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Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by intrasight on Sunday July 17, 2016 @06:26PM (#12112180)
This is something I'd posted previously on HN:

I worked at Kodak as a summer intern in '85. Was the era of the disk camera. Was also my first programming job. Lotus 1-2-3.

Most people today can't comprehend the scale of American manufacturing as it still was at that time. The Elmgrove plant where I worked (one of a dozen facilities in the Rochester area) has over 14 thousand employees. Our start and end times were staggered in 7 minute increments to manage traffic flow.

That none of that would exist 20 years later was inconceivable at the time. The word "disruption" wasn't in business vocabulary. Nor was the phrase "made in China". Some senior technical managers saw the "digital" writing on the wall. But what could they do? What could anyone do? There was no way to turn that aircraft carrier on a dime.

At the end of my summer internship, I attended a presentation that our small team gave to more senior managers at the top of Kodak Tower in the conference room adjacent to President Chandler's office. One of the managers took me to the window and pointed out to me different plants and facilities of the vast Kodak empire spread out across the Rochester region. I assumed like many that Kodak had a bright future ahead because they had a world-renowned brand and excellent scientists and engineers. What many at the time didn't yet recognize was that there was no business model in digital cameras that would employ 100 thousand engineers, managers, factory workers, technicians, and staff. There were certainly no senior managers willing or able to sacrifice the golden goose of film to pursue something entirely different.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by tim333 on Sunday July 17, 2016 @07:20PM (#12112391)
>What could anyone do?

One of the best discussions of this kind of issue I've read was Warren Buffet on the shutdown of Berkshire Hathaway's textile business. Berkshire was a textile business when he bought it which faced a decline similar to that of Kodak's film business. His answer, to reallocate capital to completely different businesses that were healthy. It was kind of what Fuji did when they switched from film to cosmetics and Buffett's reallocations allowed Berkshire to do very well rather than going bust.

The discussion is in the 85 letter if you scroll down to "Shutdown of Textile Business." http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1985.html

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by sedachv on Sunday July 17, 2016 @10:19PM (#12112915)
That is my favorite piece of Buffet's writing, for a different reason:

> Over the years, we had the option of making large capital expenditures in the textile operation that would have allowed us to somewhat reduce variable costs. Each proposal to do so looked like an immediate winner.

> But the promised benefits from these textile investments were illusory. Many of our competitors, both domestic and foreign, were stepping up to the same kind of expenditures and, once enough companies did so, their reduced costs became the baseline for reduced prices industrywide.

This is a great illustration of why capitalism is not inherently innovational. If it is cheaper to exploit workers than to automate, the market will exploit workers instead of automating.

I am not so sure Kodak had any other developed businesses where they could have re-allocated so much capital. Something similar seems to be happening with Yahoo now.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by intrasight on Monday July 18, 2016 @12:19AM (#12113204)
In a sense they did - with Eastman Chemicals, which was also founded by George Eastman and which was spun off in 1994? It is a Fortune 500 company with around 20,000 employees.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by VLM on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:03AM (#12114792)
One way to survive international competition is to ship heavy bulk stuff. I clicked around Eastman's site and reading between the lines their revenue is about $9B and figure a buck per pound accurate to one sig fig so they're shipping maybe ten billion pounds of product annually.

Now China's entire export economy to the entire world is only thirty-something million TEU annually. Figure 50K pounds cargo per TEU and compare, and if I did the math right in my head, one obscure lube oil and plastic resin company sells about 1% of China's total worldwide export capacity.

(All of the above is accurate to about one sig fig, and if China has finally topped 40 megaTEU thats all very nice but doesn't fundamentally change the conclusion anyway)

I mean, that's not realistic to ship across the planet, just too much of it, too heavy, global shipping isn't "big enough" to eat low value product.

Now something high value per pound like photographic film, Kodak would be out of business today in the USA anyway even if film were still in business. Ready to use photo film has a high enough dollar per pound density to be worth shipping across the world.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by dharmon on Monday July 18, 2016 @11:14AM (#12115523)
Taking this to the geographic extreme, some of the most competitively solid businesses are things where you just can't move the product very far. I'm thinking quarries* and trash.

*The exception being highly sought after material not available nearby.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by AceJohnny2 on Monday July 18, 2016 @10:21PM (#12119138)
That's an incredibly clearly written letter. It's amazing. If only more businesses communicated that way. But then of course most have reasons to obfuscate the situation...
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by thisjustinm on Sunday July 17, 2016 @10:23PM (#12112930)
> Most people today can't comprehend the scale of American manufacturing as it still was at that time.

This.

During my seven years at the Windsor, CO Kodak plant (see my other comment below for more) it was crazy to hear of the heyday (I was there 2002-2009, not the heyday). It was the 2nd largest Kodak manufacturing center (bested only by Rochester) and built in the 60s. It was a sprawling campus of huge concrete buildings with almost no windows (great for film!). The campus had it's own fire department and power plant.

It was a ghost of it's former self when I started but by the time I left entire buildings were vacant. At it's peak the plant had 3,200 employees. A lot of people there had worked in Rochester and from their stories I could hardly fathom the manufacturing operation there being so much larger than ours.

Maybe that's part of the reason Kodak moved so slow - all those buildings and people and essentially small factory cities are not something you can change overnight.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by djsumdog on Monday July 18, 2016 @01:11AM (#12113325)
There are still big plants in the US. The Volkswagen plant in South East Tennessee (thought nowhere near the scale of the plant you mentioned).

But they do exist in China. Plants in some cities dump sludge into wastelands the size of lakes. Some factories are small towns unto themselves where people work, sleep and live on company property.

We still need to the scale Kodak had for their market at the time, but economics has moved it overseas and the market is totally different.

It's still consumerism though, and a frightening scale. It's just abstracted away from most of the western world, so we don't see it.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by ethbro on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:21AM (#12114611)
Also notable that manufacturing at scale (including Kodak) has the side effect of leaving behind environmentally problematic Superfund sites. There's no way you're ever going to be able to compete with someone willing and able to externalize more costs than you.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by starky on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @01:45AM (#12119994)
It isn't that some factories have people work, sleep, and live there, that is the standard of how factories operate over there. Most workers are from outside of the area, so they provide all this for them in addition to pay that they send back to the family in other provinces. Even the engineers I've worked with at these companies often live in the dorms during the week, even though they may have apartments elsewhere.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by GFK_of_xmaspast on Sunday July 17, 2016 @06:36PM (#12112223)
The way I remember 1985 is that "made in China" wasn't a phrase but "made in Japan" absolutely was, see forex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gung_Ho_%28film%29 and reckon that that didn't get made in a vacuum.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by alister on Sunday July 17, 2016 @08:51PM (#12112668)
Not only was "made in Japan" established by 1985, but it was already thought to be superior in popular culture:

In Back to the Future Part III, Dr. Emmett "Doc" Brown--the 1955 version of himself--discovers that the DeLorean time machine car has broken down because of a faulty chip made in 1985.

Doc Brown: Unbelievable that this little piece of junk could be such a big problem. No wonder this circuit failed. It says, "Made in Japan."

Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan."

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by rasz_pl on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:13AM (#12114831)
That might be a cute joke, but a better indication would be VHS camera used in the first Back to the future movie - 1984 made in Japan JVC GR-C1. The cool innovative tech gizmo wasnt US made.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by dredmorbius on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:18AM (#12113620)
This probably isn't the most valid use of Google's Ngram viewer, but it looks as if "Made in Japan" started taking off about 1980, "Made in Taiwan" slightly earlier, but on a lower trajectory, and "Made in China" really in 1993.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=made+in+China%...

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by grkvlt on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:08PM (#12117385)
It is interesting though. I wonder why Japan peaked in 1991? Perhaps as simple as the start of the Chinese ascendancy in exports, and from then onwards 'Made in China' just gradually replaced 'Made in Japan' for the pejorative sense of the phrase, which is why it has now returned to pre-1980 levels, which would be a simple factual usage of the phrase?
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by mateo411 on Monday July 18, 2016 @07:21PM (#12118566)
The Japanese economy went into a big recession in the early 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by flyinghamster on Sunday July 17, 2016 @08:51PM (#12112667)
My own memory of 1985 was that "Made in China" was just starting to get off the ground. Example: at the time, Black & Decker had bought out GE's small home appliance division. I had a Black & Decker-branded hair dryer (that had been a GE product beforehand) and was rather surprised to see "Made in China" on it. I felt it to be a bit ominous even at the time, never mind that products imported from Japan, Taiwan, etc. were already commonplace.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by starky on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @01:49AM (#12120013)
According to the data I've seen, the first huge growth in Shenzhen was centered on 1983, with the biggest peak coming around 1991.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by flukus on Sunday July 17, 2016 @11:18PM (#12113071)
I think it was "made in Taiwan" around then. Japan was a rich, developed nation and investment into China proper hadn't really started.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by bostik on Monday July 18, 2016 @02:03AM (#12113437)
There was another one: "made in Hong Kong".

I remember seeing that in various things, ever since my father pointed it out. It was common enough to exist in daily lingo.

Most of the time it was a synonym for cheap knock-offs.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by smcl on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:17AM (#12113619)
I also remember seeing "Made in Macau" on the bottom of little toy cars I played with when I was a kid, as well as other cheap toys and things. Bit of a contrast to today where Macau is the Vegas of the east
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by dredmorbius on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:20AM (#12113627)
Macau didn't seem to be a big player relatively:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=made+in+China%...

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by grkvlt on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:03PM (#12117356)
Macau has been the Vegas of the East (or, the Monte Carlo of the East) for a long time - Portugal made gambling legal there in 1850 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_Macau
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by rosege on Sunday July 17, 2016 @08:40PM (#12112636)
downsizing was also introduced around then - during the time of James Goldsmith and the corporate raiders
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by maxwell on Sunday July 17, 2016 @09:09PM (#12112715)
> But what could they do?

Could they have bought NeXT in the mid '90s? Then maybe we'd all be walking around with a "smartcam" that also makes calls.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by T0T0R0 on Sunday July 17, 2016 @10:22PM (#12112927)
I mean, yeah, coulda, woulda, shoulda... but those sorts of alternate histories require some kind of A Priori knowledge that NeXT might become an incredible company, beyond that, augmenting the path of a company like NeXT will contaminate the timeline, provoking unpredictable ripple effects in the subsequent continuum. If Skynet kills John Connor, what will the machine world look like? What happens if Marty listens to Needles, and accepts his dare again??? (:

Without divining, based on now-known realities, that they had no insight into, what could have been done?

Apple's total disintegration isn't entirely imaginable at this precise moment, but planning for some dreaded rainy day, what disaster strategies could they use to anticipate a total failure of their bread and butter?

Microsoft probably IS facing this scenario. What can they do?

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by intrasight on Monday July 18, 2016 @12:33AM (#12113230)
Good point on the "timeline contamination". We like to say that "hindsight is 20/20" - which implies that if one could go back in time, one could take advantage of that future knowledge without changing that future outcome. I could say that if I went back in time to the early 90s and bought a bunch of Apple stock for like $5/share that I'd not change the future. But what if I got greedy and bought a significant percentage?

I do agree with your assessment of AAPL vs MSFT. Apple has ingrained itself into the fabric of our personal lives in a way that would be very hard to challenge. Microsoft never achieved that - because it was run by corporate sales folk.

Apple's undoing, if anything, will be from being to greedy.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by T0T0R0 on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:23AM (#12113987)
Regarding the current contrast between apparent states of Apple and Microsoft, I'd say Apple could be reduced to an identical state in a matter of six months by any other company coming out of the woodwork with some new, fully realized product the general public hasn't seen before. It's not innately reasonable to divine what such a product might be.

Meanwhile, consider that Microsoft was very strong in 2003, but through a few minor misteps, just missed the boat on a some key changes in technology. Then, when the things that killed their advantageous position finally made an appearance, they refused to give chase. Why they failed to jump on the new bandwagons, and how their own boat started taking on water, has a complex story of its own.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by summarite on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:47PM (#12124768)
I'm not sure why you all think Microsoft has big problems. They still have the corporate and public sector, largely even the education market cornered. They are hugely profitable and right now taking crazy-looking but probably not exactly stupid steps towards changing their consumer business model.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by T0T0R0 on Thursday July 21, 2016 @11:33PM (#12141560)
Well, from the consumer perspective, their most visible and obvious source of relevance, they've got barely anything worth talking about, and everything they've bought up, people are holding their breath waiting for corporate inertia to contaminate and ruin.

But yeah all that business, corporate, government, enterprise activity is probably plenty more than just life support. It's not like I read shareholder earnings reports or anything, though.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by leoc on Sunday July 17, 2016 @10:58PM (#12113025)
Also: rich uncle Xerox did own PARC, and it didn't end up saving the company.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by dredmorbius on Sunday July 17, 2016 @11:10PM (#12113056)
I was somewhat staggered in the late 1990s reading John Sealy Brown (former PARC director), in The Social Life of Information, which is otherwise and excellent book and one I'd still recommend, that the grand-daddy of technical reproduction businesses completely failed to mention its biggest competitor, the Apache Webserver, anywhere in the book (there was brief mention of the World Wide Web).

I've worked with some of Xerox's workhorse printers, multi-hundred-thousand-dollar systems that can crank out 120 prints per minute, sustained (hot-swappable paper trays, so you don't even have to stop to reload). But all of those were already being dwarfed in document presentation by a freely-available arrangement of software, with a $1,000 - $10,000 piece of server kit capable of kicking out millions of pages per day. A large print shop with several workhorse printers might make 1 million copies/day.

And at a fraction the cost.

Yeah, Xerox completely dropped the ball.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by intrasight on Monday July 18, 2016 @12:35AM (#12113234)
Rent-seeking behaviour is not sustainable in a functioning capitalist society. But it can be very lucrative while it lasts, and it only has to last until you retire.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by TorKlingberg on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:38AM (#12114044)
How is selling printers rent seeking?
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by mathgeek on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:37AM (#12114672)
Xerox derives much of its income from contracts rather than selling printers directly. They rent you the printer and charge you per page printed.

Source: worked tech support for better part of the 2000's and had to get Xerox printers on our networks often. Spent a lot of time updating settings when the contracts renewed and new printers were leased.

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by TorKlingberg on Monday July 18, 2016 @10:40AM (#12115281)
That sounds like something their customers want, whether you think they should or not.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by mathgeek on Monday July 18, 2016 @02:51PM (#12117273)
That's essentially what I found in my time working with them. This was public sector so the idea of budgeting the hardware cost as a lease and paying per print really appealed to the administration.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by dredmorbius on Monday July 18, 2016 @06:22AM (#12114186)
Possibly exploiting patents.Though Xerox lost out on much of that to IIRC Toshiba.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by verinus on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:59AM (#12114116)
If I hat to bet on any of the two, I would bet on Microsoft. They have standard Products used in businesses all over the world. Corporations moving much slower than trends I think Apple is in much more danger...
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by etangent on Sunday July 17, 2016 @11:42PM (#12113125)
> What many at the time didn't yet recognize was that there was no business model in digital cameras that would employ 100 thousand engineers, managers, factory workers, technicians, and staff

I believe you meant to say "that there was a business model".

Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by intrasight on Monday July 18, 2016 @12:11AM (#12113189)
No, I really meant "there was no business model". The film and film cameras supported many of those hundred thousand employees. Let's assume that 30K of them were in the film camera areas. Kodak, as a company that markets digital cameras built in China, would support perhaps 1000 employees in that endevour. A big drop. What Kodak ended up doing mostly was just license the brand name. Probably didn't even need 1000 employees for that.
Re:Ask HN: Insider history of the demise of Kodak? by ernestbro on Monday July 18, 2016 @02:44AM (#12113540)
Kodak failed because the entire verticalized printed photo industry was demonetized. It's the same way the newspaper industry has shrunk: yes people still take pictures and read news, no there isn't an obvious way for large companies to extract value as there used to be. Printing chemicals and large printing presses are very expensive and hard to reproduce, meanwhile while digital comes along and easily replaces them. And if Instagram dies 10 others can take their place.