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Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by lorenzhs on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:09AM (#11026802)
For anyone tuning in now, the event is already over, and German media report that it was a success. I can't find a decent English-language source yet, surely there will be reports on it soon. Most of the German articles have lots of immediately obvious inaccuracies as well right now...

EDIT: There's another post on the front page right now that has a recording of the event: http://www.iflscience.com/physics/watch-germany-switch-their... discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11026559

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by pmontra on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:02AM (#11027182)
The video is in English. You can skip to about 38:00 and watch the ignition sequence and listen to some explanations from the speaker.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by iokevins on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:21AM (#11026532)
From Wikipedia: The Wendelstein 7-X (W7-X) reactor is an experimental stellarator (nuclear fusion reactor) built in Greifswald, Germany, by the Max-Planck-Institut für Plasmaphysik (IPP), and completed in October 2015. It is a further development of Wendelstein 7-AS. The purpose of Wendelstein 7-X is to evaluate the main components of a future fusion reactor built using stellarator technology, even if Wendelstein 7-X itself is not an economical fusion power plant.

The Wendelstein 7-X reactor is the largest fusion device created using the stellarator concept which was the brainchild of physicist Lyman Spitzer. It is planned to operate with up to 30 minutes of continuous plasma discharge, demonstrating an essential feature of a future power plant: continuous operation.

The name of the project, referring to the mountain Wendelstein in Bavaria, was decided at the end of the 1950s, referencing the preceding project from Princeton University under the name Project Matterhorn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendelstein_7-X

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by mabbo on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:56AM (#11026727)
The tl;dr of this is that if the Wendelstein works, and works well, we're potentially only a few years away from building a fusion reactor that generates large amounts of clean power at extremely low cost.

If it doesn't work, well, they'll keep trying.

It's like when SpaceX landed that rocket over the ocean (without a barge) then let it crash- if they succeed, the cool stuff comes next.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by petra on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:22AM (#11026882)
Between this, and moltex , which claims to have designed an intrinsically safe molten-salt nuclear reactor same capital costs of coal, hence cheaper than coal , the future of clean energy look bright.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by mng2 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:39PM (#11028543)
>we're potentially only a few years away

The press loves to hype this sort of thing but I think if you talk to most scientists in the field they'll be much more circumspect about getting to commercial fusion. Personally I think it's at least twenty years out, and that's if everything goes well, which it will not.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by celticninja on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:03AM (#11026773)
im not sure they let it crash, i think that bit was an accident.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by maxerickson on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:22AM (#11026879)
They didn't stick a barge under it for the early tests:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9_booster_landing_tests...

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by maaku on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:23AM (#11026887)
Different event.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by ajmurmann on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:52AM (#11027555)
Can you imagine the chancellor our president coming by for a launch event when you run your software for the very first time that you've never run before not even I an integration test after coding on it for years?!
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by Phlarp on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:07PM (#11027659)
I suspect they had a very robust testing regime for both the software and the hardware used in this project. As well as more formal mathematical proofs of the physics to back up their engineering.

A better analogy might be for rockets / spaceflight-- where individual systems are rigorously tested independently, but a live launch is the only place that they all come together and have to function as one tightly coupled system.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by engi_nerd on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:20PM (#11027773)
> A better analogy might be for rockets / spaceflight-- where individual systems are rigorously tested independently, but a live launch is the only place that they all come together and have to function as one tightly coupled system.

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but your analogy is a bit poorly chosen.

Speaking from my days as a sounding rocket telemetry engineer, we performed lots of tests of the individual systems, as you say. But then we also put everything together and performed several "sequence tests" where the entire vehicle (minus the motor) was assembled and tested as if the countdown were real. All events were triggered as if the vehicle were in flight, and experiment systems were tested to ensure they would power on as expected and provide real data. If we had any deployables, the deployment mechanism would be tested to the maximum extent possible. These sequence tests happened off the rail (in special testing facilities) and on the rail (fully assembled in launch configuration, with a motor).

Basically, if you wait until the actual launch to perform integration tests of all of this, you WILL fail. There are too many pieces that need to function in concert to expect them to all work without integration testing.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by the8472 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:55PM (#11028084)
There have already been helium plasma tests in the previous months. This is just the first hydrogen plasma firing.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by frik on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:37PM (#11028527)
Well, that's why it's the second run. The first one can be watched there: https://youtu.be/R_kPM1J-F0Q?t=3m49s

(read the comments below their videos on their youtube channel to understand the difference)

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by numlocked on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:26AM (#11026908)
I've read a lot about the design and construction of the 7-X, but I've never read why there are so many "portholes" all over the thing. There are a comically large number of them, everywhere, of totally different sizes, shapes, and at weird angles. Why are so many holes/ports necessary, and why is there so little homogeneity?
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by sbierwagen on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:51AM (#11027071)
It's an experimental device, the ports are needed for instrumentation. A utility-scale fusor would have many fewer of them.

The ITER vacuum vessel also looks pretty funny, though much more symmetrical: https://www.iter.org/mach/vacuumvessel

The ITER design is also dramatically complicated by the need to have robots fit in there to replace blanket modules.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by db48x on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:54AM (#11027095)
It's a scientific instrument, not a power plant. The portholes are to allow all the measurements and tests that they plan to do over the life of the machine.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by the8472 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:58PM (#11028106)
> Why are so many holes/ports necessary

It's designed to be maintained from the inside. So you need to get replacement/upgrade/experiment parts inside where you need them.

> and why is there so little homogeneity?

stellarators are highly asymmetrical

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by theoh on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @05:29PM (#11030383)
It does appear to have five-fold rotational symmetry, at least in the way the coils are distributed.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by dest on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:07AM (#11026795)
Pictures of amazing W7X magnets, if I am not mistaken https://imgur.com/a/We3fk
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by dalbin on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:34AM (#11026600)
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by mariuolo on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:45AM (#11026674)
Am I missing something or the actual turning on was not shown?

Perhaps later today?

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by superkuh on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:15AM (#11026841)
It was shown. It lasted for a bit less than a second. They are not running it longer right now because they cannot handle the thermal load.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by mariuolo on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:19AM (#11026863)
Well, it's on youtube. Will check again, thanks.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by cos2pi on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:47AM (#11026680)
> You can follow the event per livestream on 3 February 2016 at 2.45 p.m. CET.

The program should begin at any time.

EDIT: Err, CET... UTC+1. So, perhaps it is over?

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by ajmurmann on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:49AM (#11026690)
Yeah, it should have started almost an hour ago and actually be just about over.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by Geee on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:42AM (#11027017)
Time-lapse video of the building process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJpSrqitSMQ
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by maremmano on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:21AM (#11026871)
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by lorenzhs on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:30AM (#11026929)
There's an egregious mistranslation in there. In a section where nuclear fusion is compared to fission, the German article reads

    Das ist ungefährlicher und hinterlässt weniger stark verstrahlten Atommüll 
the translation is

    This is dangerous and leaves less severely contaminated nuclear waste
whereas it should be

    This is *less* dangerous and leaves less strongly contaminated nuclear waste
The translation completely negated the sentence. The rest is pretty okay-ish.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by bassislife on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:53AM (#11027558)
less dangerous? or "not more" dangerous?
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by captainmuon on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:02PM (#11027625)
literally more non-dangerous
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by Eduard on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:00PM (#11028125)
literally "safer"
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by DasIch on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:32PM (#11028479)
Safer has a connotation of safety whereas ungefährlicher has a connotation of danger.

If something that would have killed you before, is less likely to do so now you would call it ungefährlicher or less dangerous but you wouldn't call it safer unless you're intending to be funny.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by _ph_ on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @02:03PM (#11028753)
Native German here: ungefährlich means "not dangerous" also "safe" or "harmless".
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by bassislife on Thursday February 04, 2016 @09:42PM (#11039054)
so "=== gefahrlos" ?
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by lobster_johnson on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:09AM (#11032337)
Not really a good explanation. Ungefärlich is more like "harmless" in English. Yes, it contains the word "harm", but there's a modifier that inverts its meaning.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by lorenzhs on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:41AM (#11032898)
it's ambiguous in German as well, but both: a fusion reactor has very little radioactive waste (only the components that get hit by neutrons from the fusion reaction are activated, and hard-to-activate materials are being used there), and it's also less radioactive than the waste produced by a fission reactor.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by frik on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:33PM (#11028485)
On 10th December 2015 the have done almost the same experiment: https://youtu.be/R_kPM1J-F0Q?t=3m49s
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by maga on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:02AM (#11027180)
What are the results? I've read they were going to keep the plasma stable for half an hour, have they been able to do that?
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by obsurveyor on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:45AM (#11027492)
No, they want to do this by 2020.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by IanCal on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @08:46PM (#11031430)
A bit of googling didn't hit on much, but is there a plan for what happens in the future if this continues to go well? In the same way that ITER would be followed by DEMO then hopefully more commercial reactors.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by thrownaway2424 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:47AM (#11027050)
How do you take energy off one of these?
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by sbierwagen on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:59AM (#11027147)
Just by using it as a regular heat source to boil water, then running the steam through turbines, like any other thermal power plant.

There are schemes to convert charged particle flux directly into electricity, but I'm not aware of any fusion power experiments that use them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_energy_conversion

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by thrownaway2424 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:59AM (#11027608)
That was a little bit vague. How does the heat actually get out of this thing and into the water? If the plasma is confined in a magnetic field, not in contact with the shell, and the shell is super-cooled to 4K, I'm a little lost on how it would work in practice.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by avar on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:32PM (#11027880)
If you step outside during the day you can have first-hand experience of a contained fusion reactor that manages to heat things up at a distance.

That's how we'll extract energy from fusion reactors, but with approximately 1 AU less distance.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by Frenchgeek on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @02:17PM (#11028880)
( unless things go comically wrong )
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by the8472 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @03:25PM (#11029474)
> and the shell is super-cooled to 4K

I think only the shells of the superconducting coils are cooled to those temperatures. The rest of the system, including the containment walls, are water-cooled.

In a real system you would also have neutron radiation carrying away energy that could be captured with additional layers of water.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by JulianMorrison on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:19PM (#11027765)
The plasma is confined but its glow is not.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by elif on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:34PM (#11027903)
i have absolutely no authority to speculate, but i would guess you'd vent plasma to a heat exchanger by diverting only part of the stream with a controlled EM field, either periodically or continuously. You'd have to do it anyway to remove the helium and inject some fresh tritium and deuterium, right?
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by sbierwagen on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @05:24PM (#11030336)
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by jasonwatkinspdx on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:57PM (#11028706)
http://www.helionenergy.com plans to do direct conversion. It's a follow on to previous university work, dunno if they tested/measured that part.
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by WorkLobster on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @03:03PM (#11029299)
The current front-runner seems to be a blanket of water surrounding the reactor vessel, which is heated by the stray neutrons from the fusion reaction.

It has the double-win that if Lithium is added, the high energy neutrons end up breeding more Tritium fuel.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by NikolaeVarius on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:57PM (#11028711)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Heating

The one I heard of was the neutron blanket method

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by thrownaway2424 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @02:19PM (#11028904)
Isn't that how they heat the core to initiate fusion? That's the opposite of what I'm asking.

There's absolutely no question nor doubt that every fusion research reactor in history has been capable of sinking a tremendous amount of power :)

Edit: ah, I imagine you meant to direct me to the later "Power production" paragraph.

Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by anc84 on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @09:33AM (#11026598)
> Fehler: Die Webseite 'www.ipp.mpg.de' ist momentan nicht verfügbar
[deleted]
Re:Livestream of Wendelstein 7-X Stellerator being turned on by lorenzhs on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @10:58AM (#11027133)
No, that was the first helium plasma in December. Today's event was the first hydrogen plasma.