News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Web We Want by cdnsteve on Friday June 10, 2016 @11:24AM (#11877014)
The web I want is free of junk loaders, javascript tracking ad garbage making my page requests crazy slow, unpleasant and hard to use.

FB Pages now have a giant login thing that takes over the entire page if you aren't logged in. If you close it, it comes back for every other page you visit.

The amount of stuff that uBlock origin blocks now is amazing. I couldn't even use WSJ until I turned on ad blocking.

I'm starting to think text based browsing is the future. Using chat like interface along with voice commands, mainly work directly with APIs and just never use a browser again. HTML and JavaScript are being taken over by crap on sites.

The web is starting to feel like a garbage dump. API's are the only logical path forward I can see.

Re:The Web We Want by kodablah on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:36PM (#11877614)
I think I have a better solution. How about keeping HTML/JS and lose the bidirectional protocols used to track you.

As a side project I am starting to work on a non-HTTP browser (and non-websocket, non-webrtc, etc). The first "protocol" will be IPFS. Download all of the HTML/JS/images and store all the cookies/localStorage you want, you can't send the information back to any server. Heck, you can't even know you have a page view. Now to make it more powerful, I will offer a JS API to pages that let's them use the mutation features of IPFS, but it is strictly opt-in and the permissions are very narrow and clear to the user (think specific oauth scopes).

Re:The Web We Want by glassx on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:13PM (#11877894)
> I think I have a better solution. How about keeping HTML/JS and lose the bidirectional protocols used to track you.

Is it that common for trackers to have Websocket/WebRTC as a requirement? Pretty much any trackers I see in the wild is using regular Ajax calls. And if you're a tracking service, it's not exactly hard to fallback to Ajax if Websockets aren't available...

EDIT: My mistake, I misread the first mention of HTTP as HTML.

Re:The Web We Want by kodablah on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:14PM (#11877909)
I also consider HTTP a bidirectional protocol used to track you.
Re:The Web We Want by nitrogen on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:36PM (#11878779)
You can be tracked without bidirectional calls, without JS, even without images or cookies. See the Panopticlick.
Re:The Web We Want by kodablah on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:38PM (#11879354)
> You can be tracked without bidirectional calls

No, you can be fingerprinted and what not, but being tracked requires you send the data somewhere.

Re:The Web We Want by nitrogen on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:46PM (#11879427)
You can be tracked from page to page using your fingerprint, optionally with server-side checking of referrers and URL parameters.
Re:The Web We Want by kodablah on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:03PM (#11879569)
> You can be tracked from page to page using your fingerprint

That's not really tracking per se any more than any local stateful data is.

> optionally with server-side checking of referrers and URL parameters

Again, no, this requires sending data to the server (in the URL or as HTTP headers in this case) which is exactly what I am saying would NOT happen in my project.

Re:The Web We Want by nitrogen on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:52PM (#11880379)
Saying that fingerprinting is not tracking "per se" is like saying that a series of pictures taken at evenly spaced sub-second intervals is not a movie "per se".

How do you request data from a server without making any contact with the server? The initial page request is sending data to the server. That is unavoidable.

A web browser sends (or doesn't send) lots of HTTP headers all the time. The particular headers sent (User-Agent, Referer[sic], Accept, etc.) or not sent are additional data that can be used to fingerprint, and thus track you (not to mention your request IP address).

Re:The Web We Want by kodablah on Friday June 10, 2016 @06:47PM (#11880753)
> How do you request data from a server without making any contact with the server?

I specifically mentioned IPFS

> The initial page request is sending data to the server. That is unavoidable.

Wrong. I specifically mentioned IPFS and would introduce storj, sia, maidsafe, etc as deemed worthy.

> A web browser sends (or doesn't send) lots of HTTP headers all the time.

Not the one I'm talking about. HTTP isn't even in the picture. Please please read my post that mentions non-HTTP.

Re:The Web We Want by wfn on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:42PM (#11880302)
I was thinking, IPFS + Gopher or a Gopher-like system. But lose the damn JS, use Lua or something if so desired, and lose the JS web compatibility requirement. Allow public key encryption and signing on a per-document basis.
Re:The Web We Want by anonbanker on Saturday June 11, 2016 @05:27PM (#11885414)
got a mailing list or something we can subscribe to in order to stay updated on your project? it's extremely important.
Re:The Web We Want by kodablah on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:02AM (#11891815)
I did some early work[0] but the project hasn't started in earnest (a big issue w/ electron and web views in separate partitions was just fixed). I made a POC for maidsafe also [1]

0 - https://github.com/cretz/shrewd 1 - https://github.com/cretz/safe-poc-browser

Re:The Web We Want by porFavor on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:10PM (#11877409)
Have a walk down Times Square. It's gross. Sure, if you're a tourist, it's one of the first things you'll do upon arriving in NYC. If, on the other hand, you live in NYC, you'll avoid Times Square at all costs.

Times Square is what you get when you try to clean something up and it becomes commercialized. A lot of it has to do with the incentives put in place to clean it up. Tax brakes are generally provided for companies to utilize the space, and "clean it up". Even Lincoln Center is an example of this sort. The money provided to develop Lincoln Center was supposed to be utilized to improve that area, but instead it pushed out all the residents. It did not improve their lives. They can't afford events at Lincoln Center. They were relocated.

In both cases, Times Square and Lincoln Center, the communities that were utilizing the space prior to redevelopment / improvement were simply displaced. The redevelopment did not benefit these constituents. These constituents did not have the influence needed to either send help their way or steer changes that would affect them.

So really, the incentives are directed by the political mechanism, which is directed by the interest groups with the requisite influence.

Companies and affluent individuals.

This should look very familiar.

Many of the most visible parts of the Internet today (I guess the press recently decided that the "Internet" should no longer be capitalized, but they are wrong) might fairly be viewed as our shared digital Times Square. It looks like a public space, but in actuality it is a heavily regulated private space.

If, on the other hand, you are a New Yorker, you don't go there. You go to the many other amazing pockets of humanity and creativity that the city has to offer. And they're constantly changing. One week a space smells like urine and you wouldn't go down their after dark even if it was 4:30 am and had the only street meat in sight; the next week your buddy gives you the heads up that it's now an awesome bar, just make sure and use the door in the connected building because there are no signs or working doors at the front yet. And then, in a year, that bar turns into a Gristedes.

My point, long winded though it might be, is that sure parts of the Internet are being co-opted and grossly commercialized, but a true local explores beyond these parts and makes a home amongst these parts. Going native means knowing where the alleyways and speakeasies are. It means having your ear to the ground and finding out about the newest restaurants by word of mouth instead of paid advertisements. In a word, taste. Acquiring and exercising good taste in the places your frequent, you patronize, you invest in, you wander in, will both benefit you and the community you are a part of.

One last point. One advantage that the Internet has over our share physical spaces is that distance is, practically speaking, a non-issue. In our shared physical space it takes a good while to walk from Times Square to Lincoln Center. But, to go from the web presence of Times Square to Lincoln Center takes no time at all. Heck, you can have both tabs up on your screen at the same time. So, sure, parts of the Internet can be co-opted and ruined. But there is space enough for us to recreate. And if others want to come along, we'll always be a click away.

Re:The Web We Want by mzw_mzw on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:28PM (#11879259)
"In both cases, Times Square and Lincoln Center, the communities that were utilizing the space prior to redevelopment / improvement were simply displaced."

In the case of Times Square, the "communities" that were "utilizing" the space before were three-card-monte scammers, porn theaters, and drug dealers. Not all change is bad.

Re:The Web We Want by porFavor on Saturday June 11, 2016 @03:26PM (#11884913)
not all porn actors or drug dealers are bad people. you can change a place without forcing out the people.
Re:The Web We Want by Kalium on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:24PM (#11877532)
If you define community by geography, then I have no desire to be a part of the home or "community" you lionize. I suspect I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

I'm sick of being told that I can only think and live in some antiquated way because some people in the 1960s and 1970s thought it was a good idea.

Re:The Web We Want by coldtea on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:41PM (#11877667)
Actually it's the above reasoning that it's not just antiquated, but prehistoric -- humans as nomadic animals with no ties to any specific location. Most of civilization happened after we abandoned that.

Physical space -- or "geography" and the community defined by it, is not some "antiquated idea".

And just because one can have friends (or "friends") all over the world through the internet and modern communications, doesn't mean that where one lives is not important, and they should not care of it and try to improve it -- and yes, connect with nearby people.

If you slip and break your ankle on the pavement, or your house catches fire, it's those "antiquated physical neighbors" that will come to the rescue. Or not -- if they too consider the whole "community by geography" notion antiquated, they wont.

"Community by geography" is just another term for the place we live and the people in it. One might not care for most of them, by its sad to not care of any of them, and also sad not to care for the place. It's also a recipe for a decayed urban civilization, fewer local opportunities, and a derelict neighborhood.

Re:The Web We Want by porFavor on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:47PM (#11877709)
Word.

Ever as I gain more experience with 1s and 0s, I find a greater appreciate for and a greater draw to my front porch.

Without going into neuroscience, physics, chaos theory, and what not, by acknowledging and embracing that I am human and not some abstract distributed, computing network, and by accepting the consequences of that, my life grows richer.

Re:The Web We Want by Kalium on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:14PM (#11878580)
You are free to think in whatever prehistoric mode you wish. That's fine. I simply desire to not be coerced into thinking like you. I should be free to choose to think like you or not as I see fit.

In this context, what I really mean is that a space should not be controlled entirely by the people who just happen to be there at the moment. Every space has a past. Every space has a future. The past and the future are always different from the present. That's as it should be. People who think in terms of "I control this space now, so all things should be about me" are thinking in a prehistoric mode I find distasteful.

Re:The Web We Want by TeMPOraL on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:18PM (#11880094)
I don't like the approach you're proposing. The ability of people to share the space around them seems like the most basic of the "rights" you could have. "[A] space should not be controlled entirely by the people who just happen to be there at the moment" feels to close to encouraging uninvited and unwanted guests to take over communities and reshape them.

Like, imagine if suddenly the fishing community decided to come en masse to HN and start talking and upvoting only fishing-related stories, while downvoting / flagging everything else. I think the present HN community should have the (moral) right to tell them to go and find their own spot, instead of taking over someone else's.

Re:The Web We Want by Kalium on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:44PM (#11880323)
I'm saying that new blood and new thoughts and new ideas should always be encouraged in any community, space, or location. Particularly when resources like physical space are very much finite. I think that any desire to freeze a community, space, or location in amber is unhealthy. Those with an interest in the future of a community, space, or location will not be identical to those who happen to be there at the moment or those who were there yesterday.

For an example, look at what that desire has done to the housing market of San Francisco.

Re:The Web We Want by porFavor on Saturday June 11, 2016 @03:27PM (#11884918)
your line of reasoning is becoming very tangled.
Re:The Web We Want by api on Friday June 10, 2016 @11:30AM (#11877055)
It's a tragedy of the commons combined with the lack of any economic model other than tracking and ads.
Re:The Web We Want by Frondo on Friday June 10, 2016 @11:43AM (#11877171)
You know, I think there's another part of this--income inequality (stop groaning, it's relevant!) that means that everyone has to try and shill and monetize their stuff as much as possible.

I dream of a world in which the typical worker's wages hadn't been suppressed and decoupled from productivity for the last four decades, and people had the disposable income to work less and write and make art more, and give it away instead of tryin' to get us all to punch the monkey and win. I dream of a world in which we can ALL punch the monkey and win! Well, ok, maybe not, but still...

Re:The Web We Want by zanny on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:05PM (#11877359)
If incomes had not stagnated / declined in real earnings against cost of living patronage would be a much, much more viable field to replace all IP and advertising.

Though in general, I think there is an obvious trend in markets - if the people are rich, you reinvest money into new products or into improving your existing products so you can sell more stuff. When the people are poor, you use psychologically targeted advertising to make people buy things they cannot afford and sit on vast cash reserves because fundamental to capitalism is that markets respond to the needs of capital, but when you have incredible wealth inequality the only demand of capital is making more capital, and sitting on money becomes more profitable to shareholders than taking risks trying to get the drippings out of an already empty pot of middle class wealth.

Simply put, my favorite metric of whether an economy is fair is how large an advertising budget the economy as a whole has. The larger it is, the less fair the market is, and the more unequal the wealth distribution is, and every society should aspire to be one where nobody needs to advertise because all your reinvestment can go into making more, better stuff rather than trying to manipulate people in buying your stuff over someone elses stuff. The more valuable advertising is the poorer your country is.

Re:The Web We Want by komali2 on Friday June 10, 2016 @11:58AM (#11877302)
I'm about to take us from off the rails to into the forest, but since we're on the subject - poor people are poor, yes, but I think the biggest problem is lack of financial education. I know people that are making enough money to live comfortably, but are crippled by debt caused by poor decisions when they are younger, or poor decisions now.

I say better financial education, and then the next step.

Re:The Web We Want by Frondo on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:26PM (#11877549)
You know, better financial education would be great.

I don't think it's enough, though, when you're trying to stretch a $230 paycheck to $300 in expenses.

I don't think it's enough, either, when you look at how poor people get dinged with so many more fees than the less-poor whenever they go out to do anything in the world.

And I don't think most of the "save what you can" advice is particularly meaningful when you're telling people to put aside $10 a month. One big family gathering could wipe out a year's savings on food costs alone!

I think the first solution has to be getting people--especially the poorest--paid more for the incredibly taxing work poor people tend to do, like cleaning, cooking, all those jobs where you're on your feet 8, 10, 12 hours a day and your body's worn out by the time you're 40.

Re:The Web We Want by josho on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:14PM (#11877912)
I agree, but feel the root cause is actually easy access to credit. Credit has been driving the economy for the last few decades. If we didn't have easy access to credit that may have forced wages to stay tied to productivity increases.

Oh and the decline of unions meant that workers lost their ability to successfully lobby their government, business meanwhile increased their lobby efforts.

So, I see the root causes as a rigged game against workers. (Rigged as the odds slightly against our favour, so we get just enough wins and benefits as to not realize that we are loosing overall).

Re:The Web We Want by bcheung on Friday June 10, 2016 @08:58PM (#11881381)
Speaking of finance and education... One things that makes no sense to me.

Take 2 different scenarios:

1) Youth gets paid $4/hr (well below the minimum wage) to work in their chosen field as an apprenticeship. Graduates with a certification in their field with a little bit of money saved up, no debt, and real work experience.

2) Youth gets into massive student loan debt, gets a degree but has no real job experience or employment prospects. Has to work the next decade to pay off their student loans.

The one that makes the most sense and that would result in people being better off is illegal.

Re:The Web We Want by jshelly on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:14PM (#11877441)
Why personal finance isn't taught in school is beyond me
Re:The Web We Want by vkou on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:38PM (#11877635)
Because the best personal finance advice it could give for the majority of people would be 'don't get into debt, don't buy shit you don't need, and support unions'.

Two of the three would be the death knell for our economy, whereas the third is politically unpalatable.

Re:The Web We Want by vitd on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:27PM (#11877559)
I get the feeling that naming a course "home economics" and including subjects like how to cook and clean and run a household is "too lame" for students these days. A better name might be something along the lines of "how to not end up in a van down by the river." [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nhgfjrKi0o

Re:The Web We Want by reitanqild on Saturday June 11, 2016 @04:45PM (#11885239)
We did have that kind of a subject, 4-7 grade I think. Learned basic cooking and baking, doing the dishes, cleaning the floors basic nutrition theory (macros, vitamins, trace minerals, fibres and I even think we touched into calorie counting before finishing off.)
Re:The Web We Want by vlunkr on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:33PM (#11877597)
I had an "economics" class in school that was mostly a personal finance class. It boiled down to "credit cards will destroy you", which isn't a bad lesson.
Re:The Web We Want by kilroy123 on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:41PM (#11877664)
In some schools it is. One of my favorite classes in high school was class where, they taught us everything from balancing a checkbook to dating.
Re:The Web We Want by wldcordeiro on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:20PM (#11877498)
In my experience, it is taught in school, only as an afterthought and a single semester-long high school course with usually one of their least competent teacher, much like the computer literacy courses.
Re:The Web We Want by hueving on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:25PM (#11877538)
It wasn't even taught in my school unless you didn't sign up for any other elective classes (e.g. shop, computer classes, etc). So on top of it being only taught once, it wasn't even taught to the majority of people that signed up for something else.
Re:The Web We Want by wldcordeiro on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:22PM (#11878655)
That's a great way to make sure that everyone mentally checks out of class and doesn't learn anything (even if it wasn't much.)

My high school had a financial literacy requirement, but it was a half year class taught by one of the worst teachers I've had (very nice lady but like the computer teacher they were just riding out to retirement and relegated to these classes that were undersupplied and they weren't knowledgeable in), the content was out of date, and sparse. They cover things like writing checks, bank account creation, but I remember nothing covering how loans work or anything of that nature because the math required would make the class too tough for general education. The class was really something the school just paid lip service to as the state required it. It's a damn shame school's don't have better experiences because people enter the world totally unequipped for the financial predators that loom.

Re:The Web We Want by mjevans on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:35PM (#11879798)
I think you've raised an excellent point here.

Loans (interest, and also contracts in general) are not required to be presented at a level that /most/ of the population can understand. There is a giant, thick, legal language contract that even if you are a lawyer you probably don't really understand (it hasn't been adjudicated, so you don't know what a judge feels it says).

Disclosure: I do use credit cards, but only as a convenient and insurance providing mechanism for accessing my bank account and recouping some of the fees built in to prices by the predatory banking industry.

Re:The Web We Want by gjm11 on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:10PM (#11877407)
Does better financial education actually help? I mean, I know it sounds like it should, but does it? I ask because I have a super-hazy memory of seeing some report that it turns out not to make much difference to later wealth, happiness, etc.
Re:The Web We Want by stephengillie on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:18PM (#11877479)
Compound interest isn't much help to those spending their whole paycheck meeting their basic needs. Knowing how to properly invest doesn't help those who can't generate enough income to effectively invest, and didn't receive any help from family or angels.

https://xkcd.com/947/

Re:The Web We Want by imtringued on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:38PM (#11878218)
That raises an interesting question. If you were poor, would you want to sacrifice your happyness a bit to ensure that your children will be better off than you? Sure this is quite a slow solution but it would actually work if done consistently.
Re:The Web We Want by digi_owl on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:07PM (#11879083)
Happens all the time. I keep running into stories from people that grew up in a poor household, or is a parent in the same situation. And always the parent will sacrifice a meal or similar to make sure that the kids get to eat.

In nature, getting between a mother and her baby is perhaps one of the most dangerous situations you can be in. very few predators, unless they are out of options, consider humans a viable meal. But even ruminants will potentially attack you to defend their young.

Trying to treat humans as cold calculators of utility is perhaps the worst idea economists have clung to over the years.

Re:The Web We Want by gjm11 on Sunday June 12, 2016 @07:03PM (#11890754)
This got downvoted and I'm curious why. (Perhaps because talking about my "super-hazy memory" sounds lazy? I dunno -- if I'd omitted the last part, would my comment have been better received? It doesn't seem like that would actually have been an improvement.)

If you downvoted the parent of this comment and would like to help me do better in future, I'm all ears...

Re:The Web We Want by SpaceCadetJones on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:13PM (#11877432)
Income inequality is just the symptom, capitalism is at the heart of the problem. This is what happens when you get a saturated labor market and employers have all of the bargaining power as the vast majority of people are unable to obtain the means to sustain themselves without selling their labor. The way I see it is we can only solve this problem possibly through a livable UBI, or preferably doing a major overhaul of how property rights work. Rather than having individuals own productive property where they employ others and keep everything the employees make, the property should be collectively owned and managed by those working it.

If anyone is interested, I recommend reading up on socialist theory. If you like markets mutualism, market socialism, or collectivism may be interesting to you. If you think planning might be a better route for the 21st century check out syndicalism or communism. There's a number of other philosophies I'm not acquainted with. Also, inb4 "communism/socialism is big government and authoritarianism", I'm tired of explaining the failings of tankies.

Re:The Web We Want by hueving on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:23PM (#11877522)
>Also, inb4 "communism/socialism is big government and authoritarianism", I'm tired of explaining the failings of tankies.

There hasn't been any evidence yet that central planning is effective in the long run. What do you think will work this time around?

Re:The Web We Want by RodericDay on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:32PM (#11877586)
Actually, the questions discussed in Ronald Coase's "Theory of the Firm" are alive and well

Central planning and command economies work really well inside corporations, such as Apple or Google. They don't make internal decisions by hosting mini-markets and pitting their workers against each other, they have departments who study demographics and departments that study research and logistics and so on.

Tankies claiming the fall of communism is just around the corner are in the same bucket of "bad" as free market libertarians who adore corporations.

Re:The Web We Want by hueving on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:58PM (#11877779)
>Central planning and command economies work really well inside corporations, such as Apple or Google.

That's because they can fire anyone that works for the company who doesn't agree with the goals. Do you propose to jail or disappear people that disagree and work against the direction defined by the central plan?

Re:The Web We Want by SpaceCadetJones on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:00PM (#11878452)
I mean that's only if you have some over arching entity that does all of the planning that commands from the top down. Some people argue for planning at a regional level and cooperating on a larger scale as needed, or organizing work into industry wide unions where leadership is democratically elected, immediately revocable, and the unions go around to communities to gather input for what is needed. If people were being difficult they would likely be kicked out, like a company today. I would hope people still provide for them

Again though, I'm not here to talk about the failings of autocratic state planning advocated by tankies.

Re:The Web We Want by hx87 on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:34PM (#11878165)
The government equivalent would be loss of citizenship or residency rights (exile), not jail or death.
Re:The Web We Want by xixi77 on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:58PM (#11880424)
Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't -- corporations fail all the time. The crucial difference is that when a corporation gets it wrong, it fails and is replaced by another that does not get it quite as wrong.
Re:The Web We Want by digi_owl on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:18PM (#11879174)
Iirc, even old man Marx back in the day considered central planning a stop gap measure for the transition, not a end goal.

That said, while most people seem to barely know about his writings in Capital Volume 1, Volume 2 and 3, published by Engels after Marx death, went on to point out that while there was a struggle between the factory owning capitalists and their workers. There was also a struggle going on between production capitalists and finance capitalists. And that the ultimate culprit of capitalism was likely to be finance.

IIRC, Marx even noted that in the long run it would likely be better for production capital to ally themselves with the workers against finance. But that production capital was more likely to squeeze the workers as they themselves got squeezed by finance (with landlords and other rent seekers lumped into finance).

Re:The Web We Want by SpaceCadetJones on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:34PM (#11877604)
Note: I'm not an advocate of central planning. However, I do believe that technology could make it viable. Our purchases in markets are used as inputs to companies so they can plan and allocate resources. I don't see any reason this sort of interaction couldn't be emulated by people giving input as to what they desire. We also have to admit that the USSR and China saw possibly unprecidented growth with centralized economic planning, although I wouldn't really argue that's necessarily a good thing and came at great costs. Personally I believe in more of a transitional approach by converting all corporations to cooperatives and allowing communities to democratically manage property, and seeing where that leads us.
Re:The Web We Want by marcosdumay on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:51PM (#11880373)
The problem is how could a central planner ensure technological progress and manage people in a bureaucracy composed of the entire country population.

Managing static resources is easy.

Now, cooperatives are interesting. They mostly don't work, but when they work, they are great.

Re:The Web We Want by imtringued on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:27PM (#11878699)
Central planning doesn't work because to achieve a perfect result the people in charge of the planning have to be perfect too. This clearly doesn't work in practice. Think of it this way. Communism has a better best case scenario than capitalism but this is rarely achieved. On the other hand capitalism has a better average case scenario and gives us consistent results.
Re:The Web We Want by mindslight on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:43PM (#11877687)
> capitalism is at the heart of the problem

What we call "capitalism" is a perverted incarnation with low interest rates and extremely high monetary inflation. This eliminates the ability to save for the lower class, and pushes in the middle class into wall street's fake "investments" where they can be scavenged by management fees, insider gaming, and bubbles caused by the surplus of dumb money.

Despite what the inflation acolytes preach, prices should be downward trending because price is the primary metric that an economy optimizes for! Gains in productivity should be directly reflected in the price of goods (eg computer technology, which has been advancing strong enough to resist the forced inflation). Instead, these gains are inflated out of sight and the corresponding new money is distributed to the gatekeepers of monetary creation.

In a functioning economy, workers should be able to gradually save some surplus, decreasing their reliance on weekly income, and giving them more bargaining power. This should cause wages to rise, creating a feedback cycle where workers demand to work ever less (as their marginal utility per extra dollar drops).

Instead, extremely low interest rates create a zero-sum treadmill for any modern necessity that can be financialized (eg housing, healthcare, cars, education), leaving us to compete against one another for minute changes in standing while the banksters collect the surplus as rent.

Then again, perhaps my argument is just a no true Scotsman similar to the ones defending communism, and any fiat capitalistic system will eventually succumb to itself and centralize in this manner (deprecate wealth in favor of income).

What I do definitely know is we're not going to get there by demanding top-down change, because the top retains power for itself regardless of what paradigm it promises. We must secure our freedom through technological means and build a better system from the ground up.

Re:The Web We Want by SpaceCadetJones on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:14PM (#11877905)
Definitely have to agree with you. I do believe it possible to have a functional capitalist society, however it will always devolve into something like the present day as groups natural accumulate large amounts of capital and use it to tip the scales in their favor, continuing the trend and making it so damn hard to account for market externalities or ensure the working class has bargaining power. This also is separate from what I believe to be one of capitalisms greatest ills: worker alienation and the capitalist class expropriating what the employees produce. It creates a huge conflict in society. Collective work requires collective expropriation, otherwise people will feel cheated.

The point about organizing from the bottom up is spot on. I believe many of socialism failings were because of attempts to organize top down and not allowing people to manage themselves. This is why I'm particular to anarchism, as the focus is on creating freely associated communities that come together so power comes from the bottom up and there are no concrete hierarchies. Many also have abandoned the idea of some great revolution to topple the system and instead opt for building structures like co-ops, mutual banks, neighborhood assemblies, community gardens, and charities in hope of building a new society in the shell of the current one.

Re:The Web We Want by mjevans on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:48PM (#11879888)
I believe in a balance.

The goals of society at large should be reached through agreement.

These goals might be reflected in decreased costs (or even funding) for desired activities and 'taxes' on undesired or activities that should be limited; or maybe through another agreed means.

Individuals, and possibly small groups of individuals, should then be free to choose their own means and methods for realizing those goals (or abstain from that process).

Re:The Web We Want by greendestiny_re on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:20PM (#11879187)
Excellent comment, thank you for posting this description!
Re:The Web We Want by imtringued on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:20PM (#11878633)
>the property should be collectively owned and managed by those working it.

In that case the solution is not communism, the solution is compensating people with stocks or other forms of equity.

Re:The Web We Want by johnny_lunch on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:39PM (#11877655)
"I dream of a world in which the typical worker's wages hadn't been suppressed and decoupled from productivity for the last four decades,"

less than 1% of the population make minimum wage. Most companies, even the big ones you hate, pay well above minimum wage. For instance, All of the fast food places in my area pay $10.15/hour starting. The minimum wage is a few dollars less than this. The free market has pushed the wages higher, because nobody will work for less than this.

"I dream of a world in which the typical worker's wages hadn't been suppressed and decoupled from productivity for the last four decades"

It hasn't been suppressed or decoupled. If you have essentially have the skills that a high school student can perform at 30 years old, you aren't going to get paid enough to have a house, 2 kids, and a car. I see nothing wrong with this. If anything, the wages in the past were artificially inflated. Especially when you factor in unions.

We also are now competing globally. The beloved Internet has also created an environment where we need to compete with someone overseas making much less.

It has many parallels to file sharing over the last decade: musicians and artists now have to compete with the filing sharing sites because of the Internet and this same paradigm shift has now moved to other industries and jobs. The only difference is that I don't see people here on HN crying out to give the artists money through government intervention. Quite the contrary.

"and give it away instead of tryin' to get us all to punch the monkey and win"

I don't really see a problem with so many people trying to make money online. Money has fueled pretty much every technology breakthrough in the last 50 years.

Money also gives you power..over your own life and your own decisions. I started my own business online 5 years ago. I can schedule my own vacations and I don't need to answer to a boss. This is true freedom. I also contribute to many open source projects. When I was working for a living, I contributed nothing.

Your 'dream' would mean that most things online were free, ruining the ability for the independent artist to actually make a living with what they love. The end result would actually mean less freedom because our only choices would be working for the government or a large corporation.

The need for money will not go away any time soon and the person with the money makes the rules.

What we need is more educated people (so they don't have to work terrible jobs for little pay) and more people starting businesses and making money doing what they truly love (creating a more independent society).

Re:The Web We Want by kilroy123 on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:43PM (#11877683)
> less than 1% of the population make minimum wage. Most companies, even the big ones you hate, pay well above minimum wage. For instance, All of the fast food places in my area pay $10.15/hour starting. The minimum wage is a few dollars less than this. The free market has pushed the wages higher, because nobody will work for less than this.

I don't think so. Not according to this[1]. Besides, close to minimum wage is hardly live-able.

[1] http://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-are-characteristics-mini...

Re:The Web We Want by SpaceCadetJones on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:32PM (#11878747)
I don't see why you dragged minimum wage into this? The above poster is correct. Employee productivity has increased immensely the past 40 years, while wages have remained practically stagnant. Meanwhile costs of housing and education continue to rise. This isn't something related to low earners, we're all getting ripped off here.
Re:The Web We Want by cgh on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:29PM (#11878108)
Yes, the junk will hopefully diminish when we get a micro-payment framework that actually works and people will use. Websites are bottlenecked into ads for revenue, to everyone's detriment and sorrow.

Unfortunately, it won't do much to decrease Javascript abuse, unless NoScript becomes some kind of a default.

Re:The Web We Want by JupiterMoon on Friday June 10, 2016 @08:58PM (#11881385)
> unless NoScript becomes some kind of a default.

It is on my systems. The OOOOP's web - that's the one that I experience every single day.

Re:The Web We Want by intrasight on Friday June 10, 2016 @11:55AM (#11877270)
That does about sum it up. Just be glad we have the option to browse with ublock origin. Of course not browsing crappy sites is another option.
Re:The Web We Want by tajen on Saturday June 11, 2016 @02:48AM (#11882392)
> that we have the option to browse with uBlock Origin

Isn't it ...copyright infringement? Sigh... DRM are incoming...

Re:The Web We Want by skylan_q on Friday June 10, 2016 @11:54AM (#11877255)
The web I want is free of junk loaders, javascript tracking ad garbage making my page requests crazy slow, unpleasant and hard to use.

You should try Brave if you haven't already.