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Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by oniMaker on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @10:41AM (#11020080)
If you are convinced of the latter point, then it's a great opportunity for you to invest in oil and benefit from your own wealth transfer.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by plusbryan on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @10:48AM (#11020138)
What's the best way to capitalize on this assumption? USO?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by manyhats on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:00PM (#11020639)
If you're trading, USO is fine.

If you're investing on a longer-term horizon (a year or more), the monthly futures roll where the USO fund sells the current month's oil contracts (because it doesn't want the actual oil to be delivered) and buys the following month's oil futures (normally at a higher price than what it sold the current month's at) will eat into any returns you get from price appreciation.

To put some numbers to the example, let's say the fund has 100 barrels of oil, and the current month's price is $20, and next month is $21. When it rolls the contracts, it sells 100 barrels for $2000, and buys 95 barrels, with $5 left over.

Fast forward a month. Prices have gone up by $1 for all months oil. It will sell 95 barrels for $22 ($2090, plus the prior month's leftover $5) and buy 91 barrels for $23, with $2 left over.

Fast forward another month. Let's say you owned the entire fund and decided to liquidate it. Prices for your contract have gone up another $1, so you sell your 91 barrels for $24, receiving $2184, and adding the extra $2 in cash you had gives you $2186. That's a 9.3% return in two months.

Compare that to the price of oil as reported in the news - it's the front month contract, so on the face of it, oil has gone from $20 to $24 (20% increase) while you've only made 9.3%.

The numbers are somewhat exaggerated here, and it can work the other way (current month more expensive than forward month) but is uncommon. This is why USO has historically been a bad long-term proxy for the price of oil.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by AstroJetson on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:12AM (#11020310)
I always suggest Vanguard funds - Vanguard Energy Fund Investor Shares:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=0051&...

Note that this is SUPER RISKY investment fund. If you look at the chart it has major swings up and down. The fund is down 20% for 2016 (yikes!). But if you had held it from 2012 -> 2014 you would have gotten a 40% return on your investment.

I like Vanguard funds since they have a low management cost to them and they tend to be a little more conservative in their selection.

Good luck, remember me when you make your million!

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by Ntrails on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:31AM (#11020433)
Other passive investment funds with similar or lower fees and appropriate target sector are available

Also consider whether you want to invest in oil related companies or in the price of oil itself (which is just as possible).

NB. I have nothing for or against Vanguard funds and have heard a few people supporting them.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by tamana on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @04:16PM (#11022681)
>Good luck, remember me when you make your million!

Oldest trick in the book: fove out free advice and take a share of the wins, but don't pay a share of the losses ;-)

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by AstroJetson on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @05:52PM (#11023364)
No, the oldest is to give out free advise, get a commission on the buy and then win or loose get a commission on sale.

That's the key underpinning to the stock market. Just ask any broker.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by protomyth on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:18PM (#11021229)
Vanguard is actually quite good just for the nice web site and ease of use.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by mywittyname on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @05:19PM (#11023140)
I just exchanged a bunch of other funds for VGENX. These companies are some of the most profitable in history. Even with the recent massive price collapse, this fund has outperformed the market since 1984.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by encoderer on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:50AM (#11020557)
USO is an ETF based off of a basket of futures contracts. The problem with owning USO is that there is basically inefficiency when rolling futures contracts and there is a some decay in the price. If you truly want to play in oil, best to use the futures themselves. Futures are the highest leverage instruments available, so be careful to note their size, but there is nothing more risky about futures than the equivalent notional value of stocks.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by jonknee on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:04AM (#11020242)
Or a basket of energy companies like XLE.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by snowwrestler on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:19PM (#11020791)
Be careful, though, because when oil reaches its end game, the price will fall and never come back up. Are we there yet? Or is this just temporary drop? There's no way to know, now.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by kbenson on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:33PM (#11020884)
Wait, wouldn't the scarcity of oil force a premium on the price? Wouldn't a dwindling resource with lots of legacy uses and equipment requiring it command even higher prices than when it's abundant?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:35PM (#11020905)
The oil end game isn't that we run out; its we find something better (electric cars) and oil loses its value and becomes a stranded asset in the ground.

Good for humanity, bad for O&G industries.

EDIT: I'm fairly confident this is the start of the end. The US Congress extended the production tax credit for renewables for 5 years, along with Tesla's Gigafactory ramping up production, which means we're going to be awash in renewable-generated power and have the capacity to store it (in cars, and in stationary storage).

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by snowwrestler on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:02PM (#11021117)
Yes, that's what I meant. The oil game as we know it today--financially speaking--ends when future supplies are no longer considered to be the most important constraint on economic growth.

That's very hard to analyze because the issue is not just how oil is sourced and used, it is how people on average expect it to be sourced and used.

On the supply side, while producers like the Saudis are trying to undercut fracking with low prices now, they can't make people forget about fracking. If the Saudis try to raise prices again, then fracking becomes a viable competitor again.

On the demand site, the world is not going to forget about global warming. Population growth will keep slowing. Infrastructure will keep getting built and keep getting smarter.

At some point the supply and demand sides will diverge enough to knock oil from its privileged position as THE key resource for the economy. This is similar to earlier essential resources like food, clothing, water, shelter, mining, etc. We still spend a lot of money on these things, but there is no expectation that they are guaranteed growth industries.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by ssharp on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:14PM (#11021688)
The area I live in was supposed to be headed towards a fracking boom and it mostly fizzled. The combination of dropping prices and lower-than-expected output from test wells kept the drilling far more isolated than it was supposed to.

I suspect if prices rise again, those test wells may have proved to be profitable. However, the oil companies came through and leased tons of acreage already and spent lots of money on the leases. Even if prices come back, many of the leases would have either expired or the gas companies would have to pay for their extension provisions. Given the state of the companies that started leasing (CHK: down 86% since they leased my father-in-laws old farm property), I don't think they have the money to do that. Even if the original leaser sold the leases off, which happened in many cases, the new owner would still have to pony up the extension and then start drilling again, exposing themselves to OPEC under-cutting them again.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by dragonwriter on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:10PM (#11021170)
> The oil end game isn't that we run out; its we find something better (electric cars) and oil loses its value and becomes a stranded asset in the ground.

I think its about equally likely that the end game is that the price of oil (ultimately driven by energy to extract each unit) goes up until other things that are known are more cost effective for most uses; this doesn't make it "lose its value" -- the use value remains the same and the market clearing cost per unit is high -- but it shrinks the size of the market (there may be some uses for which it is still cost effective, but not as many) and is still bad for the oil & gas industry.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by pyre on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:44PM (#11021925)
Once industries transition away from tooling that uses gas/oil, there will be significant cost to re-tooling back to using oil or gas. At this point oil/gas losses value because there is a barrier to using it. If all cars on the road are electric cars, then oil refined into gasoline won't see much use and the price will drop (relative to the costs to harvest it). It's not like a rise in the price of electricity will send people with 100% electric cars running to the gas pump.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:49PM (#11021970)
> It's not like a rise in the price of electricity will send people with 100% electric cars running to the gas pump.

And, with the cost of renewables continuing to drop, along with government incentives, I don't ever see the cost of electricity going back up. Ever.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by pyre on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @06:00PM (#11023406)
Well, my point was that the 100% electric cars don't run on gas. They would have to purchase a new car to take advantage of the gas prices, which is a higher barrier than just choosing to fill up with "electric fuel" or "liquid fuel" when your car is running low.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by tamana on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:34AM (#11027398)
Why do local utilities beg people to reduce their electricity usage?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:31PM (#11028467)
Because the cheapest watt to generate is the one you didn't have to generate in the first place.

On the other hand, Texas has so much wind power locally that they can't ship out of the state yet that some utilities give power away for free at night:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environmen...

As more renewables come online (and they will, I assure you), this will further drive down the per kwh cost.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by kbenson on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:00PM (#11021097)
That's an interesting argument, but as the p[rice drops, less companies will be willing to drill it, and that will provide an upward pressure from lack of supply, will it not? At some point I imagine it will stabilize at a new price (based on then demand), I guess the question is do we have models of something like this happening before?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by ktRolster on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:07PM (#11021637)
> I guess the question is do we have models of something like this happening before?

Yes, all the major banks (Goldman, JP Morgan) have models for this kind of thing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2015/09/14/goldman-...

http://247wallst.com/energy-economy/2015/11/09/jpmorgan-slig...

Eventually the price will stabilize, somewhere in the $35 - $65 range, probably.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:37PM (#11021381)
You're assuming there is no demand destruction.

Keep in mind: China economy cooling off, fuel efficiency standards, shifting demographics (older populations drive less).

We reached peak oil, it just wasn't supply. It was demand.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by jessaustin on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @03:23PM (#11022221)
We reached peak oil, it just wasn't supply. It was demand.

Nifty redefinition, but I take this to confirm that the Peak Oil aficionados were kooks, just as they seemed to be. They and Paul Ehrlich will eventually be joined by many others in my "confirmed kook" bucket, but so far my "strongly suspected kook" bucket seems pretty accurate too.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by api on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:37PM (#11020917)
Agreed but I doubt we are anywhere close to this. The majority of the world's critical transportation infrastructure is oil powered and the sunk cost is massive. Electric vehicles are only a blip. Oil has decades left as the "rate limiting reagent" of the industrial world.

This is definitely a buying opportunity for those with the money to make such investments.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by nikdaheratik on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:38AM (#11024912)
We're never going to stop using petroleum (for fertilizer, plastics, other chemicals, etc.), but hopefully we'll stop burning it for fuel. While marginal sources like tar sands could likely never be used, the rest will most likely be used for something. Unless there's some revolution in Genetic engineering that lets us make all of these useful products from microbes.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by fweespeech on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @10:46AM (#11020125)
The problem with this is no sane human would think they could guess the timing.

Being too early is the same as being wrong.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by sbov on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @10:58AM (#11020201)
Isn't this only a problem when shorting? You can buy and hold for forever.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by vox_mollis on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:08AM (#11020274)
If you stand for delivery, you pay to store and insure it. If you don't stand for delivery, you pay contango to roll over the contracts. Going long commodities with uncertain date of sale always costs money.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by csomar on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:20AM (#11020367)
You are comparing oil/energy to a stock (a proof of ownership). They are too different things.

You can't simply buy "Oil". So if you buy an oil contract I'll expect, on the long run, to pay fees for storage at least.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by noir_lord on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:30AM (#11020423)
Ever seen the story where the guy messed that up and they delivered the coal?

http://thedailywtf.com/articles/Special-Delivery don't know if it's true and not that bothered as it's still fairly hilarious.

I think there would be legs in a Silicon Valley/IT crowd style show about market traders.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by soylentcola on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:52AM (#11020577)
Reminds me of this recent article where the author attempts to do just that: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-03/that-time-...
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by leakybit on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:47AM (#11020533)
No, but you can buy oil options and play them just like stock options.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by aianus on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:08AM (#11020281)
Storing oil isn't free (and by extension, neither is rolling over futures positions indefinitely).
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by frandroid on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:15PM (#11020755)
Storing oil shares is free though.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by ci5er on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:20PM (#11021239)
You mean ETFs? If not, what is an "oil share"? Futures contracts have maturity dates. At the end you sell them (at a price you might not like), roll them over (not free or even necessarily cheap) or take delivery on the oil (also usually not cheap, depending on your facilities).
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by oniMaker on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @11:02AM (#11020228)
You could buy and hold until a stock went to zero, for example.

Edit: Whoever is downvoting obviously has never seen this happen. There was just an article about it on HN the other day, describing how Dragon lost it all when the company they sold to plummeted to zero stock value.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by clock_tower on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:01PM (#11021585)
That's certainly what I'm up to. MLPs are on sale right now -- and they give interesting benefits (large guaranteed dividends and capital deprecation on your income tax forms) if you're willing to buy and hold. I'm aiming for 10 years to financial independence; I might get there in 5, with the way things are going right now.

I don't think there's much risk of bankruptcy for high-cap MLPs, and for low-cap ones the risk is priced into the stock (and then some). The price of oil has to recover sooner or later; the Saudis don't have an economy unless they have high oil prices, and they're the ones behind the current glut. Kuwait is already negotiating with OPEC and non-OPEC producers to raise oil prices again...