News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by theophrastus on Friday June 03, 2016 @02:59PM (#11832410)
The bronze age in that part of the world was around 3300 to 1200BC. Tutankhamen ruled from 1332 to 1323. From that alone we might suppose why a bit of proper iron was more valuable than gold. (the Hittite secret of iron wasn't for another 275 years despite Mika Waltari's poignant novel "The Egyptian" which had the Hittites flashing their iron about the court of King Tut)
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by ptaipale on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:51PM (#11833188)
>Hittite secret of iron wasn't for another 275 years despite Mika Waltari's poignant novel "The Egyptian" which had the Hittites flashing their iron about the court of King Tut

I think several sources are saying that Hittites had some iron artifacts already around 1800 BC and had iron works in 1380 BC?

I don't recall that scene from the book, but anyway, Waltari wrote it during WW II using just library sources in Helsinki; he never set foot in Egypt. (He said "I have lived in Egypt although I've never been there.")

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by prodmerc on Saturday June 04, 2016 @07:07AM (#11835888)
He had the audacity to say that after reading books? /jk

I get laughed at when I'm asked "how do you know so much about [place]?" and the answer is "The Internet" :)

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by matt_wulfeck on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:59PM (#11832808)
I love reading comments like this. Every time I see a historical scene in a movie I always know there's someone out there commenting on the inaccuracies.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by xufi on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:25PM (#11832572)
Interesting I didnt know that at all. Your "proper iron was more valuable" comment reminds me of about a little different period from a documentary that I watched that talked about the time around 700BC where Umayyad empires used silver coins while gold and copper coins were used in Egypt/Syria.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by unimpressive on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:36PM (#11832653)
Not to mention that aluminum used to be more valuable than silver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_monument#Aluminum_a...

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by yongjik on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:54PM (#11832782)
> Napoleon III of France is reputed to have held a banquet where the most honored guests were given aluminium utensils, while the others made do with gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#History

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by xufi on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:01PM (#11832820)
Correct, I believe this was also what I read about how it being more valuable allowed these ancient civilizations who had access to it, to have some more monetary value to their coins and also showed their political influence (Ex: a picture of their leader ) when they traded with other civilizations overseas
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by will_brown on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:11PM (#11832886)
>I read about how it being more valuable allowed these ancient civilizations who had access to it, to have some more monetary value to their coins and also showed their political influence (Ex: a picture of their leader )

Probably 1 of 3 reasons Gold was valuable at all to the ancients:

1. Gold is the most malleable of all the metals, making it easy to coin in extreme detail.

2. Antimicrobial properties (probably known to the ancients).

3. Oh look, its shiny!!! We are no less vain now, than then. Or perhaps no less vain then, than now.

Edit: Sorry I think you were referencing aluminum.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by oblio on Friday June 03, 2016 @05:00PM (#11833241)
You forgot:

0. Gold doesn't corrode/oxydize/otherwise react easily with most common elements, thus keeping it properties over extremely long periods of time.

I doubt they knew or cared about 2). They did care about 1) being malleable and therefore easy to turn into pretty objects. They also cared that 3) it was shiny. But the main selling point was the fact that those pretty, shiny things lasted and could even be passed to the next generation ;)

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by will_brown on Friday June 03, 2016 @05:29PM (#11833405)
Yep. I originally included that and erased it for some reason.

You are probably right about 2 as well, the reasons I like to think they might have been aware: 1.) there were Amphora made of both silver and gold; and 2.) they recognized the antimicrobial properties of other things (example: honey on wounds to avoid infection).

Obviously the Amphora could simply be chalked up to displays of wealth, but I would think they observed the delay in food/beverage degradation in those Amphora compared to standard clay. I guess the funny thing with gold is even today we don't have broad industrial usage (probably good because of the limited supply), though I I suppose trace amounts are used in some modern electronics.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by seanp2k2 on Saturday June 04, 2016 @05:09PM (#11838051)
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by yk on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:54PM (#11833213)
Gold was also the heaviest known element until the middle of the 19th century, which means that all impurities swim at the top and so it is easy to purify simply by melting it. Plus you can assay it by a touchstone. So there are a lot properties that make Gold the best metal for coins.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by ridgeguy on Saturday June 04, 2016 @10:04AM (#11836356)
This only applies to impurities that don't dissolve in, or alloy with gold. For example, silver and copper cannot be removed from gold simply by melting because they form solution alloys that don't segregate in the molten state. Some solution alloys of gold include crown gold (silver, copper, gold) and white gold (palladium, nickel, gold).
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by yoodenvranx on Friday June 03, 2016 @06:21PM (#11833693)
This is actually a crucial point in the later parts of Neal Stephensons Quicksilver/Baroque cycle.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by sambe on Saturday June 04, 2016 @05:13PM (#11838067)
Planet Money did an interesting episode on this, taking the opposite perspective: properties of other elements that made them less suitable.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/07/131363098/the-t...

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by mmanfrin on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:36PM (#11833085)
CE. Umayyads were a muslim caliphate, which would have been pretty odd to exist 1300 years before Mohammed.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by wavefunction on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:44PM (#11832712)
700CE rather than BC.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by tmacro on Friday June 03, 2016 @10:17PM (#11834594)
On a tangentially related point, I attended a Christian private school where we were taught that it stood for Common Error, rather the Era, and that it's was somehow a diabolic plan to subvert Christianity. This among other reasons us probably why I am now an atheist.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by CelestialTeapot on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:08PM (#11832866)
Small point, consistent use of BCE/CE is preferable mixed usage or use of BC/AD. Thou shouldst not cross the streams... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by wavefunction on Saturday June 04, 2016 @01:47AM (#11835108)
BCE/CE is preferable to BC/AD in all cases.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by me_and_you on Saturday June 04, 2016 @08:40AM (#11836117)
No it is not. BC/AD has been in use for hundreds of years and is just fine. You can use BCE/CE if you want but it is no more valid than BC/AD.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by Aelinsaar on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:39PM (#11832669)
So they didn't even need to have a clue as to its origin for it to be precious, that's interesting. Can you recommend any good reading to become acquainted with the technology of that time period, in that region?
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by benbreen on Friday June 03, 2016 @03:56PM (#11832799)
I was interested to find a book about this as well but came up short. However, these articles might be of interest:

J. Waldbaum, "The coming of iron in the Eastern Mediterranean: thirty years of archaeological and technological research" in The Archaeometallurgy of the Asian Old World (1996).

Thilo Rehren et al, "5,000 years old Egyptian iron beads made from hammered meteoritic iron," Journal of Archaeological Science (2013). Link: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313...

One theory about the origins of black stone embedded in the Kaaba in Mecca (whose worship dates back far beyond Islamic times) is that it's also composed of meteoric material.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by Aelinsaar on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:05PM (#11832843)
Perfect, thanks very much for taking the time to respond so helpfully.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by Cozumel on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:38PM (#11833100)
This is a good book on it https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ancient-Egyptian-Materials-Technolo... not been able to find a copy online though.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by InclinedPlane on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:52PM (#11833198)
To make copper from ore you take the ore, which is conveniently typically a very distinctive bright blue/green rock, and you put it in the middle of a hot campfire. The carbon monoxide in the fire reduces the ore and then melting the copper separates it from its impurities. This is similar to the way you'd get tin or lead or several other metals. Then, to make bronze you combine specific weights of raw copper and tin, melt them together, and pour the melted metal into a mold. Now, there are lots of complexities in this process but those are mostly to improve it, and importantly those improvements can be got at through incremental trial and error. This is possible because copper, tin, et al have fairly low melting points compared to the impurities in their ores and compared to silicates (glass), and also because cast bronze is a strong form of bronze.

Iron, on the other hand, is a very different beast. The carbon monoxide trick works just as well with iron, but the relevant working temperatures of iron are way higher than with copper. Which means that you need a more advanced furnace to work with iron. However, the melting point of iron is higher than the melting point of its impurities, so you can't use the same trick you can with copper to purify it. Instead what you have to do is hold iron at around its welding temperature, and you melt the impurities within the iron. What you end up with is an iron "sponge" (or bloom) that you then remove from the furnace and beat with hammers to squirt out all the remaining molten impurities. Worse yet, cast iron is not a particularly good material in comparison to cast bronze, especially for tools and weapons. The proper way to make tools from iron is to make steel, and to forge it (heating it and beating it with hammers and other implements into shape). There are yet additional complexities involving quenching and cooling that can greatly affect the material properties of forged steel. All of these things are very much unlike bronze working and also require a lot of non-obvious steps to improve the process from one step to the next.

All of which is why the bronze age lasted for such a long time, even though some elements of iron working were known (from, for example, working with meteorites). The big advantages of iron working are that the materials (iron ore, etc.) are fairly common everywhere if you know where to find them (compared to the rarity of tin) and iron/steel implements can be mended and recycled extremely easily, even in the field.

As a side note, Tutankhamun is an interesting figure largely due to his father, Akhenaten, who completely upset the entire Egyptian religious system. Akhenaten demanded that the egyptians worship him directly, and he in turn worshiped the god Aten, forsaking all other gods in the egyptian pantheon. This was a big deal due to the importance of the religious bureaucracy at the time, among other reasons. When Tutankhamun (originally Tutankhaten) came to rule after his father's death he restored the old ways, including the importance of the religious establishment. It's thought by many that king tut's lavish funeral gifts are in large part from the religious order, as a thank you to bringing them back to prominence and power.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by rsync on Saturday June 04, 2016 @02:22AM (#11835208)
"As a side note, Tutankhamun is an interesting figure largely due to his father, Akhenaten, who completely upset the entire Egyptian religious system. Akhenaten demanded that the egyptians worship him directly, and he in turn worshiped the god Aten, forsaking all other gods in the egyptian pantheon. This was a big deal due to the importance of the religious bureaucracy at the time, among other reasons. When Tutankhamun (originally Tutankhaten) came to rule after his father's death he restored the old ways, including the importance of the religious establishment."

Which is the origin of his name. We write "Tutankhamun", but his name is literally "Tut-Ankh-Amun" - the Ankh of Amun, or the life of Amun (the God he restored).

"Tutankhamun means "Living Image of Amun"."[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by oblio on Friday June 03, 2016 @05:07PM (#11833281)
However strange this might seem on the news site of a Silicon Valley VC hub, this comment is truly worthy of HackerNews.

Thank you, sir, for this insightful post!

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by InclinedPlane on Friday June 03, 2016 @05:26PM (#11833381)
There's plenty in there that's directly applicable other than just generally interesting. History of technology stuff aside, there's a lesson in the bronze/iron age transition in regards to A/B testing driving development and even agile. It's practically impossible to A/B testing evolve your way from bronze working to iron working, and it's difficult to do so even if you're doing directed development using an agile model. You have to try different things and have diverse, competing projects if you want to make that leap, and you have to allow time for new technologies to reach maturity. That has applicability not just in providing enough resources to develop "next gen" platforms or what-have-you but also in avoiding committing too early to something new before it's fully baked. Even if you could see the hypothetical advantages of iron working way back in the mid-bronze age it didn't make sense to switch until much later.

Some technological advancements are easy to access, others require a lot more investment to mature, and often it's the second category which are superior. Given the general lack of investment in serious R&D by most of SV, and how much the tech industry in general has backed away from pure research, I think there are some applicable lessons there.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by dominotw on Friday June 03, 2016 @04:55PM (#11833216)
> Tutankhamun is an interesting figure largely due to his father, Akhenaten

No. he is famous because his tomb was found intact by Howard carter.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by dragonwriter on Friday June 03, 2016 @05:01PM (#11833256)
"Famous" and "interesting" are two different things.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by dominotw on Friday June 03, 2016 @07:24PM (#11833970)
eh my brain swapped interesting for famous. to make up for that comment here is an interesting tidbit .

The word chemistry/alchemy comes from ancient word for Egypt - Khmet, because they were such experts at metal.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by dredmorbius on Friday June 03, 2016 @07:40PM (#11834034)
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by philwelch on Saturday June 04, 2016 @01:59AM (#11835141)
In domino's defense, being the son of Akenaten isn't necessarily all that interesting in itself. Akenaten is the interesting one; Tutankhamun is just a short-lived pharaoh who returned to normalcy. He's like the Gerald Ford of pharoahs.
Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by dominotw on Saturday June 04, 2016 @10:18AM (#11836412)
>Tutankhamun is just a short-lived pharaoh who returned to normalcy.

Do you think he was he was too young( too developmentally challenged?) to be making such momentous decisions. I've heard that it was mostly his mentors and generals ( HOremHeb ?) making those decisions.

Re:King Tut's dagger blade made from meteorite, study confirms by philwelch on Saturday June 04, 2016 @01:08PM (#11837025)
I'm not an Egyptologist but Tutankhamun was 9 when he became Pharoah and it's hard to imagine any civilization letting a 9 year old actually run things. I'm sure there was a long regency. Keeping in mind his reign (and life) suspiciously ended at age 18, the circumstantial evidence would suggest that he was never really in charge.