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Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by dev1n on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:18PM (#10691349)
how about Finland pays people to work instead of this? If you can't find a job, Finland pays you 800 a month to get to work on infrastructure projects.

In early Colonial America everyone had to help out in some way, or else they were denied food. I don't know why we never extended that idea.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by run4yourlives2 on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:32PM (#10691465)
I don't think returning to state indentured slavery is in any way a good thing.

If the state wants to build a road, it should pay qualified people the market rate to build a road, not use a pool of people hard on their luck.

Basic Income allows people to manage their own life in a more cost effective way than the welfare and other social programs we already provide, plus it provides incentive and opportunity to better their position through work/school.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by webjprgm on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:51PM (#10691667)
Does it really? Students in high school could easily take the lazy approach of believing that education doesn't matter because they will always have the basic income anyway. Noble people will better themselves under either system. Does a basic income system increase or decrease the number of people who aspire to better themselves?
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by run4yourlives2 on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:58PM (#10691724)
I suppose it depends where you come from in terms of whether or not you believe the poor are mooching and lazy or simply disadvantaged.

Presented with the ability to continue education without needing to worry about putting food on the table, most people do in fact continue their education. Basic income is "basic" by nature. Very few will aspire to be a basic income earner for their lives. Even better though, even if they DO choose this path, they can choose otherwise at a later date and correct that mistake. That's the beauty of the system.

BTW, this is borne out by the data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINCOME

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by frogivenmistake on Monday December 07, 2015 @03:37PM (#10692497)
They still have the opportunity to correct their decision if it turns out to be a bad one.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by facetube on Monday December 07, 2015 @03:24PM (#10692410)
> Noble people will better themselves under either system.

No true scotsman.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by khgvljhkb on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:45PM (#10691599)
Hmm slavery is having people work against their will. Paying people a (low) salary for working is not illegal.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by run4yourlives2 on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:49PM (#10691645)
Paying someone a salary below minimum wage is, in fact, illegal.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by Napapijri on Monday December 07, 2015 @02:11PM (#10691845)
800 euros per month for a 35 hour work week is illegal.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by khgvljhkb on Friday December 11, 2015 @05:35AM (#10716323)
It's legal, but labeled "internship" ;).

800 for 20h/week is not illegal.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by lumberjack on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:29PM (#10691442)
Because big employers are against it. Because it gives more leverage to labour, diminishes labour competition and raises the overall cost of labour, i.e. wages. And of course big employers have lots of political power.

What big employers rather prefer is EITC which is a rather blatant way of getting the tax payer to subsidize their cost of labour.

And these days governments are forbidden from doing anything in house. They are forced to contract everything to the lowest bidder in the private sector because the logic goes that it's cheaper that way.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by rm_-rf_slash on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:50PM (#10691656)
>In early Colonial America everyone had to help out in some way, or else they were denied food. I don't know why we never extended that idea.

I will believe that you believe in your argument when you volunteer to give up all of your assets and live on whatever work you can get. I imagine you might find yourself forming arguments about it limiting your own efficiency and output.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by spatulan on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:25PM (#10691403)
Because its morally bankrupt?
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by yummyfajitas on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:28PM (#10691427)
It's morally bankrupt to give people a job?
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by bweitzman on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:50PM (#10691660)
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by cpursley on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:29PM (#10691446)
And taking someone else's money at gunpoint is not? Taxes ain't voluntary, you know.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by run4yourlives2 on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:32PM (#10691469)
Of course it's voluntary. You are more than welcome to leave the country.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by cobaltblue on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:43PM (#10691573)
The US still demands my taxes 10 years after I leave the country.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by cpursley on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:50PM (#10691652)
Minor correction: Not 10 years after you leave, but for 10 years after walking into a US embassy and relinquishing citizenship. Only then, you have the privilege to pay tax to a state you no longer are a citizen of for the next 10 years. For all other US citizens working overseas, you owe uncle sam a tax return every year no matter if it's for 5 years or 50. Only two nations in the world tax their citizens who live abroad. The other one is an African dictatorship.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by doktrin on Monday December 07, 2015 @02:08PM (#10691819)
> Minor correction: Not 10 years after you leave, but for 10 years after walking into a US embassy and relinquishing citizenship

What specifically are you guys referring to? I can't find any reference to a 10-year tax obligation after renouncing US citizenshp. Is this part of the post 2008 expatriation tax?

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by doktrin on Monday December 07, 2015 @03:02PM (#10692234)
Thanks for the info. That was a frustrating read.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by LunaSea on Monday December 07, 2015 @02:15PM (#10691873)
What would stop you from not paying ?
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by doktrin on Monday December 07, 2015 @03:04PM (#10692252)
Presumably the long arm of the US judicial system. I doubt they'd send drones after you in a non-extradition country, but short of that there's a lot they could potentially do to make your life very unpleasant.
Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by khgvljhkb on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:45PM (#10691594)
So you can choose:

* Pay up to the state

* Get thrown in jail

* Go in exile

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by run4yourlives2 on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:47PM (#10691620)
?

Or option 4 (by far the most popular) - emigrate to another area.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by CuriousSkeptic on Monday December 07, 2015 @02:04PM (#10691781)
Under the assumption that everything you have and get is just and fair I agree. It is a strong assumption though, and It deserves to be examined.

Externalities: Do you contribute to pollution? If so should you not then pay a fair price in compensation to us all for that privilege?

Rule of law: Do you derive rent, or benefits, from property? Are you not dependent on society to define those property rights, and enforce them? Should you not pay a fair price in compensation for that privilege?

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by lordnacho on Monday December 07, 2015 @02:55PM (#10692185)
I would imagine back then a lot of work was unspecialised, and anyone could do it. If you're building a wooden bridge across a stream, even dummies who aren't carpenters can help carry logs.

These days you have engineers and cranes using special materials.

Re:Finland Is Considering Testing Giving Every Citizen €800 ... by wvenable on Monday December 07, 2015 @01:26PM (#10691415)
Adding unqualified people to any project will likely cost a lot more than 800 a month.