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Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:03PM (#12027191)
Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin?

And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages?

I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new programming languages when you've got C?

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by ggreer on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:17PM (#12027244)
The reason we have lots of programming languages is because:

1. They're not that different. Once you've learned a few, picking up new ones is pretty easy.

2. They're much easier to learn than human languages.

To answer your first question: I probably wouldn't stop using english myself, but I don't think I'd teach it to my children.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:41PM (#12027324)
Have you read the article? The condition has to be stronger than simply not teaching it to your children. You have to absolutely and completely remove the worldview, cultural heritage, geographic knowledge etc that comes with it.

Thus to get my (and the article's) point, you need not just stop teaching it to children, you have to completely erase the underlying knowledge the language holds and start over in a new language. This is the point: you lose much more than what appears on first glance.

And concerning programming languages, I don't see how picking up brainfuck for example is easy, but someone still put the effort into creating it. Imagine a universe in which you'd have to solve every single programming problem in C. You could dream up all sorts of programming language concepts, but you could never use any other language than C. I bet you'd find that a bit boring and tedious...

Make no mistake, I'm not advocating for languages to keep their purity. I think it's a good thing they mix and borrow concepts and words. But I do find the idea of having one world language an utter absurdity.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Chris2048 on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:52PM (#12027353)
> Have you read the article?

'Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."'

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Sunday July 03, 2016 @04:17PM (#12027441)
Noted. However I think the tone I used is different than what is given as an example. I was really asking the question, since depending on the answer, our disagreement would be on a different level.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Chris2048 on Monday July 04, 2016 @08:19AM (#12030259)
True, but it's a burden on mods (read: dang) to have to make that distinction, are far easier, in this case, to self moderate. No problems in any case :-)
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by chongli on Sunday July 03, 2016 @07:12PM (#12028059)
They're not that different. Once you've learned a few, picking up new ones is pretty easy.

Only if you stay in the same family. Going from C to C++, Java, or C# is pretty easy. Try going from C to Haskell or Clojure or Erlang.

You can play the same game with natural languages. It's easy to go between French, Italian, and Spanish. Try going from Icelandic to Mandarin.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by kazinator on Sunday July 03, 2016 @06:19PM (#12027893)
3. You can teach millions of computers to obey a new language just by copying its implementation onto them. You can make something that reaches countless users even if you're the only person working in your language.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Monday July 04, 2016 @12:26AM (#12028880)
The process you describe is effectively translation. This works with natural languages as well.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by kazinator on Monday July 04, 2016 @01:15AM (#12028984)
The process I describe of installing a translation method in seconds, bringing about instant understanding, doesn't work with natural languages.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Monday July 04, 2016 @12:21PM (#12031579)
Just because it takes more time does not mean the process is fundamentally different.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by kazinator on Monday July 04, 2016 @02:29PM (#12032205)
Right, it's fundamentally different for other reasons. For one thing, no two "installations" of a natural language are identical. The natural language learning process isn't like loading a program into a machine, but a "reverse engineering": forming a refined set of hypotheses about what the rules are, from examples. Thus after years of learning, still no two competent, even native speakers will agree about all the fine points of what they learned.

By contrast, we can easily install the same version of a programming language interpreter/compiler and run-time onto countless machines and get the same behavior. The machines do not have to guess what the language is by forming hypotheses and testing them against more competent "speakers", to obtain either approval or correction. They just receive a ready-made software image.

In essence, a million installations of the same programming language are just manifestations of one image, whereas a million speakers of a language are individuals (not just as people, but as speakers of that language).

If people could receive a language as an image dumped into the brain, it would be a game-changer. It would still be a game changer even if it took five years to complete, rather than an hour. It would make fledgling languages more viable.

Because languages are hard to learn and even harder to learn very well, people tend not to be so interested in fledgling languages that can't be used outside of a small locale with a small number of speakers. Not as a second language, that's for sure.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Monday July 04, 2016 @06:55PM (#12033446)
You're right of course, and this is precisely why preserving languages is important. They are loaded with knowledge, and passing around this knowledge is time consuming, hard, or sometimes unfeasible if not enough speakers still live :)
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by kazinator on Tuesday July 05, 2016 @02:22PM (#12038419)
Languages contain pseudo-knowledge consisting of a set of conventions that people made up. They have no external value.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that something which pops into my head today represents a burden for future generations to preserve, who will have perfectly good heads of their own into which similar stuff can pop just as well.

Linguists require specimens of languages to study so that we can understand language. But we have more than enough non-dying languages to keep linguists busy.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by DonaldFisk on Sunday July 03, 2016 @05:57PM (#12027817)
Never mind differences: are there any similarities between, for example, C and Prolog?
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Kenji on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:16PM (#12027243)
I am willing to give up my language in favour of a world language - in fact, I have already done that. I think in English. I write all my poetry, stories and dreams in English, I only communicate in that language unless it's with family or coworkers. I pretty much gave up on my native language. I feel like English is superior in many ways because it has words that my language does not, which forces me to describe awkwardly what I mean instead of using a single word. In German, happiness and luck are merged into one single word (da fuq?). German has no succinct word for contrarian (noun). Or another point for English:

Our language has wisely sensed the two sides of being alone. It has created the word loneliness to express the pain of being alone. And it has created the word solitude to express the glory of being alone. - Paul Tillich

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by jvanloov on Sunday July 03, 2016 @04:53PM (#12027571)
English has these words that your language does not, because it borrowed heavily from several other languages in the past. Having only one language would kill off that source for diversity.

Dutch also has one word for happiness and luck ("geluk"), although in Flanders you can use "chance" to express "luck" specifically (borrowed from French).

In some ways, English allows for more specificity compared to German, but the reverse is also true.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by tonyjstark on Monday July 04, 2016 @06:00AM (#12029739)
I have to disagree here. Maybe 'Glück' has more than one meaning (happiness and luck) but you also have particular words for happiness like 'Fröhlichkeit'. Of course in a day to day context you would not use all those different words but still I think German can be used as a language to describe things very precise.

As a native speaker of German I feel often more comfortable to advertise products in English but that is probably because I'm so used to English advertisements and I'm not so exposed to that particular vocabulary in German (or maybe German is too precise to really shine in advertisements). I don't think I could translate an Apple keynote into German and still sounding so 'magical'.

Maybe there are some words you can't translate literally or they don't sound as nice (contrarian: Querdenker, Nonkonformist) still you would miss other awesome things like the German way to combine nouns to infinite length.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by smsm42 on Sunday July 03, 2016 @05:31PM (#12027705)
German, however, has schadenfreude, gestalt, eigenvalue, angst, weltschmerz and poltergeist ;)
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by wolfgke on Sunday July 03, 2016 @06:47PM (#12027985)
The most important feature of German that I strongly miss in English (and probably other languages, too) is the easiness that one can make new words (in particular nouns) by juxtaposition (and indeed, importantly, you can often rely on the fact that more complicated words are constructed this way). I really wish a lot more English words were built by juxtaposition from more simple concepts instead of being own words that one has to learn without (easily) being able to understand the "atoms" that the word is built of.

Some of smsm42's example do have this property:

"Eigenwert" (eigenvalue): eigen (of (it)self), Wert (value)

"Weltschmerz": Welt (world), Schmerz (pain)

"Poltergeist": poltern (to rumble), Geist (ghost)

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by DonaldFisk on Sunday July 03, 2016 @06:55PM (#12028004)
Mandarin Chinese does much the same as German.

English prefers to borrow words from other languages. Curiously, it has borrowed hardly any words from Mandarin Chinese.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by wolfgke on Sunday July 03, 2016 @07:32PM (#12028115)
> English prefers to borrow words from other languages. Curiously, it has borrowed hardly any words from Mandarin Chinese.

Besides that there had been much less contact between English speaking countries and China than to, say, German, French or Spanish speaking countries (at least until the Chinese economy began to boom) there is another reason that I can imagine. Since the Chinese dialects/languages are tonal languages their sound is much more foreign to the ear of people who didn't grew up with a tonal languages. Indeed people who learnt to speak one of the Chinese dialects told me one of the first exercises is learning to even consciously perceive the different tones.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by DonaldFisk on Sunday July 03, 2016 @09:36PM (#12028500)
Yes, probably down to historical lack of contact. I don't think that tones are part of the reason. There has been somewhat more borrowing from Cantonese into English, e.g. ketchup, dimsum, kumquat, and cheongsam, and substantial borrowing from Chinese into Japanese and Korean. The tones are simply dropped.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Symbiote on Sunday July 03, 2016 @05:43PM (#12027758)
English had all of these, exactly.

Every child knows poltergeist, from Harry Potter. Every teenager knows angst.

The others are less universal, but I'd expect a university graduate to know them.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by smsm42 on Sunday July 03, 2016 @08:16PM (#12028253)
That's kind of the point - English imported them from German (or, rather, just uses German words). English does that all the time. Same with French - rendezvous, cachet (don't confuse with cache :), passé, etc. So French speakers shouldn't feel bad for taking words from English - that happens all the time, just this time English is more popular so other languages take from it. Before that it was German and French, and in 100 years maybe it will be Mandarin, who knows.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by eropple on Sunday July 03, 2016 @07:00PM (#12028020)
Where exactly do you think those words come from?
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by sbmassey on Sunday July 03, 2016 @05:33PM (#12027713)
Having more specific or less specific words is not necessarily a weakness or strength of a language - sometimes being able to express both happiness and luck in a single word might be useful, and I imagine it is easy to specify either one or the other concept with a quick paraphrase if necessary.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:29PM (#12027280)
Erm, Tillich could have chosen a better example: in French you also have isolement and solitude.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Kenji on Sunday July 03, 2016 @04:20PM (#12027457)
I think Tillich wanted to make a point about solitude and loneliness, not the superiority of English. I find his point interesting in both contexts.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by kazinator on Sunday July 03, 2016 @06:16PM (#12027885)
> Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin?

If only 321 people are left in the world speaking English, and billions speak Mandarin, absolutely!

It means that the world has basically said "to hell with English", and you're best off if you do too.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Chris2048 on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:50PM (#12027346)
> Why invent new programming languages when you've got C?

The practicalities of PLs aren't at all like spoken natural languages. For one thing, all computers can run any PL with little effort.

Secondly:

> Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin?

What the OP thinks is irrelevant, it's whether this would be desirable or not. It would also not be a "do this now" thing and more of "in years to come, humanity will do this".

I think mankind will one day set foot on mars, and this effort will be a good thing - this does not mean I should be willing to be put on a rocket today.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by DonaldFisk on Sunday July 03, 2016 @06:48PM (#12027987)
> The practicalities of PLs aren't at all like spoken natural languages. For one thing, all computers can run any PL with little effort.

But not with equal effort. Machines have been developed to run specific languages (Burroughs mainframes - Algol 60; Lisp Machines - Lisp), and languages have been developed to run on specific machines (C - PDP-11).

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by mablap on Sunday July 03, 2016 @04:22PM (#12027464)

    For one thing, all computers can run any PL with little effort.
A counter example to this is that any children can be taught any language. The fact that an adult can't learn new languages as easily speaks more to the architecture of the computer (brain) than to its capacity to run various languages.
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by Chris2048 on Monday July 04, 2016 @08:24AM (#12030273)
I suppose - although a language would probably die out if children couldn't learn it - or the unlearnable parts in any case.

The clause "with little effort" is not counteracted though - for a computer this represents a short download-and-install of a compiler/interpreter.

Even writing a compiler may take the same amount of time it takes to learn a language from scratch.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by derriz on Sunday July 03, 2016 @05:54PM (#12027803)
Indeed. And why have multiple OSes - imagine the utilitarian value of having every computer in the world run Windows.

The claim that different computer languages are easier to learn than different human languages betrays an incredible lack of perspective - 99% of humankind cannot manage even a single programming language while the majority worldwide are at least bilingual.

Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by ludamad on Sunday July 03, 2016 @03:15PM (#12027238)
Re: "And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages?" We just borrow the relevant words :)
Re:Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014) by sbmassey on Sunday July 03, 2016 @05:38PM (#12027742)
Sometimes it is not just individual words, but grammatical structures which make things more succint. Latin has lots of such like your gerundives or your supines where you can express with a simple word ending what would take a bunch of words in English