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Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by bmmayer1 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @11:16AM (#12065856)
It's completely plausible that the post-Brexit Deutsche Bank is undervalued by the market due to panic and uncertainty, and Snapchat is overvalued by the market due to hype.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by jakozaur on Sunday July 10, 2016 @11:41AM (#12065934)
In 2007 there was viral video suggesting that Facebook is overvalued at $15bln comparing to Ford: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I6IQ_FOCE6I

Lets see how the story will unfold.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by mysterypie on Sunday July 10, 2016 @12:32PM (#12066132)
> Lets see how the story will unfold

You left it unstated that Facebook is now worth $283bln more than Ford. So, yes, the video looks silly for crying wolf back in 2007.

But I'm at a loss to draw the correct conclusion from this. Is it rational that Facebook is now worth 6x as much as Ford?

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by GCA10 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:13PM (#12066268)
On Facebook v. Ford, in terms of how shareholder value gets built and sustained, yes, the market is being as rational as it ever gets. Consider the following five dimensions:

CREATING THE PRODUCT: Facebook's engineers provide the framework, but each day's content is created free of charge by 1.5 billion active users. That's great for profit margins! At Ford, cars don't get built unless the company buys steel, glass, tires, etc. and pays workers to put it all together. That really squeezes margins.

GENERATING DEMAND: Facebook's users share content and invite their friends to join, at no cost. Media companies beg to play in Facebook's ecosystem. By contrast, Ford needs to spend billions on advertising to get people excited about cars.

OBLIGATIONS TO CUSTOMERS: Facebook has a modest-sized fraud and security team that keeps everything tidy. They do heroic work, but there aren't 50,000 of them. At Ford, the requirements for inspections, safety tests, recalls, legal settlements when vehicles go bad, etc. are vastly larger.

OBSOLESCENCE: Ford has $58 billion invested in plant and equipment. Every day, those factories get a little closer to being obsolete. Ford must constantly either raise cash or reinvest profits to keep its factories competitive. That means less free cash for shareholders. By contrast, Facebook has just $8 billion invested in server farms, beautiful headquarters, etc. Its asset-maintenance burden is vastly less -- and should stay that way forever.

MAKING MONEY: Ford's net income zigzags all over the place, jolted by lots of market/economic issues. Net income was down last year; historically it's ranged from $11 billion to sizable losses. Facebook's net income totaled $3.7 billion last year and is climbing at a very snappy rate. 35% a year? Doubling? Still hard to tell, but it keeps going up.

Put all those factors together, and Facebook is a growth stock with a pretty straightforward path to making its business hum. Ford is a cyclical stock that may have already posted its peak profits. Ford may be a bedrock part of the U.S. economy, but that doesn't always get you a lot of love in the stock market, for reasons above. Yeah, Ford has $150 billion in revenue a year and Facebook had just $18 billion. But markets value companies on their growth prospects. I've got no trouble believing that Facebook's overall opportunity to make money is 6x better than Ford's.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by duncanawoods on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:15PM (#12066525)
Shouldn't this analysis include the level of risk unique to a social network i.e. a usenet/myspace/digg/frendster crash?

Businesses that rely on and grow from network effects, die from them too at an even faster rate. A scandal or rival product could take FB to zero. Some would say that history tells us it is FB's inevitable outcome. I know some believe that it can't happen and the FB is "the last social network" but that sounds a little bit like bubble participants claiming "this time its different".

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by jasonjei on Sunday July 10, 2016 @05:14PM (#12067303)
If anything, Ford is facing many viable competitors than FB with respect to traditional and EV cars.

The warning signs of FB rising were apparent for years, but the News Corp managed MySpace did nothing to curb its rise.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by heurist on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:38PM (#12066630)
They'll switch to business intelligence in that case (like Foursquare). They've got enough data to last them lifetimes.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by jsemrau on Sunday July 10, 2016 @09:11PM (#12068223)
Interesting that you mentioned Foursquare. I considered them a has been for such a long time and only recently realized that they are still around being the geolocation API provider for a bunch of products. Successful pivot, I think.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by WorldMaker on Monday July 11, 2016 @04:43PM (#12074398)
My assumption was that it was never really a pivot. It seemed that the geolocation API was always their primary strategy. I thought that was why it continues to be odd that so much of Foursquare's usage and network loss seems attributable to their own consumer confusing actions to split out the social network part into a new brand (Swarm) instead of the other way around.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by cheez on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:40PM (#12066938)
They'll keep buying out competitors. It's the smart move.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by james-watson on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:52PM (#12066421)
Great analysis but you left out one major point: Facebook is a monopoly in it's market segment, whereas Ford is one of many fierce competitors.

As such, Facebook takes all the profit from social media advertising, and can set its own prices and dictate terms to its customers. Ford can afford to do no such thing.

If Ford were the only auto maker in the world, it would be a far more lucrative investment.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by lvs on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:22PM (#12066301)
Snore. It's just advertising. If internet advertising is overvalued, then SV company valuations are dramatically too high.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by GCA10 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @04:02PM (#12067041)
Anything's possible, but the "It's just X" argument can be invoked so universally that I'm not sure it adds to the conversation.

ExxonMobil is just oil. WalMart is just department stores. Visa is just credit cards. All those companies have top-20 valuations. It's possible to come up with a doomsday scenario for any industry ... but by and large, once they get really big, they tend to persist in some form.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by vecter on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:33PM (#12066899)
Google is "just advertising". What's your point?
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by lvs on Sunday July 10, 2016 @04:54PM (#12067223)
I made my point. If internet advertising is an overvalued sector of the economy -- which it most certainly is -- then all your favorite companies need new business models. What more do you want to hear?
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by nl on Sunday July 10, 2016 @11:34PM (#12068710)
Why do you think internet advertising is overvalued?

It is only this year that internet advertising is projected to match TV advertising spend. TV advertising has been around ~50 years, and before that we have another ~100 years of print advertising to learn from.

From those historic precedents we can see that advertising is a huge, huge market. It is true that something could surpass internet advertising as the best way to spend that money, but I don't see any viable candidates (I'm including mobile & VR ads in "internet").

AdBlockers - of course - accelerate the trend of the money in the "internet" category going to players like FB where they control the delivery mechanism (ie, deliver ads in a mobile app, where an ad blocker can't reach it on most platforms).

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by 03pxkexce5 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @05:43PM (#12067402)
And if cars are overvalued, then Ford needs a new business model. Kind of a tautology there.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by lvs on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:00PM (#12067685)
There is no tautology and no conflict. Both would be true statements of their conditional claims were true. The trouble is that internet advertising is far more likely to be overvalued than cars are. I think everyone in the thread knows this and is just being a bit difficult for some rhetorical purpose.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by 03pxkexce5 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:07PM (#12067707)
Perhaps I am wrong about this, but it was my impression that increases in internet advertising revenue were mainly based on increased volume, not higher prices. I don't see any reason volume should drop when more and more consumers are using the internet and spending more time on it.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by lvs on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:45PM (#12067846)
Consumers don't buy advertising. Companies do. Consumers don't want advertising at all, and they don't really understand that all their tech products/services are subsidized by ad revenue. Would they pay recurring fees for those products/services without an ad subsidy? Some would, but most won't. So if and when companies (that actually produce something) decide that their investment is better spent outside of search and social media, and if consumers don't then fund those products directly, it will be like an earthquake in SF. This is exactly what happened to newspapers, by the way.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by 03pxkexce5 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @08:51PM (#12068129)
Internet advertising spending replaced newspaper advertising. What is going to replace internet advertising? VR? Those ads will probably still be sold by FB and Google.

To me, Google and FB's PE ratios are sensible, taking into account current profits, continuing growth in the short and medium term, and uncertainty in the long run.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by coldtea on Sunday July 10, 2016 @05:50PM (#12067423)
The insight the parent offered though is pointing out the tautology in the former case. Because while everyone knows Ford == cars, lots of people see SV/Google and miss that most of it is in the selling ads business and much less in selling tech.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by cm2187 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:59PM (#12066455)
Plus advertising aren't exactly the most stable form of revenues in a downturn. Some investors will be in for a harsh awaking at the next bear market.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by adventured on Sunday July 10, 2016 @09:12PM (#12068234)
That very much depends on the context of the ad business in question. What stage it's at in terms of expansion and so on. Google zoomed right through the great recession, growing its advertising business while most businesses were struggling. As far as Google's business was concerned, the great recession hardly happened at all.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by dredmorbius on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:36PM (#12066617)
That's a good list, though I'd add a few caveats / contras to it.

Your "Creating the Product" and "Generating Demand" elements synergise off one another. Facebook has considerable network effects, and those network effects stimulate content, but break the chain, or boil-off customers (see "The Evaporative Cooling Effect"), and the feedback's strongly negative all the way down. MySpace imploded quite rapidly. Google's G+ had some traction initially, but worked exceptionally hard to drive off its strongest fans. Those who are slower to learn (/me raises hand) are only now being convinced of our error.

But "Obsolescence" is the big one. Ford's plant degrades from the inside, and the rate of amortisation of manufacturing equipment is fairly well known. Innovation in automobiles peaked in the 1920s, though it's arguable that there were additional spurts in the 1970s (largely around economy), 1990s (quality and electronic controls), and now a possible shift to hybrid or electric vehicles, though those remain tiny portions of the entire market (highly visible, but still tiny by either unit count or, slightly less so due to much higher per-unit costs, currency marketshare).

Ford, along with other US automakers was blindsided when a very modest amount of market innovation, toward more efficient vehicles, hit in the 1970s. That was an exogenous obsolesence function.

Facebook and other technologies face this all the damned time. As I've slowly realised, the cost of provisioning technology hardware falls by an order of magnitude per decade. The rate is much slower for software, but there's far more capable, far more modular software rising up all the time. You can actually see this progression going back to the dawn of electronic computing, with IBM owning the market in the 1950s and 1960s, then a cascade of first minicomputers (DEC, Wang, Sun), then micros (PCs), then laptops, now handhelds, coming along at roughly 10-year intervals.

Software's taken a while to catch up.

Facebook had roughly 1/10 the hardware cost profile of Google (though growth of the Web may have increased that). Scaling out a startup now is largely a solved problem. Revenue model is harder -- but you need far less revenue.

The other problem Facebook (and any other tech player) faces is that their own codebase becomes liability. For every table-based desktop site (say, Hacker News), that existing site layout (and perhaps much the technology underpinning it) actively impedes movement to mobile or tablet devices. I've had long arguments with designers of sites who insist on pixel- and point-based font sizing, rather than em and rem, and then screw up with low-contrast sites to boot.

(HN's own fonts are barely readable for me on a 10" tablet, and no, mobile extensions don't help.)

Further, "Making Money" for Facebook has been exceptionally reliant on both easy-money Federal Reserve policies, and lending and banking regulations favouring Silicon Valley style investments. A tremendous amount of advertising is itself financial services, electronics, and other startups (I'm basing this off of Google's advertisers which I'm familiar with from other sources, but suspect FB's profile is similar). That ads money could well dry up damned quickly.

Tech companies have the problem that as the money dries up so does their tech workforce. Look at the salaries reported to have been offered to Yahoo's top tech talent (if you can't offer appreciating stock, you've got to bleed money). Lose programmer interest, and again there's a downward cascade of talent and capabilities, and some of the negative feedbacks start dominating.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by nazka on Monday July 11, 2016 @04:15AM (#12069589)
It's more than just Facebook the product. Facebook the company made a lot of good acquisitions like Instagram.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by eggie on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:24PM (#12066307)
> But I'm at a loss to draw the correct conclusion from this. Is it rational that Facebook is now worth 6x as much as Ford?

I worry that I see it as over-hyped because of my discomfort in the future it proposes. Its valuation represents the market's belief in what I feel is a very dark future.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by arcticfox on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:50PM (#12066415)
And unfortunately the valuation means there are a lot of powerful people invested in making that a reality.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by mwfunk on Sunday July 10, 2016 @04:55PM (#12067229)
One of the many weird things about the stock market is that it doesn't really reflect how investors feel about a given company, so much as it reflects how investors are predicting how other investors will feel about a company in the coming years.

So, a slightly more optimistic way of looking at it is that investors think that other investors think that there's a dark future ahead, but may not believe so themselves. It's quite possible that no one really believes in that particular dystopian future, but everyone thinks that everyone else does.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by 03pxkexce5 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @05:45PM (#12067411)
I'm a lot more optistic about a world where everyone is socializing on the internet than one where everyone is burning carbon.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by michaelt on Sunday July 10, 2016 @06:31PM (#12067580)
My level of optimism depends on whether I think FB can make enough profit to sustain their current valuation based on their current advertising alone, or whether they'll need to broaden their horizons in terms of monetising the data they hold.

It's fairly easy to imagine monetisation strategies that could be pretty negative in the long term.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by 03pxkexce5 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @06:39PM (#12067612)
If I try to imagine the worst things Facebook could do, I don't get scared, because they don't seem that lucrative.

Blackmail me based on private conversations?

Resell my photo uploads to shutterstock?

Charge the intelligence agencies $1k per user for a backdoor to my encrypted FB chat messages?

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by eggie on Monday July 11, 2016 @05:38AM (#12069908)
They could influence elections, shift social policy to help certain people, and generally engineer the social world in their own image. It will be very hard to tell if this is happening.

They could become the whole internet. In many places they already are. This is a very sad future for someone who sees the internet as a tool of human liberation and direct connection.

I don't care so much about them selling our information. It's worthless even to me. These other things are much more subtle and valuable.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by emp_zealoth on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:17PM (#12067741)
They can make users miserable by messing too much with them or trying to squeeze more money out of them
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by coldtea on Sunday July 10, 2016 @05:52PM (#12067429)
>where everyone is socializing on the internet

Or, as we used to called it in my day, not actually socializing.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by 03pxkexce5 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @06:20PM (#12067535)
So kids these days are exchanging enough words but not touching enough bodies?
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by coldtea on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:07PM (#12067705)
According to me, yes. And mostly not doing enough stuff together and eye to eye -- which makes those words easier and less meaningful when they are not accompanied by actual effort, money, being there, etc.

Digital is a nice way to keep touch or contact new people, but bad replacement for physical socializing. Of course it's also easier and needs far less commitment, courage and empathy, and you can't beat that for people...

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by heurist on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:18PM (#12066543)
Facebook uniquely knows the social network, communications, whereabouts and psychological makeup of ~1 billion individuals across the world. They've demonstrated the power to manipulate their users' emotions. Ford manufactures motor vehicles in a highly competitive industry. Comparing early Ford to current facebook might be a better comparison as they were both heralds of new disruptive technologies.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by jkot on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:42PM (#12066374)
Facebook had 50 million users at October 2007 [1], that is $300 per user.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/number-active-users-facebook-...

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by akhilcacharya on Sunday July 10, 2016 @11:52AM (#12065975)
*2007.

That video is fantastic.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by adventured on Sunday July 10, 2016 @09:23PM (#12068279)
It's more plausible that Europe is going to go through a much harsher next ten years than the last ten years have been (a time during which the EU and Eurozone both saw essentially zero net GDP growth). They've only added to their debt situation since the great recession, nothing has actually been fixed, and they will be unable to raise interest rates for the next decade at least - that combination will continue to suffocate all GDP growth, by locking up trillions in capital that will no longer be productive and will be stuck in a blackhole yielding a negative return for decades.

Italy for example is imploding on $300 billion in bad debts, which is likely to send their economy into a Spanish style depression. That's going to sink a lot of European banks. Deutsche Bank's lead economist is already calling for a $150 billion EU bank bailout. They're going to need something more like $500 billion as the financial picture gets worse in Europe in the next few years.

Finland as another example is in a nearly decade long soft-depression, and is likely to abandon the Eurozone as their situation will continue to drift and erode.

Countries like Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Norway, now have among the most indebted households on earth based on debt to income ratios. The mortgage debt accumulation going on there can't continue indefinitely.

Spain and Portugal have barely begun to pull out of the last recession, when a new one is inbound. Greece is still a hobbled mess.

Countries like France and Germany that are center to Europe's economy, have had zero growth for nearly a decade. Germany's ability to continue to bail out other parts of Europe, is now at an end.

It's far more likely Deutsche Bank will be quasi-nationalized, than not at this point. The next few years will be worse, rather than better.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by cm2187 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @11:31AM (#12065907)
I agree. Although in the case of banks, a panic can be self fulfilling. DB may be well capitalised and have sound assets, but if there is a market panic and no wholesale investor will roll their funding with them (as happened after Lehman went bust), and retail depositors start a run on the bank, the bank will go bust. Even if it is solvent.

The liquidity requirements introduced after Lehman should be sufficient for banks to sustain another Lehman scenario but you could imagine an even more severe stress.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by Malarkey73 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @11:48AM (#12065961)
Hell will freeze over before the German government lets Deutsche Bank go bust.

They let Greece go bust rather than the Landesbank.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by pgeorgi on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:17PM (#12066278)
The various Landesbanken (banks of the states), the Bundesbank (federal bank) and KfW (kinda the federal investment bank) will be kept afloat in some way (although there might be mergers, as there were in the past), since they're public entities.

However Deutsche Bank is a private company. It's still likely to be kept alive, but it's not as certain.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by jsemrau on Sunday July 10, 2016 @09:17PM (#12068251)
You are right that DB is private, nevertheless the bank is deeply intertwined with financing the Deutschland AG. Without them Daimler, BMW, Bosch, etc all would have to find new partners for financing their day to day operations.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by tim333 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @12:39PM (#12066153)
>They let Greece go bust rather than the Landesbank.

It more a case they may have to bail out Greece rather than letting it default and take out the Landesbank.

A lot of the problems could be prevented by the German controlled ECB easing monetary policy and aiming for say 2% inflation rather than the present 0%.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by Tomte on Sunday July 10, 2016 @12:59PM (#12066215)
As I like to point out whenever people claim that the ECB is controlled by Germany: Germany has a very small minority of the votes in the controlling gremium.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by Malarkey73 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:46PM (#12066966)
Influence in the Euro institutions is largely determined by the size of the economies and their contributions to the budget. Germany is first among equals.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by Tomte on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:55PM (#12067002)
As long as we're talking votes, not "soft power", Germany is a dwarf.

European institutions are largely determined by "every member gets something", not economic size.

In this example, the Governing Council of the ECB has 25 members, two of which are German.

It is "first among equals" in the sense that no country has more members and few have as many, but what you're insinuating is factually wrong.

When it comes to any European organization, just assume that each member country has one vote and you'll always be very close to reality.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by Malarkey73 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @06:02PM (#12067466)
I'm sorry - I don't mean to imply that Germany is all powerful. The power dynamics of different EU institutions are complex and sometime unwieldy. And often a single country can block something. However I respectfully disagree with your last sentence - assuming each country has equal power is not reality but fantasy.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by tim333 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:14PM (#12066271)
Fair enough - my bad.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by cm2187 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @12:04PM (#12066021)
Actually I think what would happen would neither be a bail out or DB going bust, but a bail-in (which I described in another post):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12065996

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by arbuge on Sunday July 10, 2016 @12:32PM (#12066129)
DB is actually one of the less well capitalized major banks in the world:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-12/deutsche-b...

As others have pointed out, the German government would probably be ready to bail them out if they ever ran into trouble, though that would likely be a painful process for existing common shareholders.

Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by pmorici on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:48PM (#12066672)
It's probable that they are both over valued. Deutsche Bank supposedly has insane amounts of derivative exposure and is highly leveraged. Then again if you assume that they will be bailed out at any cost you could be right.
Re:Brexit Is a Lehman Moment for European Banks by LoSboccacc on Sunday July 10, 2016 @05:01PM (#12067250)
Yeah, germany helping greece was mostly to save the over exposed DB, and I don't think it's over yet on that front. then there's the italian front, which is more of the same, and on top of it brexit has messed up euro value even further. It's going to recover, but that burned a lot of non indexed capital