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Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by hyperion2010 on Friday January 29, 2016 @05:41PM (#10999110)
I know the TSG gets lots of attention and lots of people seem to take it as the fundamental word on how evolution works. This is simply not true. TSG presents the rather limited view of a geneticist thinking about genes and is directly at odds with other understandings of how evolution works such as genes as followers [0]. I often have a visceral reaction to such individualistic and incredibly western views of how evolution proceeds because they seem to be wilfully blind to the fact that for 99+% of the time evolution does not operate at the level of individuals, in fact, if you are in one of those rare events where individuals DO matter your likelihood of extinction is incredibly high and as a species you really don't want to be there. If the perspective offered in TSG has a place anywhere in evolution it is long before there were multicellular organisms or perhaps even cells.

I was inspired to this rant the other day when watching a video of tortoises flipping each other over [1]. Early in tortoise evolution there are HUGE benefits to a male that doesn't flip his buddies over and gets all the ladies as a result. No amount of kin selection can prevent this if there is not already a significant latent potential in the organism's behavioral repertoire to cooperate (flip). The notion that a single gene is somehow in control is a complete and utter fiction, SNPs are not robust ways to build behaviors or even to create phenotypic diversity. The variation that leads one tortoise to flip the other over is likely the product of thousands of genes and is far more continuous than a simple 'flipping gene.' In fact, if you see flipping behavior at all it is extremely likely that the developmental program and the genome of the organism as a whole is structured such that the behavior will arise repeatedly in different individuals as a result of a number of different minor changes in gene expression. If a flower grows, its is more likely to be the case that the ground is good for growing flowers than that the flower suddenly innovated.

tl;dr If you want your tortoises to flip, you're going to need more than one gene and you can't think about evolution on an individual basis.

0. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21257223, https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eva_Jablonka2/publicati... 1. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tortoise+flip

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by qb45 on Friday January 29, 2016 @06:04PM (#10999248)
> I was inspired to this rant the other day when watching a video of tortoises flipping each other over [1]. Early in tortoise evolution there are HUGE benefits to a male that doesn't flip his buddies over and gets all the ladies as a result.

I'm not sure if you are actually disagreeing with TSG.

Dawkings repeats several times in the book that to him evolution is not about individuals, but about genes. Heck, even the title is "selfish gene", not "selfish tortoise".

Your tortoise benefits from screwing over his competitors, but his genes might not. Like, for example, suppose there is a combination of genes for noncooperative tortoise. He leaves others to die so the next generation is all assholes like him and they die out because there is noone to help when they inevitably get in trouble. Boom, genes are gone.

In fact, TSG also tries to analyze how cooperative and noncooperative strategies may coexist in single species and tend towards some equilibrium, which depends on costs/benefits of particular behaviors. And, iirc, such crude strategies like "always defect" often ended up outsmarted by subtler ones.

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by hyperion2010 on Friday January 29, 2016 @06:19PM (#10999328)
Yes, I guess in the right light a selfish gene operating locally ends up promoting cooperative behavior for exactly the reason suggested to the local detriment of the individual (It is just that there is unlikely to be any single gene that can do that). It would be interesting to see what the carrying capacity of such defector genes is as a function of population size. I usually interpret 'selfish' to mean genes that produce defectors (ie no flip) since there is a local benefit to the organism (and thus the gene itself over short timescales) but Dawkins does use it a bit more broadly. I still find implying telos to genes is misleading since the same gene (allele) can produce opposite effects when surrounded by different environments and thus any function it may appear to serve is not intrinsic but conditional.
Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by qb45 on Friday January 29, 2016 @06:32PM (#10999405)
> I usually interpret 'selfish' to mean genes that produce defectors (ie no flip) since there is a local benefit to the organism (and thus the gene itself over short timescales) but Dawkins does use it a bit more broadly.

Dawkins seems to define "selfish gene" as "one caring about its long term survival and spread", whether individual tortoises like it or not. Because that's what ultimately counts - contemporary tortoises are shaped by genes which survived millions of years by whatever means happened to be successful, which needs not to be defection.

And, btw, you may want to actually read TSG, it's pretty cool :)

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by IsaacL on Friday January 29, 2016 @07:54PM (#10999862)
"And, btw, you may want to actually read TSG, it's pretty cool :)"

I second my sibling poster. You are clearly a very smart person who has no qualms about confidently misrepresenting a book you haven't read. It's not a charming combination - acquire some rigour in your thinking (for your own sake, if nothing else).

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by robotresearcher on Friday January 29, 2016 @07:29PM (#10999729)
> wilfully blind to the fact that for 99+% of the time evolution does not operate at the level of individuals

TSG hypothesis is that evolution happens at the level of genes (or memes, or whatever the replicant unit is). Not individuals, not groups, but genes. The individual level and group level evolutionary effects we see emerge from this, since a gene's prospects become intertwined with those of its neighbours. It is not well-described as a western, individualistic view. The 'selfish' is misleading if the negative value of the word is taken literally. Genes have no agency. The neo-darwinian view is simple but subtle, and is not well taught in schools. TSG is a great introduction to this way of thinking.

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by msteinert on Friday January 29, 2016 @05:56PM (#10999209)
> Early in tortoise evolution there are HUGE benefits to a male that doesn't flip his buddies over and gets all the ladies as a result.

I believe Dawkins would argue this doesn't result in an evolutionarily stable strategy. Refer to chapter 10 of the Selfish Gene, I think it directly answers the concerns you have.

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by dominotw on Friday January 29, 2016 @06:26PM (#10999369)
prisoners dilemma blew my mind when I read it as a teenager.
Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by nilkn on Friday January 29, 2016 @06:48PM (#10999498)
TSG is a surprisingly clever book for its size, especially considering it's neither a formal textbook nor a treatise in any way on evolution or biology, and it comes with almost no prerequisites.

I think you'll find it does more to address your concerns here than you're expecting. It even includes a decent amount of game theoretic discussion with a view towards explaining cooperative and noncooperative behaviors as well as a more general notion of an evolutionarily stable strategy.

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by garthferengi on Sunday January 31, 2016 @08:30AM (#11006323)
"The Selfish Gene" does not argue that genes produce selfish individuals, or that all traits are simple Mendelian traits governed by single genes. You've either not read TSG or have fundamentally misunderstood it.

The still mainstream evolutionary biology it describes does not require any particular relationship between genotype and phenotype, just that one exists. Polygenic traits are just as well described by it as simple Mendelian traits. It also accommodates a range of factors like plasticity, epistasis, and gene by environment interactions that complicate the relationship between genotype and phenotype.

Additionally, your understanding of "selfish" as genes which produce defectors in cooperative scenarios is incorrect. "Selfish" is a metaphor to describe the fact that to be favoured by selection genes must contribute to a phenotype that increases their own propagation (to the degree that they are not constrained from doing so, and issues like linkage and pleiotropy aside).

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by emmelaich on Friday January 29, 2016 @05:58PM (#10999218)
Buuut, TSG does not say evolution operates at the level of individuals.

Furthermore I don't see how your turtle flipping example negates the TSG idea. (but I'm very far from an expert on the topic)

Re:In Retrospect: The Selfish Gene by has2k1 on Friday January 29, 2016 @08:51PM (#11000105)
The title seems to have misled you. You do not say whether you have read the book, you seem to criticise ("limited view") and yet hint ("you can't think about evolution on an individual basis") at some fundamental agreement.

Assuming you have not, if and when you read it you will find that there are no easy holes to poke. Dawkins doesn't just defend the gene, he derives it and then explains how it is the unit of persistence and why it is the persistence that matters.