On the plus side, Ann Arbor is tolerable, but small. There are no real cities in Michigan. The closest is Chicago, and while I'd love to live there, the terrible winters (sub-zero temps with 40mph winds in the city corridors due to the Great Lakes and walls of skyscrapers), lack of mountains, and lack of sunshine would make it hard.

Rent and food are cheap, but you're in the middle of nowhere with not many interesting + motivated people to talk with, and there's not much actual good food (people there can't afford $50pp meals). The young people are mostly leaving (or they want to). There are a lot of crazy / malicious business people out there as well (I experienced many of them doing basically computer consulting). Mountain biking out there is great (look up MMBA if you're interested) but the mosquitos will eat you alive if you stop, even for 30 seconds. The lakes are nice and cottages (usually smaller homes on lakes, usually "up north") there are well within reach of the middle-class.

I'm done with nasty people with nasty attitudes. They can keep their murder mitten.

Sounds like you're the one with the nasty attitude. Currently live in metro detroit. Have had the opposite experience as you.

Thank you :)

But really the Ann Arbor area isn't bad. I'm always a bit amused by discussions like this one in which so many voices seemingly argue that for reasons of weather, culture, and software engineering concentration, life really isn't worth living outside the Bay area even if you need to spend 4 hours a day commuting while sharing a 500 sq. ft. apartment with 2 roommates.

The idea that it's questionable for Google to establish a location in Michigan for automobile research rather than keeping it in the great Silicon Valley is beyond funny.

There are physical limits for the short- to mid-term and there's some upper limit to what even wealthy tech companies are going to pay for new CS grads to work in Mountain View or Cupertino.

In January, for example, Stockholm's average daily temp is -2.8C(27F) while Detroit's is -5.1C(23F).

Outside of the winter months, the rest of the year is warmer in Detroit.

Long term average is around -3, with 3 of the past 10 Januaries having an average above zero.

with temps below -20 C (0 F) a regular occurrence

Not since 2011 if SMHI is to be believed and that was only around Bromma and inwards, not around the city center and towards the coast.

Oh really? That sounds like a very sad life you have. After work, when it's warm outside, I take some colleagues and we go for a cold beer next to the river. Sometimes I'd go home and take my dog out for a long, nice walk. On weekends, my wife and I love going to the woods, enjoy ourselves. When not, I take my motorbike or bicycle and go find a quiet place to read an interesting book. Often times, I'll take my wife and we will go to a nice café and sit outside, drinking the best latte in town while sitting in the sun. Oh and I forgot going to watch the kids play with their local team - it's so much more pleasant when weather is warm.

I could go on, but I guess you get the idea. There IS life outside and reducing it to working and commuting seems the saddest thing ever.

I grew up with 90 degree summers, and frankly, I find the heat to be amazing. Anything under 50 is downright unpleasant. I curse every moment of being outside when it's near or below freezing.

I realize this is only a personal anecdote, but I bet there are people out there just like me (and on all parts of the spectrum).

Plus I can run way faster when it is 20 out vs 100. Snow running rocks. Sun running is awful.

For me, living in the Northeast US, this is a sore point. Even more important than the cold temps or snow on the ground.

There are some alleviating actions one can take, like full spectrum lights, vitamins D etc., but they can never come close to the real deal. If sunnier places with dry, comfortable year around weather were a real and practical option, I'd move overnight, but am unable to move just yet due to family + affordability reasons.

I enjoy running in the baking heat, soaking in the sun. My lungs don't get seared from the biting cold, and I can breathe. The feeling of evaporating sweat is glorious and invigorating; the shirt is optional.

I appreciate your personal opinion and experience, though. :)

We may have come from Africa, but it was during the ice age that we really got going as a species. Rapid climate change forced us to develop improved tools and technology to survive. This eventually led to farming, agriculture, cities and modern civilization.

Without the cold, we'd probably have been quite happy staying in the trees.

If you need the booze, you need the bees, if you need the bees, you need to stay for the summer. If you want a year round supply you need storage, if you have storage that is not transportable, you have settled.

If you cultivate plants, you can up the numbers and found city states- but for that you allready have to be half way settled. Else that nomadic sheep guy from across the fence will drive his cattle through your fields.

Have lived in Phoenix since 2003.

I curse at the Daystar about half the year

I wish there were more tech in places where it got cold in the winter, where you see fireflies and thundersnow* and deciduous trees. I like seasons. I like cold. I really miss the northeast.

* Yes, Buffalo has that

20F with dry air and no wind is GORGEOUS. You can easily spend the day outside and, if you keep moving, wear only a long sleeve tee-shirt and long pants. (People who live here know enough to keep a sweatshirt or coat nearby for sundown.) Some of my most memorable outdoor experiences come in this type of weather where we'll be active by day and sit by a backyard fire at night.

The larger issues in the Northeast are the lack of sunlight and municipalities often don't handle the clean up of snow and ice well. My experience is that northern New England knows how to handle clean up, but southern New England is a deathtrap for walking and driving due to untreated ice and snow piled to the sides of already narrow roads.

A few years ago I travelled to Anaheim for a conference in Winter/early Spring. For the heck of it I took a short vacation in LA after the conference. For 3 days I walked around Silver Lake, Los Feliz, and Echo Park. My energy levels soared. I can understand why people like living in that climate. I'd love to experience living in it sometime.