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Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by snowwrestler on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:19PM (#11020791)
Be careful, though, because when oil reaches its end game, the price will fall and never come back up. Are we there yet? Or is this just temporary drop? There's no way to know, now.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by kbenson on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:33PM (#11020884)
Wait, wouldn't the scarcity of oil force a premium on the price? Wouldn't a dwindling resource with lots of legacy uses and equipment requiring it command even higher prices than when it's abundant?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:35PM (#11020905)
The oil end game isn't that we run out; its we find something better (electric cars) and oil loses its value and becomes a stranded asset in the ground.

Good for humanity, bad for O&G industries.

EDIT: I'm fairly confident this is the start of the end. The US Congress extended the production tax credit for renewables for 5 years, along with Tesla's Gigafactory ramping up production, which means we're going to be awash in renewable-generated power and have the capacity to store it (in cars, and in stationary storage).

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by snowwrestler on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:02PM (#11021117)
Yes, that's what I meant. The oil game as we know it today--financially speaking--ends when future supplies are no longer considered to be the most important constraint on economic growth.

That's very hard to analyze because the issue is not just how oil is sourced and used, it is how people on average expect it to be sourced and used.

On the supply side, while producers like the Saudis are trying to undercut fracking with low prices now, they can't make people forget about fracking. If the Saudis try to raise prices again, then fracking becomes a viable competitor again.

On the demand site, the world is not going to forget about global warming. Population growth will keep slowing. Infrastructure will keep getting built and keep getting smarter.

At some point the supply and demand sides will diverge enough to knock oil from its privileged position as THE key resource for the economy. This is similar to earlier essential resources like food, clothing, water, shelter, mining, etc. We still spend a lot of money on these things, but there is no expectation that they are guaranteed growth industries.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by ssharp on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:14PM (#11021688)
The area I live in was supposed to be headed towards a fracking boom and it mostly fizzled. The combination of dropping prices and lower-than-expected output from test wells kept the drilling far more isolated than it was supposed to.

I suspect if prices rise again, those test wells may have proved to be profitable. However, the oil companies came through and leased tons of acreage already and spent lots of money on the leases. Even if prices come back, many of the leases would have either expired or the gas companies would have to pay for their extension provisions. Given the state of the companies that started leasing (CHK: down 86% since they leased my father-in-laws old farm property), I don't think they have the money to do that. Even if the original leaser sold the leases off, which happened in many cases, the new owner would still have to pony up the extension and then start drilling again, exposing themselves to OPEC under-cutting them again.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by dragonwriter on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:10PM (#11021170)
> The oil end game isn't that we run out; its we find something better (electric cars) and oil loses its value and becomes a stranded asset in the ground.

I think its about equally likely that the end game is that the price of oil (ultimately driven by energy to extract each unit) goes up until other things that are known are more cost effective for most uses; this doesn't make it "lose its value" -- the use value remains the same and the market clearing cost per unit is high -- but it shrinks the size of the market (there may be some uses for which it is still cost effective, but not as many) and is still bad for the oil & gas industry.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by pyre on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:44PM (#11021925)
Once industries transition away from tooling that uses gas/oil, there will be significant cost to re-tooling back to using oil or gas. At this point oil/gas losses value because there is a barrier to using it. If all cars on the road are electric cars, then oil refined into gasoline won't see much use and the price will drop (relative to the costs to harvest it). It's not like a rise in the price of electricity will send people with 100% electric cars running to the gas pump.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:49PM (#11021970)
> It's not like a rise in the price of electricity will send people with 100% electric cars running to the gas pump.

And, with the cost of renewables continuing to drop, along with government incentives, I don't ever see the cost of electricity going back up. Ever.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by pyre on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @06:00PM (#11023406)
Well, my point was that the 100% electric cars don't run on gas. They would have to purchase a new car to take advantage of the gas prices, which is a higher barrier than just choosing to fill up with "electric fuel" or "liquid fuel" when your car is running low.
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by tamana on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @11:34AM (#11027398)
Why do local utilities beg people to reduce their electricity usage?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @01:31PM (#11028467)
Because the cheapest watt to generate is the one you didn't have to generate in the first place.

On the other hand, Texas has so much wind power locally that they can't ship out of the state yet that some utilities give power away for free at night:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environmen...

As more renewables come online (and they will, I assure you), this will further drive down the per kwh cost.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by kbenson on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:00PM (#11021097)
That's an interesting argument, but as the p[rice drops, less companies will be willing to drill it, and that will provide an upward pressure from lack of supply, will it not? At some point I imagine it will stabilize at a new price (based on then demand), I guess the question is do we have models of something like this happening before?
Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by ktRolster on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @02:07PM (#11021637)
> I guess the question is do we have models of something like this happening before?

Yes, all the major banks (Goldman, JP Morgan) have models for this kind of thing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2015/09/14/goldman-...

http://247wallst.com/energy-economy/2015/11/09/jpmorgan-slig...

Eventually the price will stabilize, somewhere in the $35 - $65 range, probably.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @01:37PM (#11021381)
You're assuming there is no demand destruction.

Keep in mind: China economy cooling off, fuel efficiency standards, shifting demographics (older populations drive less).

We reached peak oil, it just wasn't supply. It was demand.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by jessaustin on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @03:23PM (#11022221)
We reached peak oil, it just wasn't supply. It was demand.

Nifty redefinition, but I take this to confirm that the Peak Oil aficionados were kooks, just as they seemed to be. They and Paul Ehrlich will eventually be joined by many others in my "confirmed kook" bucket, but so far my "strongly suspected kook" bucket seems pretty accurate too.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by api on Tuesday February 02, 2016 @12:37PM (#11020917)
Agreed but I doubt we are anywhere close to this. The majority of the world's critical transportation infrastructure is oil powered and the sunk cost is massive. Electric vehicles are only a blip. Oil has decades left as the "rate limiting reagent" of the industrial world.

This is definitely a buying opportunity for those with the money to make such investments.

Re:Oil Crash is Kicking Off One of the Largest Wealth Transf... by nikdaheratik on Wednesday February 03, 2016 @12:38AM (#11024912)
We're never going to stop using petroleum (for fertilizer, plastics, other chemicals, etc.), but hopefully we'll stop burning it for fuel. While marginal sources like tar sands could likely never be used, the rest will most likely be used for something. Unless there's some revolution in Genetic engineering that lets us make all of these useful products from microbes.