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Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by gioele on Sunday March 06, 2016 @12:24PM (#11234549)
> To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer.

How many cars sold in 2016 can be activated without the manufacturer's permission? If you break your engine control module, who, if not the original manufacturer, can provide you a new one that works for your car?

(Serious question, no sarcasm.)

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by the_mitsuhiko on Sunday March 06, 2016 @12:54PM (#11234680)
> How many cars sold in 2016 can be activated without the manufacturer's permission?

What do you mean with manufacturer's permission? The parts are sold independently of the vehicle as far as I'm aware. You can buy loads of ECUs for modern cars on the internet and there is no consequence of installing it.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by toomuchtodo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @01:27PM (#11234806)
Can you get the source code for the ECU? You cannot.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by BufordTJustice on Sunday March 06, 2016 @02:24PM (#11235104)
Armin is right; further more, I suspect a lot of technology like MegaSquirt will continue to improve, and we'll have (thank god) aftermarket ECMs to put into these cars to give the user more control over the vehicle.

We can only hope that a similar movement to Linux on PCs builds up steam up in the automotive space, as many of us like being able to understand, adapt, and improve on our vehicles.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by toomuchtodo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @02:51PM (#11235250)
Until you need verified checksums to drive on a public road.

Using public infrastructure is a privilege, not a right.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by userbinator on Sunday March 06, 2016 @03:10PM (#11235335)
If you're going to go down that route (no pun intended), why not eventually ban everything but officially certified driverless cars from public roads? I suppose it gets into a bit of a philosophical question at some point --- some people just want to get from A to B as quickly as possible (with whatever currently technology allows), while others actually enjoy the driving experience and having control over their vehicle. Some might want the former at times, and the latter at some other times. The former is certainly going to be much safer than the latter, but you give up freedom. Personally, I prefer the latter even if it means I could get killed at any moment because the risk is all part of the experience; not only of driving but really just life itself.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by toomuchtodo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @03:16PM (#11235355)
> If you're going to go down that route (no pun intended), why not eventually ban everything but officially certified driverless cars from public roads?

I agree. That's the way its going to go. People kill 40K/people a year in the US simply driving, and injure/maim hundreds of thousands. There's no way self-driving cars aren't better than that.

Want to build your vroom vroom car? Own the entire stack down to the atoms? You'll get to drive it at track day at a track, not on a public road.

> Personally, I prefer the latter even if it means I could get killed at any moment because the risk is all part of the experience; not only of driving but really just life itself.

Agree, but that sentiment will die a slow death over the next few decades, just as those fond of the horse and buggy are no longer with us.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by c22 on Sunday March 06, 2016 @03:51PM (#11235484)
There likely exists a larger stockpile of fairly well-engineered manually driven cars than there were buggies during the advent of the automobile. This existing stock will likely buffer the robotic revolution of our roads somewhat. Also, I think the convenience delta from self-driven car to "driverless" car is smaller than that from keeping living horses to regular maintenance of an automobile.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by toomuchtodo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @04:21PM (#11235596)
> Also, I think the convenience delta from self-driven car to "driverless" car is smaller than that from keeping living horses to regular maintenance of an automobile.

The number of teenagers with driver's licenses is the lowest in history. Compound that with the 65+ cohort aging quickly, and older drivers being dangerous drivers (lower reaction time).

It's not a convenience delta. Its an experience and safety delta. We are talking tens of billions (if not more) of dollars in savings from taking the human out of the loop.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by tclmeelmo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @04:38PM (#11235669)
> The number of teenagers with driver's licenses is the lowest in history.

The value of such a statistic is questionable given that the minimum age for a license has increased of late.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by tclmeelmo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @05:53PM (#11235991)
From your first link: "Getting a driver's license after turning 16 years old has become a lengthier process in recent years, as regulators instituted more safety hurdles. That has also led to a sharp decline in teenagers who are driving."

That said, this is going sideways because I didn't make a complete and clear post originally. Never mind.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by ryandrake on Sunday March 06, 2016 @06:51PM (#11236232)
> People kill 40K/people a year in the US simply driving, and injure/maim hundreds of thousands.

Not true. People kill 40K people by crashing their cars into them, not by "simply driving". Make crashing your car into people illegal and punish that. No reason to ban driving.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by m4x on Sunday March 06, 2016 @07:42PM (#11236395)
> Make crashing your car into people illegal and punish that. No reason to ban driving.

Except that people don't crash their cars deliberately, it's unintentional and unavoidable.

There's no point making it illegal to do something that only happens accidentally. People will still do it accidentally.

The only thing you can do is mandate changes to the system which remove the possibility that those mistakes will be made. Driverless cars are one possible change that we could make.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by colejohnson66 on Sunday March 06, 2016 @08:54PM (#11236606)
> There's no point making it illegal to do something that only happens accidentally. People will still do it accidentally.

And people can still speed unintentionally by forgetting to check the speedometer every so often, but speeding is still illegal.

Not stopping at a stop sign or red light for a right turn is illegal, but people often times make "California Stops" unintentionally.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by qb45 on Sunday March 06, 2016 @03:38PM (#11235418)
You appear to be advocating troublesome technological solution to a social problem (people going "screw emmisions, I want powerrrr!") which isn't even that widespread.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by toomuchtodo on Sunday March 06, 2016 @03:41PM (#11235435)
I don't believe I am. Verified software on your vehicle is no different than other safety features required by law. Break the law, you lose your right to drive, or you go to jail (depending on the severity of the violation).

I am _not_ arguing you shouldn't be allowed to tinker with your vehicle. You're just not entitled to the source code that runs it (unless you buy a car from a manufacturer that agrees to that as part of the sale agreement), nor are you allowed to make modifications and take it out on a public road if you could cause harm to others.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by ryandrake on Sunday March 06, 2016 @12:35PM (#11234598)
I've never bought a 2016 model car (maybe something changed this year?) so I have never heard about the concept of having to ask a manufacturer to "activate" your car before reading this article.

I buy used cars and repair them myself. I wonder if this disqualifies me from ever owning an electric car? While more recent cars have begun down the troubling path of making less and less user-serviceable, most cars still have either official service manuals or 3rd party manuals (based on tear-downs), and a healthy after-market parts market.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by x0054 on Sunday March 06, 2016 @01:32PM (#11234831)
If you a replacing an ECU on a car with a new one, you have to flash it with the right firmware for the vin number of the car. At least that's the case with Chrysler. My friend works at a Chrysler dealership as a tech, and he says that basically anything you now put in on the car, be it something complex, like the ECU, or something simple, like the windshield washer control module, it has to be programmed. If you don't program it, it doesn't work. On BMW M3 you even need a computer to "program" a new battery.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by maratd on Sunday March 06, 2016 @03:50PM (#11235481)
> On BMW M3 you even need a computer to "program" a new battery.

You're "calibrating" the battery. This has been around on BMWs for a long time (my 2008 535xi had this). If you replace the battery yourself and obviously can't program it in, the car will bitch endlessly, but it'll still work.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by Adirael on Sunday March 06, 2016 @04:39PM (#11235672)
I bought a new (to me) motorcycle last week. It's a 2008 and it has loads of electronics (compared to my old bike). One of them is an immobiliser that deactivates when it detects a transponder inside the key.

The motorcycle comes with three keys: a red one and two black ones. The black ones will turn on the motorcycle but can't be copied. The red one can be copied and is intended as backup in case you lose the black ones. If you lose three the only way to turn the motorcycle on is to get a new ECU from the manufacturer.

I guess most modern cars are the same.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by marssaxman on Monday March 07, 2016 @04:48AM (#11237972)
That sounds terrible. The absence of crap like that is one of the things I love about riding a motorcycle. Does the manufacturer of that motorcycle not realize that they are sacrificing one of their competitive advantages by importing that kind of complexity?

I think maybe I'm not going to sell my 1995 Nighthawk after all! Sounds like it might make more sense to just keep it running, simple and straightforward, without having to worry about all this fragile automation.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by mywittyname on Monday March 07, 2016 @04:53PM (#11242046)
I think it's mostly to discourage theft.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by atomical on Sunday March 06, 2016 @12:27PM (#11234565)
I think it's possible to buy an ECU from a parts dealer. You wouldn't have to necessary go directly through the manufacturer. You might also be able to get one from a junkyard.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by chrisbennet on Sunday March 06, 2016 @01:02PM (#11234709)
It's not uncommon for modern ECU's to need to be "coded" to work with the car.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by sschueller on Sunday March 06, 2016 @02:16PM (#11235067)
Yes but there are also 3rd party tools available to code ECUs, keys etc. Like the VAG-COM for VW and Audi cars. I don't need to ask vw's permission to add a new key to my car.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by lttlrck on Sunday March 06, 2016 @05:06PM (#11235781)
Actually you do need to go to a VW dealer to get a new key paired to the immobilizer. It's been that way since at least 2002.

Edit: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/key-and-remote-replacement...

Tldr: You need the SKC to do it, only VW knows what the SKC is. Or you can hack the immobilizer.

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by feld on Sunday March 06, 2016 @01:19PM (#11234772)
Yes, and if there's a problem with your car that needs an ECU firmware update ... you tend to have to have that done by an authorized dealership.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by atomical on Sunday March 06, 2016 @06:15PM (#11236081)
Not if the update is released. You can buy a cable from China and download the software to do the update.
Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by jdc on Sunday March 06, 2016 @02:17PM (#11235076)
There are independent ECM repair shops out there which helps keep maintenance costs down and cuts dependence on the OEM.

http://www.autocompdirect.com

http://www.autoecmstore.com

Re:Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars by noselasd on Sunday March 06, 2016 @01:27PM (#11234809)
You go to a car junkyard and find the parts you need. Parts from 3. parties aren't that uncommon either.