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Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by iamleppert on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @07:44PM (#12214316)
Has Verizon actually had any happy content customers? Every time a carrier tries to go into content creation they try to do it on the cheap and force their monolithic soul-sucking corporate culture onto creative types and it never has worked.

People don't want to work for Verizon, or Comcast, or other such companies. They treat their employees like dirt, and are generally unconcerned with user experience, doing things the right way, and view customer service as a cost center.

All of their products have been developed in a centrifuge of "just good enough" with an eye toward minimizing effort and maximizing profits. Its entirely a cultural thing set by the leadership of these companies and will not change until there is a fundamental (albeit unlikely) shift in leadership at the top.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rdtsc on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @09:50PM (#12214990)
> had any happy content customers?

Not me. They got us a FIOS deal when we got our house. I used them for 2 years. Super fiber speed, except they would throttle youtube. So here I was paying to this supposedly superior quality and speed and getting throttled by them. So I dropped them and switched to a plain old cable provider (just for internet, we don't really watch tv anymore). Cut my costs more than half. On paper the speed is lower, however, the latency and lack of throttling for things like Youtube and other media is better.

Now since Verizon installed their equipment on our premises, they keep coming back every few months, in person -- as in they have someone drive out to our door, begging us to come back. They even offered to match the price we pay for cable currently (but it is always some stupid 2 year contract thing, that I know will go throught the roof when the time is passed).

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by ec109685 on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @11:19PM (#12215336)
Do you have cites for throttling YouTube? That seems entirely terrible for retaining users.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rdtsc on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @11:31PM (#12215379)
Other people apparently had (still have?) these issues:

https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/youtube/CPW7r...

http://lifehacker.com/use-a-vpn-to-bypass-your-isps-throttli...

You can search for more. While it could be a coincidence that somehow after switching poviders Youtube fixed their servers at the same time and got faster, I'd have to believe it was because of Verizon.

Someone from a Verizon forum remember mentioned, defending them, it could have been Google not paying for peering with Verizon enough. But I consider that still Verizon's fault. I don't really care about the details, I was paying a hefty sum to Verizon for Internet connectivity and not getting it. However they setup their peering agreements is their problem, I pay to not have to know that.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by slv77 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:59AM (#12217924)
Comcast and Verizion discovered they could use their monopoly position to sell both ends of the pipe.

Comcast I know went through and systematically shut down private interchanges with major content providers and also refused to upgrade public peering points. There were some peering points that we're seeing 10%+ packet loss. The result was terrible performance to any provider who didn't buy "internet access" from Comcast even when the only access that was needed was to Comcast's own customers.

A friend worked as a peering coordinator for a major content provider at the time and nobody had ever asked to be paid to deliver content to their own customers before. This created a standoff and I'm not sure how it ended but I believe the content providers caved.

Of course I'm pretty sure this is what was the spurred Google Fiber. One thing that Google seems really good at is to ensure that nobody can use their monopoly position to cut them off from the customer (Android, Chrome, Fiber).

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by hexane360 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @02:36PM (#12220320)
Yeah, Google is very good at vertical integration. Make sure it's competing a little in all areas.

http://insidertestprep.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Vertic...

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by jballer on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @12:57AM (#12215686)
Time Warner Cable in NC throttled it for me. I was only able to watch YouTube in HD through my school's VPN. How backwards is that?
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by tajen on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @03:09AM (#12216183)
I can watch YouTube in real time with little latency and no buffeting on 3G. Any landline not matching that is a scam.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by strider12 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:31AM (#12217424)
Comcast throttled me. Basically in mid 2000's i paid about $60 for internet and no issues, then couple years ago i noticed severe throttling for youtube and other sites. Then I upgraded to their business class for about $110 a month for the same speeds and no throttling. They were playing games. It's BS.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by callalex on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @03:38PM (#12220853)
Using a VPN is a much cheaper solution with the same results, with the added bonus of less tracking from Comcast.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by ma2rten on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @07:32AM (#12217195)
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by monkmartinez on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @11:38PM (#12215408)
Google "ISP throttle youtube"... it is not hard to imagine isp's doing this a few years ago. My perception of youtube buffering "all. the. time." wasn't that long ago. I am relatively certain Comcast was throttling at the time, but I don't think they are these days.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rayiner on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @11:28PM (#12215371)
I've never noticed any throttling on YouTube (I've had FiOS in Baltimore and now in D.C.). I get a rock solid 140 mbps on Netflix's fast.com, even during primetime. 140/170 on speedtest.com.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by cmdrfred on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @12:23AM (#12215570)
150 meg connection in Philly here. 155 mbps steady from fast.com and speed test both directions over WiFi. Not a single outage in a year.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by dawnerd on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @01:14AM (#12215755)
anecdotal but when I had fios they were doing some odd routing for youtube which made it appear that they were throttling, when in reality it was likely a bad peering agreement.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by kpil on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @03:09AM (#12216184)
As a consumer you sort of pay to get access to YouTube, Netflix etc.

The money should flow from the carrier to the content providers, but they saw them initially as a nuisance and later as leechers, despite that they are essentially the product that the carriers are selling and getting paid for in the first place, and they are getting it for free.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by driverdan on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:00AM (#12217931)
I hate the "ISP X throttles Service Y" meme. It's not throttling, it's bad peering. Very different but the outcome is similar.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by spacemanmatt on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @12:06PM (#12218972)
Verizon is one of the ISPs that engaged/engages in intentional removal of peering connections. Netflix is a signature example of this.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by lanaius on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:55AM (#12217893)
Since it seems like most responses misunderstood your question, I will say that I've never been entirely pleased with "startup" content creation. Netflix and Amazon do fine, but Yahoo's offerings outside of picking up Community were rather weak. Hulu's original offerings are not great. Comcast produces some things under the Universal label (or NBC) so it's hard for me to tell what "Comcast" is making versus the purchased entities. I guess AT&T has a whole network on DirecTV but I don't know the quality of their shows. I suspect that Verizon's offerings are going to be completely disposable given their usage model and rate of production, probably similar to Youtube Red's exclusive offerings - good if you already care for that sort of stuff.

Reality TV aside, my general view is that most companies that view original/exclusive streaming media as an "add-on" versus a core competency are more likely to buy in cheap and rebroadcast ideas that were already popular, chasing the trends, and delivering less enduring quality than typical TV/cable stations. For streaming media it's more about cramming as much (exclusive) garbage as you can, and having enough videos that someone can always find something to pass the time on your service. Traditional TV can only offer you one piece of content at a time, so they at least make some effort to put budget and thought behind the quality, even if they often miss.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by Unklejoe on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:48AM (#12217517)
My FiOS internet has been good to me. It's always able to achieve the BW specified by them, and there is no throttling/cap. I've even been running a web server for years without any issues (you aren't supposed to do that with a residential connection).

Comcast, on the other hand, has bandwidth caps at 250 GB, but I think they recently raised them to 1 TB. However, even 1 TB isn't huge by today's standards, especially with everything migrating towards the "cloud".

However, The FiOS TV service isn’t that great. The standard definition boxes are so slow that they are unusable and tend to simply break every year or so (gets stuck in a boot loop and flashes “FPGA” on the front display, which is kind of interesting). The HD boxes are much better, but I don’t want to spend the money. Also, it’s expensive, but I doubt Comcast is any better. They probably compete very tightly with each other in areas where both are available.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by chadgeidel on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @12:37PM (#12219266)
I've heard about the Comcast bandwidth cap and it's my opinion that is only for the "lowest tier" of service. I've got the "middle tier" (there are so many levels I don't know where I lie) and use way more than 250 every month. I've never received a notice - not even the one month where I was over 1 TB.

YMMV, Anecdote != data, etc.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by crispyambulance on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @06:32AM (#12216982)
> had any happy content customers?

Not me. Verizon upsold my elderly mother for a bunch of crap services she didn't need or have use for (a "bundle"). Their customer sales, like Comcast's, is nothing more than a slimy boiler-room operation.

Luckily, I was able to back her out of the plan with a solid hour on the phone and a careful appeal to the humanity of the customer service rep.

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rhino369 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @12:40AM (#12215621)
Fios and Verizon cdma/LTE are the best mass deployed communication networks compared to their domestic peers. They are expensive, but their service delivers. I'm very happy with fios. I pay 60 bucks for 75 up and down, and almost always get 80 up and down.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by vetinari on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @06:17AM (#12216922)
Well, it seems to me that you are overpaying. I'm paying 15 EUR for 250 down and 100 up for the FTTH service (GPON terminal in my cabinet), and the ISP (Orange) even has its own Youtube cache.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rhino369 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:04PM (#12222683)
Is there some huge subsidy going on in your country? That's well below the cost for any feasible fiber deployment in Ameirca. You'd have to use slaves to get it for about 20 bucks.

Or is it 15 euro on top of your phone and tv?

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by vetinari on Friday August 05, 2016 @05:54AM (#12231054)
No, without subsidy, without phone and TV, data only (non-shaped, non-filtered, public and dynamic IP if you have IPv4 service, /56 subnet and DS-Lite if you have IPv6 service).

However, this is not a price you would get when you walk in - the price list is 17 EUR for 250/15, upping upload to 100 is 5, upping upload to 250 (from 15, not 100) would be 15. Additional fees if you want TV or phone, or static IP.

This network has been in operation for years - I've been customer for 9 years already, hence the lower price. In the beginning, it was slower of course, about 40/10, but I imagine the network has already paid for itself.

The reason why it is was built in the first place were bad conditions for accessing DSLAMs operated by our ILEC at the time - T-Com. It was impossible for any ISP to offer flat-rate DSL, because the ILEC was asking for data-based charges, quite high at that. So Orange threw it the towel, built its own optical network, set the prices as another DSL providers, but with order of magnitude faster speeds with no data caps - and had a runaway success with it. The other big ISP were in shock, but to remain competitive they quickly built their own FTTH networks, or at least upgraded their HFC (UPC). So in the end we have a cheap Internet thanks to T-Com greed :).

Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by amazon_not on Thursday August 04, 2016 @03:55AM (#12224098)
I don't believe Orange is receiving any subsidy to build or operate its networks. It's more likely that this is in one of the Eastern European countries where the cost of living is lower and prices like these are the norm.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rocqua on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @06:29AM (#12216972)
Those are some good prices. I am paying €40 for 50/50. I could get a lower price at a slightly worse ISP, but nothing in that range.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by cpfohl on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @07:44AM (#12217248)
Yeah, welcome to the USA where you pay more for worse internet.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by diafygi on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @01:06AM (#12215729)
I'm on T-mobile now, but when I was at a previous job that had to work out of a ton of backwoods locations, everyone on the job used Verizon. The huge push they had to expand coverage everywhere combined with the 700Mhz LTE bands they got to ensure good quality through long distances and obstructions, a lot of the people who don't work in big cities love Verizon because it works. As much as I hate their shady practices, they aren't going to be beat in their core market until someone else offers better coverage and reliability.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by rhino369 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:09PM (#12222696)
Yep I'm on vacation in the backwoods. My personal T-Mobile phone doesn't get any coverage. Luckily my firm let me borrow a Verizon hotspot. Though tmo just deployed a 700mhz network, but my phone doesn't have the LTE band on the baseband chip.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by shanacarp on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @08:22PM (#12214500)
it is a brave new world for them....but...they acknowledge their problems....unlike many carriers
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by ngoede on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:30AM (#12217419)
I am reasonably okay with my FIOS service. But only really in comparison to the hell that Comcast put me through. I am sure at some point Verizon will fuck it up. Too bad I am out of providers to try.
Re:Verizon: We Can't Become Dumb Pipes by maxxxxx on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @11:24PM (#12215353)
I had FIOS with them for a while. It was really stable with constant bandwidth, much better than my experience with cable. But I never had any real interaction with them.