News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by manigandham on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:36AM (#10788460)
Side note: usernames should just be emails these days, they're unique and save all the effort of needing another made up name.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by scrollaway on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:41AM (#10788470)
Theoretically yes, but it's not as simple as that. Every identity can have more than one email associated with it, and emails can change over time. So "username == email" is fine as long as the concept of a username mutating is fine.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by manigandham on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:49AM (#10788489)
I don't see a problem, it just means you can login with multiple emails then. They're still unique to you. LinkedIn and Facebook and other services already do this.

A username/real name can still be used as the "name" if this is an online community or something similar.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by kbenson on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:18PM (#10788820)
LinkedIn and Facebook can do this because your email is not your username. There likely isn't really a username in those systems, just a user id. Almost all systems have a user id, but the distinction here is slightly different. Instead of a user record which has an id, username and possibly full name, Facebook likely has a user record with an id, a (display) username, and then there is a separate set of auth records with the multiple ways you can authenticate to the account, such as emails and passwords, API tokens, phone numbers, etc.

It may not sound like a big distinction, but there is a big distinction there. Instead of your username being your email address, they've abstracted the authentication from the core user record such that usernames are not used for authentication, so don't have to mutate if the authentication identifier (email address, phone number) changes, just some auth settings. This is obviously a much more extensible and robust way to deal with authentication over time, but it's also obvious it's much more complex than a simple username/password pair.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by nileshtrivedi on Thursday December 24, 2015 @06:44PM (#10789940)
You are describing the tripartite identity pattern: http://habitatchronicles.com/2008/10/the-tripartite-identity...
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by kbenson on Thursday December 24, 2015 @07:22PM (#10789993)
For the most part. My example was more a bipartite pattern, because I was covering the authentication aspects, not the entire identity structure (which I believe Facebook and LinkedIn would implement as the article outlines). For a system where you don't need to track multiple social identities, and where you interact within that system through your identity on that system, that's probably enough.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by manigandham on Thursday December 24, 2015 @09:29PM (#10790224)
Yea maybe I should've been more specific but I was just talking about the user's perspective: usernames aren't necessary for most sites and just means one more thing they have to create and remember.

Re: implementation - I don't see the big distinction. These are all just related properties of a master user id number. Those properties can be anything and any of them (in any combination) can be used to login.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by stickfigure on Thursday December 24, 2015 @06:24PM (#10789907)
What you're describing is "use a synthetic primary key for your User", which is something even the most naive junior web developer does automatically these days. There's nothing special about LinkedIn and Facebook except that they went through the trouble of adding additional authentication mechanisms. You can too, no matter what you treat as a "username".
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by kbenson on Thursday December 24, 2015 @07:28PM (#10790006)
I'm not entirely sure where you got the impression I was implying it was hard and esoteric, and only Facebook and LinkedIn could do so. I was simply noting that there's a difference between email as a username and email as part of one or more authentication tokens, and the differences in design and how it affects the possible future need of users to change what are often usable as authentication (email addresses, phone numbers, etc).
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by toyg on Thursday December 24, 2015 @01:00PM (#10789001)
> They're still unique to you.

Nope. Most free email providers out there (including gmail) have policies for username expiration, some even quite aggressively (like one month without login). "Me" on one of these services might not be "me" in three months' time, but you-website won't know that and will happily send a password reset link to my old email.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by maaku on Thursday December 24, 2015 @01:31PM (#10789123)
Also, people share email addresses.

Really, they do.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by eximius on Friday December 25, 2015 @09:03AM (#10791248)
That thought makes me feel dirty.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by usrusr on Friday December 25, 2015 @09:00AM (#10791245)
Many email addresses are dumb forwards without the eventual receiver (the "identified") even having an account directly related to the domain where the forwarding is done. Would those be usable for persona or only the "backend" address with an actual user login that collects forwarded emails and is ideally never given to a third party?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by moron4hire on Friday December 25, 2015 @08:37AM (#10791187)
These are not unique to email addresses as identifiers, because people change over time. You can't even count on people's real names staying the same over time, as something as simple as marriage gives many an impetus to change it. Any database that assumes immutability of one's visible identity is broken by design.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by k__ on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:54AM (#10788516)
Wouldn't a new email be as unique as the old one? I mean mutating is only a problem if usernames collide.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by emidln on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:44AM (#10788477)
Services that don't require email for functionality shouldn't require email addresses at all. An excellent example of this is reddit.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by skrebbel on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:49AM (#10788492)
Functionality such as "forgot password"?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by sp332 on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:53AM (#10788513)
Completely optional. Like HN for example.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by CM30 on Thursday December 24, 2015 @11:55AM (#10788727)
So if someone forgets their login details, they're basically screwed? Because I've used some sites like that, and they're a royal pain whenever something goes wrong. For example, TV Tropes didn't used to have a password reset, so every time something went wrong, you'd pretty much have to either register a new account or bug someone on the forums about it.

Same with another site I was on, except the usual solution was seemingly 'find one of the staff on another site they're a member of and send them a message there'. Made for a nice security hole too, since people could (and did) impersonate others and get given their accounts as a result.

You need some sort of email (or other contact information, like a phone number) simply so people can get their account details back in a semi secure way.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by danneu on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:27PM (#10788849)
Agreed. Whenever I've made email addresses optional, it just means I can expect to do a bunch of manual "forgot my password" support. And it's hard to justify responding with "sorry, can't help you since you didn't input an email" when you're in the early stages of growth and your one active user's remember-me session finally expired.

These days I prefer to require an email address. That way, the few users that want to opt-out can insert a bogus one.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by sp332 on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:11PM (#10788795)
You can have a password reset feature, but it would be optional. If the person decides not to include their email, they would have to bug a mod who would maybe reinstate them. You could also use SMS or a twitter handle or even snail mail instead of requiring an email address.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by danneu on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:42PM (#10788923)
It's not that obvious how to delegate out a task that involves giving someone full access to an account when they ask for it.

With an on-site "Contact Support" form, you can at least compare their IP address with historical login addresses. But that comes with its own weird problems like, for example, a sibling claiming their brother's account from the same household to read their juicy PMs or steal their credits or whatever. Or giving moderators access to more sensitive information and power than necessary.

Password reset being "optional" just means that people are going to use your support system for it when they eventually forget their password or the initial registration session expires. Reddit and HN have optional email while your new website's only user just forgot their password without an email address on file. What are you going to do when they ask for help off site?

And by the time you're fielding SMS and Twitter handle password resets, you may wonder why you didn't just put more emphasis on the email address input field. Now you're polishing your SMS or Twitter handle reset system that has far more narrow appeal/usage than an email system.

Of course, at the end of the day, it depends on the type of service you're operating. But "make email optional" is a trade-off, not universally good advice. Spend too much time in the HN echo chamber and you'll just do things that work against your users.

People can opt out via http://10minutemail.com/.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by sghodas on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:30PM (#10788867)
You'd rather share your phone number or home address than your email address?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by sp332 on Thursday December 24, 2015 @03:07PM (#10789440)
Instead of hiding my identity from the site, maybe I'd rather hide my use of the site from my email provider.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by cwyers on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:55PM (#10790361)
They have access to every e-mail you send and receive, if you don't trust your e-mail provider to that extent you should probably change them.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by return0 on Thursday December 24, 2015 @01:07PM (#10789023)
I thought so too. But then people started forgetting their passwords, so i made email mandatory. People will rarely write down/take note of their password to a website that they "just want to check out".
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by mrec on Thursday December 24, 2015 @02:17PM (#10789277)
If they just want to check your website out, why are you forcing them to choose a password anyway?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by EGreg on Thursday December 24, 2015 @05:34PM (#10789784)
Indeed. People shouldn't have to choose a password the first time they use your site. Our login flow in the open source http://qbix.com/platform lets the user check out the site without having to go through signup -> go to email -> click confirmation link -> back to site -> choose a password -> recover context.

In fact, most of our app users don't even have to sign up! They are invited via sms or email, and given a link that works like a capability. Clicking that link established an account for them and they get a full experience right away, complete with all their followers (people who uploaded their address books and had their number or email in there).

This is instant engagement of the user.

We don't even require a password for when they download our native app. We just go to Safari and do an OAuth 2.0 flow with our own site and give an access token to the app. That access token can be for 100 years.

They only need a password when their cookie expires or if they want to access the site from another device.

In that case, it's good to have asked for the email address or phone number in the beginning. That's the user's identifier.

Our system also works with Facebook connect, etc. but that's not the coolest part. The coolest part is having the user choose their own Qbix app as the identity provider to authenticate with, so they can visit new sites and they are instantly greeted by name, find friends on there etc. without the site knowing anything about them on other sites. That's the holy grail :)

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by EGreg on Thursday December 24, 2015 @05:25PM (#10789757)
How do they prevent Sybil attacks and DOS?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by MarkMc on Friday December 25, 2015 @02:10AM (#10790626)
Perhaps by limiting the rate at which password-free accounts can be created. If this limit is exceeded then the system switches back to creating user accounts in the normal way.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by EGreg on Friday December 25, 2015 @03:56AM (#10790762)
And what if they want a lot of users? How do they know which are legitimate?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by akerro on Thursday December 24, 2015 @01:33PM (#10789131)
w8, I had to provide email address?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by drdaeman on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:32PM (#10788878)
What's the benefit? And, more than this, why do I must provide anyone my mail address? Why do I have to provide it at all?

I understand and I'll provide my email address, my JID, my phone number and whatever else I'm willing to provide, if I want someone to contact me. But contact details are technically completely unnecessary to just have an account.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by striking on Thursday December 24, 2015 @03:13PM (#10789451)
Password reset. Services need to identify you in another way to authenticate you that isn't your password.

If you don't want that, use Mailinator and forget about it. It's insurance against stupid support requests is what it is.

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by drdaeman on Thursday December 24, 2015 @05:25PM (#10789758)
They don't need to identify me, they want to identify me. And throwaway emails are not a solution to the problem, they're just workarounds.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by EGreg on Thursday December 24, 2015 @05:36PM (#10789793)
They need to have a way to reset passwords for people that scales.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by cmurf on Thursday December 24, 2015 @02:18PM (#10789282)
I agree. We're doing this wrong. Airport "free" WiFi wanting to know my date of birth, and cranky weird crap like that.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by CaptSpify on Thursday December 24, 2015 @02:40PM (#10789356)
And im just going to lie anyway. How many people tell the truth on those?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by jessaustin on Saturday January 02, 2016 @01:43PM (#10827267)
I do the same, but how long will it be until that's some sort of TSA violation that will get us on a list?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by ams6110 on Thursday December 24, 2015 @12:53PM (#10788970)
They are not necessarily unique over time. There's no guarantee that [email protected] today is the same person it was a year ago or a year hence. Or in the case of services like mailinator, even unique at all.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by amsb on Thursday December 24, 2015 @11:27AM (#10788622)
It depends on the security needs of the service. Email addresses are discoverable making it easier for an attacker to target a particular account while usernames give the user the opportunity to further insulate themselves from being discovered on a service and potentially brute-forced or cross-ite attacked. Perhaps less important for a social sharing service and more important for a financial service, but it depends on the user.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by tripzilch on Sunday December 27, 2015 @04:41PM (#10798869)
Visiting my parents for Christmas, I helped my mom set up her new win10 laptop. (and she's real good with computers for someone her age whose job wasn't in IT)

Lesson here for anyone wanting to use emails for usernames:

Make it really clear that you're asking for the email as an ID, as the username. Otherwise this will incline people to enter the same password as their email because they think they're asked to log in. Even if they know it's important not to re-use passwords over different logins.

To make this anecdata N>1, I teach computer stuff to kids (ages 8-12, generally) and they tend to make the same mistake.

(working on semi-public computers, I am glad I get to teach them about Private Windows: "if it's not your computer, only enter your password on a window that shows the little mask/sunglasses-guy")

Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by MarkMc on Friday December 25, 2015 @02:28AM (#10790653)
Except that users are really bad at choosing strong passwords. A significant percentage will even use the same email/password combination accross multiple sites. For a site which contains sensitive financial or medical data, it is better to issue a 'username' that contains random characters. (This is the technique the UK government uses when users log in to pay tax)
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by Silhouette on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:55AM (#10788523)
That depends on context, of course. As an obvious example, if you're actually selling something, you very much do need to know the real name and possibly real address of the person you are contracting with.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by manigandham on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:58AM (#10788537)
Yes, I was only talking about usernames and how they're often unnecessary for most sites, especially the login process.
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by izacus on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:56AM (#10788532)
So what happens when I want to change my email? I lose all my accounts?
Re:Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona by manigandham on Thursday December 24, 2015 @10:59AM (#10788540)
You... just update your email. Or add the new one if the service supports multiple.