with use over a period of time. That's why you wouldn't see fingerprints and such on a new device, but would on an older and well used one.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by criddell on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:53AM (#12262665)
My phone screen is smudged, but it doesn't really bother me. If I spot something on my monitor, I can't get any work done until I have it cleaned off.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by realworldview on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:21AM (#12261937)
I am that person.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by partisan on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @12:52PM (#12263154)
Randall?
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by coldtea on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @01:12PM (#12263298)
It's usually because of fear of death, extending to the non acceptance of any decay to the objects one uses.

Same kind of people leave the plastic wrap around their remote controls (or worse, car seats).

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by john_reel on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @03:46PM (#12264339)
Is it really? Is there more that I can read about this?
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by mason240 on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:55AM (#12262210)
I have a Surface Pro with a touch screen and found it to be very useful and natural to use.

The Surface is plugged into a dock for all my heavy work, so I'm not using the screen anyway. If I am using it as a laptop for more internet-browsing related work, the touchscreen is so useful that I don't need a mouse.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by falcolas on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:14AM (#12261877)
Since I use an iPad on a relatively regular basis, I find myself reaching for the screen on my MacBook when it's on my lap and I'm reading the web. Scrolling through webpages with a touch on the screen is a natural gesture now; having to pull my hands back to the touchpad feels clunky in comparison.

It's a minor wish, but a worthwhile addition, IMO.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by mikestew on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:44AM (#12262590)
It's interesting that I hear these anecdotes, because as a user of touch screen devices pre-dating iOS, and every iOS device from 2nd-gen iPhone onward, not once have I ever caught myself reaching to touch the screen of my laptop or desktop monitor. I dunno, in my mind "handhelds are for touching, things with keyboards are not to have their screens touched under threat of bodily harm."
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by ojbyrne on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:41AM (#12262098)
The article describes a "secondary display" that is a "touch screen strip for function keys"

No indication that the main display is going to be touch-enabled, at least not that I can see.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by jon-wood on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:00AM (#12261760)
Especially in a pro Macbook I could see it being really useful - think of all the people developing iOS applications on them. They can now run the simulator on the laptop display and have it pass touch events through to the simulated device.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by w0utert on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:17AM (#12261904)
And in addition to that, they should add an accelerometer for even more fun when testing shake and tilt gestures. ;-)
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by evan_ on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:06AM (#12262300)
MacBooks have always had accelerometers, originally it was called the "sudden motion sensor" and was ostensibly used to park the hard drives in the event of a dropped computer.

I'm pretty sure they're still in the modern MacBooks, though Google seems to be mixed on the matter.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by mikestew on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:47AM (#12262615)
That sensor was taken out with the SSD MBPs: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201666 (under Note at the top of the page.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by intoverflow2 on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:36AM (#12262515)
It is not because there is no need to park the HD
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by smartcar on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:12AM (#12262342)
The touch screen would be quite an exciting addition to a Macbook. Why? If you are an iOS developer, wouldn't it be great to try your app in the simulator directly on your monitor? You wouldn't have to keep an iOS device right besides you to try it out or use a cursor to simulate touches.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by xlayn on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @09:40AM (#12261605)
+1

We had a post about "we want a modern macbook" and your post was my post.

As you I want a PRO version as in quad core, better graphics gazzillion of ports and cooling solution to keep everything running smoothly.

But I think the PRO update will be inclined toward flashiness.

I strongly believe we only have incremental updates to the pc as we know it.

I have an ASUS ROG and it has a pair of HUGE fan vents on the back, that's the only way of keeping power running.

Let's see what happens.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by yoodenvranx on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @09:50AM (#12261685)
> "we want a modern macbook"

All I want is a modern IBM T42 or T61 with a 14" screen. I don't care if it is ugly, big or weighs a ton. The only thing I care about is a good keyboard, a robust chassis and the fact that I can rebuild the whole thing with just a screwdriver.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by lorenzhs on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:07AM (#12261815)
I recently swapped the mainboard of my T420, it was quite easy to do with just a screwdriver (and the maintenance manual and some thermal grease). Extended this five year old machine's life by another year or so for ~50€. It was very easy to do with the manual. I'm not sure how much harder it is with the newer models, but maybe a ThinkPad meets your requirements better than a MacBook?
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by xlayn on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:05AM (#12261800)
With you, I own an x220 and a x200t that has been running as a server for more than 2 years non stop.

I'm in love with the magnesium industrial construction and as you mention the keyboard.

In fact the keyboard is the thing that would prevent me from upgrading to a newer thinkpad.

As for opening and maintaining the elitebook 2560 with it tool-less chassis is an option as well as possessing the eraser head option and good keyboard.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by bluedino on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:06AM (#12262305)
I don't. I like Lenovo keyboards but I like Apple's keyboard just as much.

I also much prefer Apple's trackpad, thinness, screen, and battery life compared to my old IBM's.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by coldtea on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @01:15PM (#12263323)
>As you I want a PRO version as in quad core, better graphics gazzillion of ports and cooling solution to keep everything running smoothly.

So you want one of these PC "desktop replacement" laptops, which weight in the tons, and have desktop-class hardware.

That's not what the MBP's are about though.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by xlayn on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @01:29PM (#12263419)
Do you mind elaborating what are MBP about? Keep in mind that we already have the Air and plain MacBook options with increasing trade-offs to favor portability, which are the exact cure to your argument:

"So you want one of these PC "desktop replacement" laptops, which weight in the tons, and have desktop-class hardware."

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by coldtea on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @01:58PM (#12263626)
>Do you mind elaborating what are MBP about? Keep in mind that we already have the Air and plain MacBook options with increasing trade-offs to favor portability, which are the exact cure to your argument

All Mac laptops are supposed to be thin, weight little and generally make the right compromises for portability.

The "Pro" line is also expected to have the most powerful graphics and cpu of the whole line, but still under the above restrictions. And they're supposed to only stay the same or go down (in weight/thinness) not have regressions to fit some desktop-class CPU.

So it's not like Apple says "we have the Air and Macbook to cover thin and lightweight, so now we can pig it out with the Pro's".

That has been their philosophy and design thinking from the start, and that's how they've sold all those million units.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by Someone1234 on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @10:19AM (#12261921)
> I have an ASUS ROG and it has a pair of HUGE fan vents on the back, that's the only way of keeping power running.

Ditto.

It isn't very mobile but holy heck is it an incredible developer machine. You really hear the huge cooling fans kick in when you hit compile on a large project.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by anexprogrammer on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @11:12AM (#12262341)
You've said what I was going to type.

I don't want reason to look at the keyboard. I type faster when I keep eyes on screen. Responsive OLED display might be useful if on the bezel either side of the Macbook Pro logo, but it's really just more screen acreage there.

Pro should be more of a powerhouse, with a decent keyboard I can actually type on for hours rather than minimalist chiclet keys with no travel. Enough that I can be encoding a movie, or compiling a big code base without it threatening to catch fire. Let me have a decent all day workload, not just email, editing and browsing.

More power, more ports, 1/8" thicker if it gives me an all day workstation with better graphics and CPU horsepower. definitely no touchscreen for me though. Something more like a Thinkpad W series without the 2" thick brick effect.

What I don't want is a bigger Macbook Air with pointless keyboard gimmick.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by acjohnson55 on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @12:50PM (#12263132)
Agreed, the pre-Retina thickness is alright with me, assuming I get all these things in return.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by prh8 on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @12:02PM (#12262733)
I agree with what you would like for the new MBP. One note, the 2015 MBP does smoothly drive dual 4Ks plus the internal. That's the set up I have at work right now. I just have the base model, and I'm not sure about the 2014 ones.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by acjohnson55 on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @12:48PM (#12263121)
Don't forget storage! My home MBP is going on 6 years old, with no replacement in sight, because it can house an extra hard drive (in lieu of the optical) big enough to store my photos.
Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by coldtea on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @01:10PM (#12263290)
So, to recap: place for extra hard drive, big enough battery to last all day, big juicy graphics card, very powerful cpu, ability to drive 1 pair of 4k monitors + internal screen, and all existing ports left.

That would also need a shopping cart to carry it around, and oven mittens to touch it.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by coldtea on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @12:58PM (#12263219)
>I'm a software developer who focuses on operational automation, and this brings almost nothing to the table which I could want. Especially replacing the function keys with a touchpad; why would I want to replace dedicated keys with muscle memory attached to them with soft keys that can change on whim?

For several reasons which are obvious to me.

1) You can of course leave the soft keys as the current function keys are -- and retain the "muscle memory", with losing nothing at all.

2) You can tune them to a specific app (e.g. Logic, Cubase, Premiere, Photoshop) and get a second (or third, etc) app-specific set of muscle memory for its shortcuts. People pay $50 or even $200 for custom app-related controllers for such apps, with buttons mapped to "transport controls" etc.

I guess you don't suddenly lose your muscle memory when you press "SHIFT" and the number row becomes a different row (e.g. 3=>#, 4=>$ etc). So you shouldn't lose it with 2 or even 3 or more sets of soft keys to change depending on context.

3) You can even get behaviours that aren't possible with actual keys -- e.g. have the soft panel display a volume bar you drag on.

4) You can show information that's not related to keys -- e.g. the current cpu temp, new emails, notifications, "batch jobs completed" etc. Which could far more useful that "change brightness" that one does how often? Twice a day at most?

>Here's what I want in a MBP refresh: More power. Enough battery life to allow me on a hangout all day long; or at least enough battery life that I can have Chrome running and still be able to code all day long. A strong enough graphics card to smoothly drive a pair of 4k monitors in addition to the internal monitor. No loss of existing ports. More CPU power for compiling code. A touch screen.

Except the loss of ports, the others are not doable without ending up with a hotter and bigger machine, and some work against each other (better cpu + graphics VS better battery life). If they used a more powerful Intel CPU it would eat into the battery life, and same for graphics card -- especially when it would be driving "a pair of 4K + the internal monitor".

In other words you want a desktop class workstation -- which would translate to something like a 4kg "laptop" -- and then you (or others) will complain that it's weighty, it gets too hot, etc (and nobody will buy it, except the kind of people who want the latest nvidia power card + pair of 4K monitors, that is, outliers).

Lastly, even the touch screen doesn't make much sense without a detachable screen for ergonomic reasons. 5 minutes with your hand raised and it's off to the doctor for some painkillers. If they'd ever do it, they'd need something like the Surface Book's turnaround scheme, which would probably sacrifice sturdiness.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by falcolas on Wednesday August 10, 2016 @04:56PM (#12264695)
> You can of course leave the soft keys as the current function keys are -- and retain the "muscle memory", with losing nothing at all.

The position of the key moves, the haptic feedback changes (even with fine-tuned vibrations, the lack of a physical edge to a key makes a noticeable difference), and requires that the functionality of the keys be completely configurable - something I personally find unlikely given the current trend of Apple products.

> People pay $50 or even $200 for custom app-related controllers for such apps, with buttons mapped to "transport controls" etc.

And they frequently have very specific form factors to match their controls. Very few are flat slates with graphics on them (excepting graphic tablets, which are emulating paper).

> You can even get behaviours that aren't possible with actual keys

Which assumes that we want functionality which is not possible with physical keys.

> Which could far more useful that "change brightness" that one does how often? Twice a day at most?

I have the function keys mapped to shortcuts in my text editor, so those keys get used rather frequently, actually.

> the others are not doable without ending up with a hotter and bigger machine

Bigger, up to a point, is fine by me. I'm not asking for an alienware gaming laptop, just a laptop fit for a developer.

> which would translate to something like a 4kg "laptop"

Aside from being condescending, this comment is also inaccurate. I'm not looking to do 4k gaming, I'm not looking to mine bitcoins; all I want to do is develop software while using collaboration tools and not have to worry about my battery when I'm off power, or a 10hz refresh rate on external monitors when I'm on power. Doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation for a laptop aimed at professionals.

> Lastly, even the touch screen doesn't make much sense without a detachable screen for ergonomic reasons

I'm not asking for the removal of a touchpad, just the addition of a touch screen.

Re:Apple Said to Plan First Pro Laptop Overhaul in Years by coldtea on Friday August 12, 2016 @07:43PM (#12279516)
>The position of the key moves

This has been true for function keys over several generations of Mac laptops/keyboards. Rarely they were kept in the same exact position for more than 2 years or so. So nothing new about the strip in this regard (if anything, it might give people the ability to have them where they are used to).

>and requires that the functionality of the keys be completely configurable - something I personally find unlikely given the current trend of Apple products.

That's kind of the whole point of having soft keys though. And I don't see this trend of Apple removing Mac OS configurability really, except if we talk about things like adding security sandboxes and checks (which is done for a reason: security).

>And they frequently have very specific form factors to match their controls. Very few are flat slates with graphics on them

Some though are basically just that. The lemur was just a touch screen for example and there are other strip like models of the same thing. Others are just sets of unmarked keys, for you to decide what each does, etc, but all identical otherwise (for which an OLED strip would be an improvement). Those things are popular in the electronic music production world (which I participate in). As are mere overlay stickers for the keyboard.

>I'm not asking for an alienware gaming laptop, just a laptop fit for a developer.

Developers usually have meagre CPU needs -- especially the majority which are people like web developers (and most C developers I know too). Heck, Linus Torvalds made do with the old MB Air (with Linux) and now a Chromebook, again hardly the most capable box.

The only exception would be for running multiple VMs, but while there might be legitimate reasons for running > 1 VM or needing more CPU power in general than what a quad i7 (as in in the MBPr 15") offers -- but I doubt those reasons are there for a large market.

>all I want to do is develop software while using collaboration tools and not have to worry about my battery when I'm off power

While larger battery life is always good, is there a large enough market of people who develop all day unplugged and need more than 5-6 hours of battery (which MBPs can do)? Enough to justify making a bulkier case for a bigger battery?

>I'm not asking for the removal of a touchpad, just the addition of a touch screen.

My argument wasn't addressing the removal of the touchpad, but the utility of having a touch-screen in the first place. If it's of marginal utility (without, as I wrote, a detachable screen), why have it?